Pistol storage requirements

Seamus357

I am thinking of applying for a pistol certificate. I was told you need a gunsafe and a monitored alarm. Is this the law, or more Garda policy masquerading as law? Remember they tried this a couple of years ago for all firearms? We got letters with our renewal forms to the effect that we would need to buy gunsafes before we could renew our licences. Can the Guards dictate the storage conditions of any firearm to you? What is the law on this?

Sparks

The law states that the local Super can in effect put whatever conditions he wants on your licence. If he says you need a safe and an alarm, you need a safe and an alarm. A few years ago when the NARGC took the Commissioner to court in Dunne v. Donoghue, which is what you were referring to, the law did not say the Commissioner could give guidelines to Superintendents; the outcome of that case said the local Super couldn't be overruled - and could put whatever individual preconditions on the licence that he felt necessary. With the Criminal Justice Act 2006, the secure storage requirement became law, though what constituted "secure storage" was not defined.

sixpointfive

Why would you even consider having a firearm in this day and age without secure storage? Would i be right in saying that from your post that you dont want to have a gun safe?? Or is it the fact that you dont want to be told what to do by the powers that be?

Genghiz Cohen

Probably the expense and bother of getting one in the first place.
But it is very reassuring to have one.

Seamus357

Its not that I don’t want to buy a gunsafe and an alarm, I already have a gunsafe and I intend buying a monitored alarm. What I am worried about is the extra security measures that some supers demand for full-bore rifle and especially pistols. Some want CCTV cameras and separate alarms installed for the safe and the house. The cost can very quickly run into the thousands. This is probably their way of reducing the number of pistols in their area.
Besides I don’t have much faith in monitored alarms. My brother’s alarm has often gone off for all kinds of reasons. The alarm company are very quick off the mark but you wouldn’t want to be waiting on the guards to arrive.
I don’t have a problem with obeying laws that have been passed by the Oireachtas. What I don’t like are individual superintendents acting as law makers in their own personal little kingdoms. I like black and white written laws that are consistence across the land.

sixpointfive

I have two centrefire rifles and a pistol among other things and i have never been asked for either a gun safe or an alarm in my present home (although i have 2 safes, alarm and camera system)but had several inspections in my last adress, and rightly so in my view,im not one for making it impossible for people to get theese firearms but it should not be easy on the other hand,the further legally held firearms can be kept from criminals the better, my firearms officer here is totally sound but i have heard some horror stories, thankfully i have yet to experience difficulty, in my opinion it should me MANDATORY to have a gunsafe in order to obtain any cert, but thats just me.

peter-pantslez

seamus

iv recently got my first pistol cert and the super sent the crime prevention officer out to my house to check on my security.

i have the safes and the monitored alarm but one thing he wanted me to get was a 24 hour contacted put on the safe. so now that sensor is armed all the time even if the rest of the house is disarmed and i have to disarm the safe before i open it. eircom can sort this out for you.

the super also asked me to go in to him for an interveiw to see what i was like, but that could just be my super

sixpointfive

Peter, if you dont mind me asking, what district are you in??

fishdog

a 24 hour contacted put on the safe. so now that sensor is armed all the time even if the rest of the house is disarmed and i have to disarm the safe before i open it. eircom can sort this out for you.

BTW this can be done with almost all alarm systems used in Ireland. Hardwired alarms (not wireless) are inherently more secure, reliable and cheaper to buy.

bullets

I wanna see constancy and cold hard written requirements
across Ireland and not the whim of an individual.

I have no issues with an normal alarm and a gun safe.
Its a 3rd party monitored alarm I have beef with where you
have to pay a monthly fee. And if you need
a sensor on your safe whoever wants whats in the safe
is already in your house!!!!!

I DONT want to go back to eircom as my phone and internet is with Smart
and I dont want to Pay to have a monitored alarm or phone watch.

I have just installed my own argos Yale system that has an auto dialer.
For 300 Euro you get a system with PIR's and Door Contacts and it
will phone you if it goes off. I think this should be enough.

I needed to get this Not because I wanted a Pistol but ONLY because
I wanted my rimfire ammo limit increased from 100 to 500 Rounds!!!
It seemed a pretty simple and standard request but I was refused
before I had an alarm and told I would be allowed 200 but not 500.
It makes no logical sense whatsoever.
Better still within the same few weeks as I was making my request
a bloke I work with gets a Sig P229 without any questions asked about his security and not even a visit from the local Gardai. Where is the consistency.

