Government introduces Postcodes in Ireland..?

Gurgle

I've mixed feelings on this one:
On the one hand, we have no need whatsoever for postcodes. They were originally needed to help postmen etc. to navigate in high density housing areas. We don't have any major cities, the system we have works just fine for our population distribution.

On the other hand, its not rocket science.
If the twits in charge actually made a decision to introduce postcodes, there is no reason on earth why it should have taken more than a week to prepare the maps.

garydubh

lol_leo wrote: »

Funny but I have not long returned from UK where I lived last 7 years and was setting up an online account today when asked for my postcode. I done a quick google search to find it out for Meath and to my horror discovered we still dont have a postcode system!!! What on earth is going on?

I see Dempsey set up a working group (2005) which pointed out the benifits of it which other posters have pointed out also. Apart from all this with no result I would love to know how much this steering group cost the tax payers here. This is a god damn joke.

Another rant is about so called debit cards that only work in Ireland but I'll save this for another thread...

Phew...what else am I in for. No wonder we drink a lot.

lol-leo - Welcome home there is good news and bad news -

Firstly The Bad News: Us Irish do not drink anymore - too expensive, no time, no smoking in pubs and no leeway on driving with alcohol - Pubs are closing (Unless of course you are under 18 then none of the above applies):mad:

Now the Good News: In the absence of the Government system muted by Noel Dempsey in 2005 that you mention which will not materialise now until after 2010 - an alternative Post Coding system has now been launched - see www.irishpostcodes.ie

turgon

Gurgle wrote: »

there is no reason on earth why it should have taken more than a week to prepare the maps.

A week of real productivity in the Irish public service is quite difficult to gauge. Many scholars would contest that it is between 4 to 12 weeks, although on the ground data would surmise that 5 months is a more appropriate measurement.

In other words, what would seem to take a week will, in fact, take about 20 times as long.

plodder

lol_leo wrote: »

Funny but I have not long returned from UK where I lived last 7 years and was setting up an online account today when asked for my postcode. I done a quick google search to find it out for Meath and to my horror discovered we still dont have a postcode system!!! What on earth is going on?

But, why do you need a postcode in this situation? There are some good reasons for location/post codes, but setting up online accounts isn't one of them.

The system mentioned by garydubh is a good location code, ie. a way of translating latitude and longitude into a compressed alpha numeric code, but personally I think a post code, should be a more specific (and shorter) code than that.

Firetrap

We do need postcodes. I've heard stories of the emergency services getting lost, even out the country. Just because there are parts of the country that don't have dense populations doesn't mean that we shouldn't bring them in.

Having no postcodes helps with the old credit card fraud as well.

turgon

Firetrap wrote: »

Having no postcodes helps with the old credit card fraud as well.

But if you tried to introduce postcodes here is what people will be lead to think...

First of all Còir, and related Catholic bigots would form a tidy group.
Then they would begin their campaign insinuating that postcodes aid in pedophiles tracking you down, with the government aiding various pedo-rings in return for money. They would more than likely concoct some story that abortion will become more widespread with the advent of abortion-at-home services.

Then the backwards, zealous Catholic ignoramuses would come out in their groups and begin to protest. And Fianna Fail will obey as always.

plodder

Firetrap wrote: »

We do need postcodes. I've heard stories of the emergency services getting lost, even out the country. Just because there are parts of the country that don't have dense populations doesn't mean that we shouldn't bring them in.

Having no postcodes helps with the old credit card fraud as well.

Right, but we have to be crystal clear what the reasons for having a post code are, and as you say it has little to do with delivering post.

garydubh

This is not a National System (There is no National System and probably will not be for some time) so it is not being forced on anyone. The people who need it will use it!

As for making it shorter - ideally we would all like shorter telephone numbers but because of the number of telephones in the country, shorter numbers are just not practical. It is the same with postcodes. In order to make them as unique for each address as possible - 7 charcters is the absolute minimum. If you only want to define an area - a bit like they do in the UK (up to 40 houses is the general rule)- then you can get away with just 5 characters. (First 3 and last 2 of the PON Codes - see here: http://www.irishpostcodes.ie/ponc/poncviewl.php )
However, area based Post Codes cause problems for medical services, emergency services and deliveries in densly populated urban streets. Also in the UK as new houses are built, people can get shifted from one PostCode to another.

