Schools Rugby Munster

Co45

Tuddie wrote: »

The main difference between leinster and munster schools has been the age limit for SCT players which was 6 months older in Leinster for many years. This was rectified in the last year. At the 150 year Blackrock celebration before Christmas 09 a PBC team from Cork beat every Leinster school of note including Belvedere, St Marys, and Clongowes etc. The you or we are better is meaningless-like all things it is cyclical. I have spoken to two successful leinster schools coaches that now coach in Munster and they indicate that although the public support is greater in Leinster the standard is about the same there as in the top 4 munster schools.

Just FYI, I was helping out for one of the teams you mentioned in the preseason and when they played PBC they basically fielded a 4th and 5th yr team who hadn't started SCT rugby before to see how they'd do.
As for the standard being the same I don't know but for the past 2 years the Irish youth squads have been very Leinster dominated, for whatever reason. The school I was helping out played 3 of Munster's best school's a few seasons ago just before they had a first round game in the Leinster Cup and comfortably beat them when both teams were playing their full squads. They also trashed Methodist who are supposedly the best team in Ulster.

Tuddie

In fact the U18 schools team represents the schools not the youths team.The schools team standard is acknowledged to be well above the youths. The U19 team cannot be counted as it included college and early academy players.If you look at the representation on U18 schools team from Munster and leinster it is evens despite more schools from leinster. The point I'm trying to make is that there is nothing between them except the hype that surrounds leinster schools rugby perpetuated by the media sycophants who are frequently leinster schools old boys.FYI the current St Michaels team which has made it to the SCT final played PBC before Xmas and were also hammered which again probably means little as it is performance in your own provence's cup competition that matters.

irishbucsfan

Tuddie wrote: »

The U19 team cannot be counted as it included college and early academy players.

The U19 team is selected based on player performance during their time in the schools system and in fact half of that team consists of players who are still in the schools system. It plays to a much higher standard than that of the Youths and Schools teams and is regarded by many coaches and talent assessors as the first real indication of a players ability to perform at the level expected of a professional rugby player. You can't not count it because it includes early academy players because those players are in that squad based on their performance during their schools career. That's why it's so hard to break into representative rugby as a club rugby player, more so in Leinster than anywhere else.

Tuddie

In 2009 U19 schools squad against australia, 6 munster, 7 leinster, 7 ulster, 2 conn. Same story evens.This is also consistent with the senior team story where whether we like it or not the majority of representative players from Munster, Leinster and Ulster still come through the schools system. So to reinterate my point there is not a big difference in ability between the best Munster and leinster schools.

Tim Robbins

Tuddie wrote: »

In 2009 U19 schools squad against australia, 6 munster, 7 leinster, 7 ulster, 2 conn. Same story evens.This is also consistent with the senior team story where whether we like it or not the majority of representative players from Munster, Leinster and Ulster still come through the schools system. So to reinterate my point there is not a big difference in ability between the best Munster and leinster schools.

You'd wonder though. If the lads coming through youths were given the same amount of training how many would come through.

themont85

PBC looked like a good side from Setanta's showing of the Munster final there, fair play. Guy who scored 2 tries, is he on Munster schools?

Ihaveanopinion

Teg Veece wrote: »

Don't bother trying to argue it, Dave.
Leinster schools are clearly streets ahead of their Munster counterparts. They have been destroying them for years, apparently, according to someone's brother. Oh, and Leinster schools have a big fella who got onto the Leinster pre-season side so that seals it.
Munster schools should really just give up on the whole rugby thing to avoid further embarrassment at the hands of their Leinster overlords.

Who of any note have Munster schools ever provided to the international setup?

Great Question.

Declan Kidney was a Maths teacher and rugby coach in PBC

Ronan O Gara, Peter Stringer, Frankie Sheahan, Mick O Driscoll all from PBC also.....

anonymous_joe

Don't feed the trolls. :pac:

At least half, probably three quarters of all our internationals will come from rugby schools primarily, clubs secondary.

Ulster and Leinster plays are usually all ex-schools players, the likes of Shaggy and O'Brien aren't the norm. In Munster pretty much anyone from Cork is a schools player primarily.

Not sure on Connacht though.

Redsock

As an Ulstermen, and teacher in a a second tier rugby playing school I dispair at the unhealthy obsession with Schools Cup rugby. IMO it is the main reason we are struggling to compete with the other two provinces.