I have a gun safe for my rifle and hopefully soon to be shotgun and also
some expensive airsoft toys. I also have just purchased a 2nd small safe
to store my ammo and bolt from my rifle so its separate and hidden.
I dont leave spare keys lying about the house either and there is
always someone home as the girlfriend works from home. I am a parnoid
type of bloke who would gladly spend loads of cash on a full security system
if I had the money but I dont.

I intend to upgrade the security at some stage if I ever get some spare
cash but my shooting vs the girlfriends constant nagging to spend money
on getting new carpet/tiles and a garden wall after 8 years of not
doing so I am guessing is going to win out.

~B

bunny shooter

bullets wrote: »

I have just installed my own argos Yale system that has an auto dialer.
For 300 Euro you get a system with PIR's and Door Contacts and it
will phone you if it goes off. I think this should be enough.~B

You will find to your expense that your opinon doesn't count for much.

You will find that your CPo's opinion is what counts and I believe they will not accept these alarms from Argos etc. Has to be registered installer. Alarm has to be monitored by a monitoring centre with the safe on a seperate zone

bullets

bunny shooter wrote: »

You will find to your expense that your opinon doesn't count for much.

You will find that your CPo's opinion is what counts and I believe they will not accept these alarms from Argos etc. Has to be registered installer. Alarm has to be monitored by a monitoring centre with the safe on a seperate zone

Your reply feels like your of the opinion that Argos or Yale alarms somehow are not worth a sh*t compared to some other brand that perform the same function or are you implying that is what the local Gardai will think that and not your good self? maybe I am reading
too much into the way your worded things.

Why does it need to be a registered installer? on what grounds?
just for an ammo increase? or are you refering to getting a Pistol.

I Always need to read your replys a few times cos half the time
I dunno if your having a go at me or if your raising valid points.
It may be just your posting stlyle or your way with words.
(no insult intended)


~B

bunny shooter

bullets wrote: »

Your reply feels like your of the opinion that Argos or Yale alarms somehow are not worth a sh*t compared to some other brand that perform the same function or are you implying that is what the local Gardai will think that
and not your good self?

Why does it need to be a registered installer? on what grounds?
just for an ammo increase? or are you refering to getting a Pistol.

I Always need to read your replys a few times cos half the time
I dunno if your having a go at me or if your raising valid points.
It may be just your posting stlyle or your way with words.


~B

I have seen the Yale alarm and it looks very good, considered getting one myself.

Alarm installers ar now registered and pay for a licence to the Private Security Authority I believe.

I asked my CPO before installing my alarm system and he advised me of the requirements eg registered installer, monitored by monitoring centre, seperate zone etc. Not my opinion but his and from conversations with friends of mine in other areas they all got same advice, seems to be standard req,'s. The Yale is an auto dialer I was advised this wasn't acceptable. No point in debating or arguing with CPO IMO

So you see not my opinion on req.'s. I asked for advice before purchasing and realised the Yale system, though cheaper wasn't going to pass the CPO.

You are paranoid, why would I be having a go at you ? Do you go to a rugby match and presume all the lads in the scrum are talking about you ?

bullets

Cool all good info and good to know.

Yes I am parnoid :rolleyes:

Dont intend currently to get a pistol but the info
will be good to know if the same rules apply when
I goto centrefire.

~B

rrpc

Having talked to a CPO at length I would say that they are usually pretty practical guys. A lot of what they require is based on what they see on a visit.

For example, if you have a safe that's reletively easy to find, they'll start looking for the belt and braces approach because they reckon that if the safe can be found quickly, they need to slow the burglar down some other way and hence alarms on safes etc.

A lot of this is also dependant on the type of safe installed. The guy I spoke to was not very impressed with the infac type safe, he admitted that it met the standard, but he just felt it was far too easy to get into.

As a result, you will find some guys having to have a safe alarm and others not, and other apparent inconsistencies that are not inconsistent at all when you get into the detail.

fishdog

The guy I spoke to was not very impressed with the infac type safe

This surprises me. The gardai seem to reccomend a safe that is at least 2mm thick and the infac (from what I have seen) is 3mm minimum. I have always been impressed with infac. They seem to be solid, have a very good lock, and at least 5 thick bars that lock across.

What make or type of safe did he like?

fishdog

I have just installed my own argos Yale system that has an auto dialer.
For 300 Euro you get a system with PIR's and Door Contacts and it
will phone you if it goes off. I think this should be enough.

AFAIK this alarm system does not meet current EN standards.

For about the same money you can buy one that will. I would suggest an Astec 63DV. They are a quality alarm system. Free one day installation courses are available PM me for details:D:D No rocket science if you have a very basic understanding of wiring you will figure it out. BTW this does not mean that your CPO will accept it, although I have seen them accept it in the past.