As we are starting from scratch over 50 years after the first introduction of the UK system - there is no need for us to adopt the same problems. In addition, in order to avoid taking many years and Millions of Euros of expense to establish a database address system necessary to support a UK type Post Coding system which does not support Post Codes for anything other than properties, a coordinate based system like PON Codes makes good practical and economic sense!

plodder

garydubh wrote: »

This is not a National System (There is no National System and probably will not be for some time) so it is not being forced on anyone. The people who need it will use it!

As for making it shorter - ideally we would all like shorter telephone numbers but because of the number of telephones in the country, shorter numbers are just not practical. It is the same with postcodes. In order to make them as unique for each address as possible - 7 charcters is the absolute minimum. If you only want to define an area - a bit like they do in the UK (up to 40 houses is the general rule)- then you can get away with just 5 characters. (First 3 and last 2 of the PON Codes - see here: http://www.irishpostcodes.ie/ponc/poncviewl.php )
However, area based Post Codes cause problems for medical services, emergency services and deliveries in densly populated urban streets. Also in the UK as new houses are built, people can get shifted from one PostCode to another.

As we are starting from scratch over 50 years after the first introduction of the UK system - there is no need for us to adopt the same problems. In addition, in order to avoid taking many years and Millions of Euros of expense to establish a database address system necessary to support a UK type Post Coding system which does not support Post Codes for anything other than properties, a coordinate based system like PON Codes makes good practical and economic sense!

This system provides a code for every 5 or 6 sq. metre plot of land in the country. That means that a house with a large garden would have dozens of them. Vast areas of the countryside, that don't need codes, would also have them. What I am saying is, that by encoding the location using a different set of information than latitude and longitude, ought to allow for a much shorter code. A post code only needs to identify locations actually connected to the road network. It doesn't need to identify the tops or sides of mountains, or the middle of lakes and rivers. I think this is definitely a useful code, but it's not optimal as a post code in my opinion.

garydubh

plodder wrote: »

This system provides a code for every 5 or 6 sq. metre plot of land in the country. That means that a house with a large garden would have dozens of them. Vast areas of the countryside, that don't need codes, would also have them. What I am saying is, that by encoding the location using a different set of information than latitude and longitude, ought to allow for a much shorter code. A post code only needs to identify locations actually connected to the road network. It doesn't need to identify the tops or sides of mountains, or the middle of lakes and rivers. I think this is definitely a useful code, but it's not optimal as a post code in my opinion.

Firstly, why build a system that limits its capability right from the start. If we do as you suggest then if an interprative centre is built on top of a mountain for tourists it cannot have a postcode - nor can a site entrance on new road construction or the start of a mountain running race located half way up the side of a mountain.

Secondly, after firstly saying that we accept the limitations above and will only postcode road related data, then the system used will require a database. i.e. every mobile phone, GPS, Pocket PC will reqiuire an up to date database where roads are named, points on the roads are associated with coordinates and all related addresses tagged onto the road (And kept up to date for new builds weekly!) You now have a system like the UK one which still has up to 7 characters, even in Northern Ireland, and there is always a struggle and a cost to keeping it up to date and all roads must be named.

Therein is a major problem for Ireland - we would have to name the hundreds of local roads that do not have names - imagine all the hassle associated with this! They had to try do the same in Northern Ireland to introduce the UK PostCodes there - there are many roads in Fermanagh still not named - so the PostCode only works in a very general way in places.

So your aspirations are good and have all been considered but the practicalities pose many issues which a 7 Charcter PON Code, Coordinate Based system resolve without cost, databases, major lead times and many arguments about place and road names!!!

plodder

garydubh wrote: »

Firstly, why build a system that limits its capability right from the start. If we do as you suggest then if an interprative centre is built on top of a mountain for tourists it cannot have a postcode - nor can a site entrance on new road construction or the start of a mountain running race located half way up the side of a mountain.