I look at Munster and wish Ulster had the same club based focus for rugby and maybe then we could emerge from the elitist, school tie dominated rugby that currently exists.

themont85

Redsock wrote: »

As an Ulstermen, and teacher in a a second tier rugby playing school I dispair at the unhealthy obsession with Schools Cup rugby. IMO it is the main reason we are struggling to compete with the other two provinces.

I look at Munster and wish Ulster had the same club based focus for rugby and maybe then we could emerge from the elitist, school tie dominated rugby that currently exists.

Leinster have been schools dominated, with a few club players and more are on the way, hasn't harmed them producing players. A nice mix between the two is good.

What has affected Ulster is 1) an inability to retain all their players, the Irish tax scheme for sportspersons helps us. 2) less impressive imports, in the last decade Leinster and munster had better signings- elsom, Williams, contepomi, halsted et al. The uk's new 50 percent band won't help, neither will a weakened sterling in that regard.

Redsock

I take your points but is it the case in Leinster as in ulster whereby the schools dominate underage rugby?schools like Methody do not permit their players to train with the ulster schools sides whilst they are involved in the schools cup, whatismore in these schools will not permit their players to play for their clubs. As a result the player pool that feeds in to ulster rugby is very small.

themont85

Redsock wrote: »

I take your points but is it the case in Leinster as in ulster whereby the schools dominate underage rugby?schools like Methody do not permit their players to train with the ulster schools sides whilst they are involved in the schools cup, whatismore in these schools will not permit their players to play for their clubs. As a result the player pool that feeds in to ulster rugby is very small.

Pretty much the same, the schools in Leinster don't want their cup players playing with clubs. Possibly there are more rugby playing school here, the players on the Leinster squad would come from 10 or 12 different school but the bulk of that would be a couple of schools. Schoolboy rugby does dominate in Leinster, there are a couple of clubs coming now but it is difficult for them to be as strong.

anonymous_joe

themont85 wrote: »

Pretty much the same, the schools in Leinster don't want their cup players playing with clubs. Possibly there are more rugby playing school here, the players on the Leinster squad would come from 10 or 12 different school but the bulk of that would be a couple of schools. Schoolboy rugby does dominate in Leinster, there are a couple of clubs coming now but it is difficult for them to be as strong.

Most rugby players in Leinster went to one of a dozen or so schools that churns out players, and the intake of most clubs at 18/19 comes from these schools.

Tim Robbins

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Don't feed the trolls. :pac:

At least half, probably three quarters of all our internationals will come from rugby schools primarily, clubs secondary.

Ulster and Leinster plays are usually all ex-schools players, the likes of Shaggy and O'Brien aren't the norm. In Munster pretty much anyone from Cork is a schools player primarily.

Not sure on Connacht though.

That's because when the U21's Premier, Pennant and Harry Gale get going, the school players are way ahead of the youths. This makes it a lot easier for them to get in the AIL and Leinster academy. They have a huge head start and people keeping an eye on them but youths is where all the untapped talent is.

You can get reasonably good youth teams and they only train once a week. The teams that make it to the youth cup finals are usually reasonably decent and every now and again you get freak players playing for lesser clubs who are at a far higher standard than their team mates.

I know one fella whose son looked a reasonably good player in an under 18's youth team, he was ambituous and left and went to a senior club. With the extra training he really came on and he was on their AIL team.

anonymous_joe

Tim Robbins wrote: »

That's because when the U21's Premier, Pennant and Harry Gale get going, the school players are way ahead of the youths. This makes it a lot easier for them to get in the AIL and Leinster academy. They have a huge head start and people keeping an eye on them but youths is where all the untapped talent is.

You can get reasonably good youth teams and they only train once a week. The teams that make it to the youth cup finals are usually reasonably decent and every now and again you get freak players playing for lesser clubs who are at a far higher standard than their team mates.

I know one fella whose son looked a reasonably good player in an under 18's youth team, he was ambituous and left and went to a senior club. With the extra training he really came on and he was on their AIL team.

It's undeniable though, that the majority of rugby players in Ireland will come through the schools systems.

One of my mates used to play for Barnhall, and is as far from the various rugby stereotypes as possible, but I myself only ever got into rugby because of where I went to school.

The sport is growing, but until most talent comes from clubs and not the schools, things will remain as they are.