I am not in the trade and do not sell these systems.

peter-pantslez

the auto dialler porbably wont be accepted because i was told it had to be independently monitored by me CPO. the auto dialler would be monitored by yourself.

rrpc

fishdog wrote: »

This surprises me. The gardai seem to reccomend a safe that is at least 2mm thick and the infac (from what I have seen) is 3mm minimum. I have always been impressed with infac. They seem to be solid, have a very good lock, and at least 5 thick bars that lock across.

What make or type of safe did he like?

He didn't actually say as the subject didn't come up, my safe being of a more robust construction. I think he said that an angle grinder would make short work of one plus they were fairly easily removed from the wall with a crowbar and that was about it.

I think the position of the safe can make a big difference in this regard. If you can't get a crowbar or an angle grinder at it, and it's not too easy to find, then any safe will be more than adequate.

fishdog

rrpc

I think he said that an angle grinder would make short work of one

Or a consaw would do the job even quicker, but this would apply to almost any safe.

rrpc

plus they were fairly easily removed from the wall with a crowbar and that was about it.

This depends on how well it is fixed to the wall, not what type of safe it is.

rrpc

I think the position of the safe can make a big difference in this regard. If you can't get a crowbar or an angle grinder at it, and it's not too easy to find, then any safe will be more than adequate.

Very true. I talked to a reformed criminal about this recently. He appeared on the "Late Late Show" years ago talking about his criminal career. He is now a lock smith that sells safes and locks etc!! I had an interesting discussion with him about how people get into safes etc. and he made inportant points:

1) Many people fail to fix the safe properly to the wall.
2) Making the safe harder to find is very important
3) Locks on safes are rarely "picked" or "cracked", generally they drill the safe or cut it. So put it in a position that makes it hard for them to "work on".

fishdog

peter-pantslez

the auto dialler porbably wont be accepted because i was told it had to be independently monitored by me CPO.

That depends very much on where you live. I can tell you for a fact that it is accepted in some areas.

the auto dialler would be monitored by yourself.

....and up to three other people.

Our man in Havana

Does it ring or send SMS on activation?

fishdog

It rings.

Bond, PM sent .

rrpc

fishdog wrote: »

Or a consaw would do the job even quicker, but this would apply to almost any safe.

Not if the safe is made of thicker steel or double wall construction, or even thicker steel at the weak points like door jambs and hinges.

This depends on how well it is fixed to the wall, not what type of safe it is.

Again, the heavier the steel or the better the construction, the harder it will be to remove. A determined effort with a crowbar will buckle 2mm steel very easily and once you have movement, your rawlbolts won't stand up for long.

1) Many people fail to fix the safe properly to the wall.
2) Making the safe harder to find is very important
3) Locks on safes are rarely "picked" or "cracked", generally they drill the safe or cut it. So put it in a position that makes it hard for them to "work on".

These are the most important considerations. If it takes the thief 10 minutes to find or access your safe, then that's ten minutes less he has to work on it.

fishdog

Again, the heavier the steel or the better the construction, the harder it will be to remove.

True. If you make large washers out of steel and put them behind the nuts it will help alot.

A determined effort with a crowbar will buckle 2mm steel very easily and once you have movement, your rawlbolts won't stand up for long.

Yes, I was thinking more of the 3mm infac safe you were talking of.

IMHO rawbolts are not as good as chemical fixings such as those made by Hilti. You can even use 6 x 14mm threaded rod holding the safe onto a wall each with large 3mm washers if you wanted. This would stand up to alot of abuse. All of this can be bought in Chadwicks cheap enough.

fishdog

Originally Posted by fishdog:
Or a consaw would do the job even quicker, but this would apply to almost any safe.

Originally Posted by rrpc:

Not if the safe is made of thicker steel or double wall construction, or even thicker steel at the weak points like door jambs and hinges.

Like I saw almost any safe, given enough time. Time is the key though. Slow them up enough and they wont have enough time.

peter-pantslez

fishdog wrote: »

peter-pantslez

That depends very much on where you live. I can tell you for a fact that it is accepted in some areas.

fish dog im was just going on what i was told and going by my area

fishdog

Good luck with it!

cavan shooter

I used the following document when sorting my storage requirements, however I don't have pistol. The additional item I put in was a very small cctv camera (size of a rolo sweet) I got this in Maplan.


http://police.homeoffice.gov.uk/news-and-publications/publication/operational-policing/firearms-handbook.pdf?view=Binary


If the link doesn't work look on the BASC website. My alarm is an auto dialer,