Secondly, after firstly saying that we accept the limitations above and will only postcode road related data, then the system used will require a database. i.e. every mobile phone, GPS, Pocket PC will reqiuire an up to date database where roads are named, points on the roads are associated with coordinates and all related addresses tagged onto the road (And kept up to date for new builds weekly!) You now have a system like the UK one which still has up to 7 characters, even in Northern Ireland, and there is always a struggle and a cost to keeping it up to date and all roads must be named.

Therein is a major problem for Ireland - we would have to name the hundreds of local roads that do not have names - imagine all the hassle associated with this! They had to try do the same in Northern Ireland to introduce the UK PostCodes there - there are many roads in Fermanagh still not named - so the PostCode only works in a very general way in places.

So your aspirations are good and have all been considered but the practicalities pose many issues which a 7 Charcter PON Code, Coordinate Based system resolve without cost, databases, major lead times and many arguments about place and road names!!!

It wouldn't be a problem adding new roads, so long as the code has enough "space" to add them in later. Also, they don't need to be named officially. They do need to be identified though and given an identity in the code. What I was thinking actually was a system that would use a lat/longitude based code in built up areas, but a system based on road identity and position on the road in rural areas.

There is obviously a trade-off between systems that are low maintenance (such as yours) but which possibly end up with a longer code, and systems that use databases and require maintenance.

Personally, I think that the UK type system is too complicated maintenance wise, but other compromises are possible where the amount of maintenance and upfront work is minimised.

The bottom line IMO is that postcodes have to be as short as possible, to be easier to remember and therefore, to gain acceptance. So, it is worthwhile expending some effort to achieve this.

oscarBravo

A 7-character code is easy to remember. It strikes me as an excellent balance of utility and convenience.

The problem with the name "post code" is that people get hung up on the first word. There are lots of uses for a location code that have nothing to do with postal delivery.

plodder, if you have a better system than Gary's - even a hypothetical one - feel free to describe it and we can discuss the pros and cons.

Shacklebolt

The introduction of post-codes would bring about a demise of the old rural townlands (or "villages" as they are called in the west) which would be a shame.
Personally I think we manage quite fine without them.

oscarBravo

Shacklebolt wrote: »

The introduction of post-codes would bring about a demise of the old rural townlands (or "villages" as they are called in the west) which would be a shame.

How?

Personally I think we manage quite fine without them.

We've coped without them, sure. But would we be better off with them? Some of us think so.

plodder

oscarBravo wrote: »

A 7-character code is easy to remember. It strikes me as an excellent balance of utility and convenience.

The problem with the name "post code" is that people get hung up on the first word. There are lots of uses for a location code that have nothing to do with postal delivery.

plodder, if you have a better system than Gary's - even a hypothetical one - feel free to describe it and we can discuss the pros and cons.

Presumably, a seven character code is harder to remember than a 5 or 6 character one.

I don't have a "system" as such, but what I am saying is that all the options should be very thoroughly explored before deciding on an official one. And like I already said, different types of code could have different uses anyway. I do think a postcode has to be optimised to be as short as possible though.

What I was talking about was a code that would be based on two different systems. In built up areas, a system like Gary's would be used, ie. each 5 or 6 metre square plot would have a code based on a grid. Everywhere else, the system would be based on road identities and position on the road. Road identity wouldn't mean the official designation or name of the road, but just some mathematical representation of a position on a network.

To set up a system like this would require a digitised representation of rural roads, and also a task to identify the initial set of built up areas. I'd imagine the Ordnance Survey would already have this information anyway. GPS vendors would also have it.

The built up areas could be allocated in 1 km square chunks. So, the main ongoing task would be as towns expand, then new chunks of land would be designated as "built-up", a prefix would be assigned to the new chunk, and then all of the land inside would automatically get a code. The same would apply to new roads in the country-side. Any new roads would have to be assigned a prefix. An organisation like OSi would be ideally positioned to maintain a system like this.

oscarBravo

plodder wrote: »

Presumably, a seven character code is harder to remember than a 5 or 6 character one.

. Yes, and a 1-character is easier and a 12-character is harder. The question is about the utility of any given code, and where the balance is. Nobody in the UK seems to have a problem remembering their 6- or 7-character code, and US zip codes are up to nine-digits.

I don't have a "system" as such, but what I am saying is that all the options should be very thoroughly explored before deciding on an official one. And like I already said, different types of code could have different uses anyway. I do think a postcode has to be optimised to be as short as possible though.

I disagree. I think a code needs to be as short as practicable, while retaining utility. Ireland's existing postal codes ("D4") are about as short as possible, but fundamentally pretty useless.

What I was talking about was a code that would be based on two different systems. In built up areas, a system like Gary's would be used, ie. each 5 or 6 metre square plot would have a code based on a grid. Everywhere else, the system would be based on road identities and position on the road. Road identity wouldn't mean the official designation or name of the road, but just some mathematical representation of a position on a network.

To set up a system like this would require a digitised representation of rural roads, and also a task to identify the initial set of built up areas. I'd imagine the Ordnance Survey would already have this information anyway. GPS vendors would also have it.

The built up areas could be allocated in 1 km square chunks. So, the main ongoing task would be as towns expand, then new chunks of land would be designated as "built-up", a prefix would be assigned to the new chunk, and then all of the land inside would automatically get a code. The same would apply to new roads in the country-side. Any new roads would have to be assigned a prefix. An organisation like OSi would be ideally positioned to maintain a system like this.

Disadvantages:

• Confusion. You have two post code systems, purely so that some can be shorter than others.
• Change. Someone with a "short" code one day gets moved to a "long" code because of a re-designation of the area they live in.
• Cost. There's a fairly substantial administrative burden involved in maintaining such a system. This strongly suggests a paid-for database of postcodes like the UK, rather than freely-available like the US. Cost would be a major barrier to take-up.
• Latency. New roads, re-designation of areas as "built-up" - these things lead to out-of-date databases, which take time and effort to bring back up to date.

Gary's system may not be perfect, but it has the twin advantages of (a) working well, and (b) working now.

plodder

oscarBravo wrote: »

. Yes, and a 1-character is easier and a 12-character is harder. The question is about the utility of any given code, and where the balance is. Nobody in the UK seems to have a problem remembering their 6- or 7-character code, and US zip codes are up to nine-digits. I disagree. I think a code needs to be as short as practicable, while retaining utility. Ireland's existing postal codes ("D4") are about as short as possible, but fundamentally pretty useless. Disadvantages:

• Confusion. You have two post code systems, purely so that some can be shorter than others.
• Change. Someone with a "short" code one day gets moved to a "long" code because of a re-designation of the area they live in.
• Cost. There's a fairly substantial administrative burden involved in maintaining such a system. This strongly suggests a paid-for database of postcodes like the UK, rather than freely-available like the US. Cost would be a major barrier to take-up.
• Latency. New roads, re-designation of areas as "built-up" - these things lead to out-of-date databases, which take time and effort to bring back up to date.

Gary's system may not be perfect, but it has the twin advantages of (a) working well, and (b) working now.

Actually, on the confusion point, I wasn't completely clear on that. To users, it would only look like one system. The fact that the codes are generated in two different ways is not really that important (to users).

I think your other points are valid, though overstated. All of these points involve trade-offs, which need to be teased out in some detail, particularly the question of the size of the code. People will question why a country the size of Ireland needs a code that is larger than the UK's.

Not sure, what your final point really means. Areyou saying the state should adopt Gary's system because it works well, and works now. Of course, people are free to use it now if they wish.

professore

Flukey wrote: »

As has been said in this thread, our postmen, even with local knowledge can still deliver letters incorrectly. Whatever is written on the envelope, with or without a postcode it is down to the postman to put it through and a door, and he can still put it through the wrong one. It'll help in some areas, but I still maintain that the vast majority of our addresses, when written fully, are sufficient to get it to its destination, whether it is a guy who has been on the route for years, or a guy doing his first day on the job in an area he hardly knows.

:mad: No. You are the kind of person who is going to sink the Irish economy without a trace. Since you probably work for the civil service it probably won't matter to you. It is blatantly obvious that a postcode system (preferably GPS based) would be a huge improvement.

oscarBravo

plodder wrote: »

Actually, on the confusion point, I wasn't completely clear on that. To users, it would only look like one system. The fact that the codes are generated in two different ways is not really that important (to users).

One of the things that makes a postcode easy to remember is a predictable format - the UK system sort of has this (although it has too many possible variants), and the US is either a 5- or a 9-digit number. It's hard to imagine how to design a system with variable resolution and two completely incompatible means of derivation that would feel like a single integrated system.

Also, such a system would need to retain the feature of having broadly similar locations sharing broadly similar codes. The UK and US systems have this (because they are heirarchical from left-to-right), as does Gary's.

I think your other points are valid, though overstated. All of these points involve trade-offs, which need to be teased out in some detail, particularly the question of the size of the code. People will question why a country the size of Ireland needs a code that is larger than the UK's.

Because it offers features that the UK code doesn't, such as identification of individual premises and complete future-proofing.

The length of the code isn't a useful measure of anything, really. My girlfriend's parents address in Denmark has a 4-digit postcode - but all that it identifies is the main sorting office in the nearest city.

Not sure, what your final point really means. Areyou saying the state should adopt Gary's system because it works well, and works now. Of course, people are free to use it now if they wish.

I reckon the state has had more than enough time to develop a useful code, and has singularly failed to do so, largely due to political pressure from An Post, for whom a code such as Gary's is anathema. I find a location code to be an extremely useful concept, and I reckon that if people find it useful, they should use it.

I'd like to see it become the de facto post code standard for Ireland. While ComReg et al have sat around and talked about it for years, someone actually did some work and came up with something that works. Again, it may not be perfect, but if the only flaw that can be found with it is that it's a couple of digits too long, I think that says a lot.

professore

UK Solo and Switch cards only work in the UK. I too lived in the UK and the banks there are not any better than our lot here, in fact in many cases were worse. Oh yes and they also have a currency that only works in the UK.

lol_leo wrote: »

Funny but I have not long returned from UK where I lived last 7 years and was setting up an online account today when asked for my postcode. I done a quick google search to find it out for Meath and to my horror discovered we still dont have a postcode system!!! What on earth is going on?

I see Dempsey set up a working group (2005) which pointed out the benifits of it which other posters have pointed out also. Apart from all this with no result I would love to know how much this steering group cost the tax payers here. This is a god damn joke.

Another rant is about so called debit cards that only work in Ireland but I'll save this for another thread...

Phew...what else am I in for. No wonder we drink a lot.

PS Rinnin...I used to live on same street as you...thinkin I recognised M14 5QD, number 23 Langdale. Just swing round lampost 3 times, jump pothole, look for tree with birds nest on top and you there Irish style

professore

garydubh wrote: »

lol-leo - Welcome home there is good news and bad news -

Firstly The Bad News: Us Irish do not drink anymore - too expensive, no time, no smoking in pubs and no leeway on driving with alcohol - Pubs are closing (Unless of course you are under 18 then none of the above applies):mad:

Now the Good News: In the absence of the Government system muted by Noel Dempsey in 2005 that you mention which will not materialise now until after 2010 - an alternative Post Coding system has now been launched - see www.irishpostcodes.ie

Yes looks like a good system.

BTW the word is mooted not muted.


Main Entry:
muted
Function:
adjective
Date:
1855

1 a: being mute : silent b: toned down : low-key, subdued
2: provided with or produced or modified by the use of a mute
— mut·ed·ly adverb


moot (mt)
n.
1. Law A hypothetical case argued by law students as an exercise.
2. An ancient English meeting, especially a representative meeting of the freemen of a shire.
tr.v. moot·ed, moot·ing, moots
1.
a. To bring up as a subject for discussion or debate.
b. To discuss or debate. See Synonyms at broach1.
2. Law To plead or argue (a case) in a moot court.
adj.
1. Subject to debate; arguable: a moot question.
2.
a. Law Without legal significance, through having been previously decided or settled.
b. Of no practical importance; irrelevant.

bushy...

garydubh wrote: »

an alternative Post Coding system has now been launched - see www.irishpostcodes.ie

Your "I " button seems to be broken
it may be covered under warranty though


# whois irishpostcodes.ie | more

% Rights restricted by copyright; http://www.domainregistry.ie/copyright.html
% Do not remove this notice

domain: irishpostcodes.ie
descr: Garry Delaney & David Halley
descr: Unincorporated Association
descr: Discretionary Name
admin-c: AGJ865-IEDR

lol_leo

professore wrote: »

UK Solo and Switch cards only work in the UK. I too lived in the UK and the banks there are not any better than our lot here, in fact in many cases were worse. Oh yes and they also have a currency that only works in the UK.

Well my UK Visa debit card worked fine online and in any other EU country with cashback option also. I dont think Visa or Mastercard debit cards are available here and I really dont want a credit card.

Gary that seems like a reasonable system to me...better than what we got at present.

SeanW

Yup. In the U.S. all checking accounts come with some common form of ATM/purchase card such as Maestro. And that's just by default: in most cases you can indeed get a Debit Mastercard or "Check Card" Visa linked to your account, in some cases even without a credit history or proof of income.

Shacklebolt

oscarBravo wrote: »

How? We've coped without them, sure. But would we be better off with them? Some of us think so.

Its already happening in the north where townlands arent officially recognised in the postal system with codes used istead.

Liam Byrne

There's also an argument that postcodes make it much easier for the **** who send you junk mail to do so.

If that's the case, then I want an allowance from the Government responsible for going ahead with this for all the extra unread rubbish that will end up in my recycle bin!

LordSutch

I wonder is Ireland the only country in Europe without Postcodes?

You get to remember them just like your car number plate, and I can still remember a UK post code of mine from the late 1980s 'TW12 2DX' easy, concise, memorable, & invaluable to the postman!

Carawaystick

ArthurF wrote: »

You get to remember them just like your car number plate, and I can still remember a UK post code of mine from the late 1980s 'TW12 2DX' easy, concise, memorable, & invaluable to the postman!

unlike say
3 Pimlico
Dublin 8

which is an actual address and only 2 times the number of characters as your old postcode.

I presume there was a number and street name to go along with your postcode?

France uses 5 digit postcodes, with the first two digits being the department number, (kinda like a list of counties in alphabetical order) leaving 3 digits for the location in the department, post seems to arrive.

LordSutch

Carawaystick wrote: »

unlike say
3 Pimlico
Dublin 8

which is an actual address and only 2 times the number of characters as your old postcode.

By 2 times the number of characters I think you mean 'Twice as many' (which is the actual problem of not having Postcodes) !!!

Carawaystick wrote: »

I presume there was a number and street name to go along with your postcode?

Yes there was/is a full address for the house, but its pretty long-winded & open to wrong spelling etc, and as far as I know you can just put the recipients Name & Postcode on a letter for it to be delivered the next day 'first class post' (UK only).

seamus

Carawaystick wrote: »

3 Pimlico
Dublin 8

That's a rare one though. Especially when dealing with new developments, many people's full addresses look like this:

Name
House Number / Street
Development Name
Borough
County / Postcode

I presume there was a number and street name to go along with your postcode?

Theoretically in the UK you can just stick in the house number and it should get to you, i.e.

12 Fake street
TW12 2DX

Obviously though people are advised to stick in the full address in case the postcode is illegible or otherwise removed.

I know of a postgrad student in DIT who's currently in talks with the Government as well as a few other agencies about a system he's developed.

He's basically come up with an algorithm which can convert an 18-digit (?) GPS co-ordinate into a unique 7-digit code. Obviously if used as a postcode, this would allow the post man to locate any house in the country within a couple of metres of their front door.