Triathlon: Decreasing my 5km and 10km run times

BossArky

Hi folks,

I have been running on and off for almost the past three years and would consider myself an "intermediate" runner.

I want to increase my 5km and 10km times (current average times are approx 24 and 52 minutes respectively). These distances correspond to the Sprint and Olympic triathlon distances I compete in.

I spend most of my workout time in the gym weight training and try to eat well to maintain a non scrawny body.

I would probably average 3 runs a week of maybe 2, 3 and 5km. This is along with the gym work (4, maybe 5 times a week) and 1 or 2 swim sessions.

How often and how long should I be running to train properly for my 5km and 10km races? I had a read of this but it seems a bit too focused on people training for running alone. Also, I don't particularly want to follow a cardio only triathlon routine as this will (and has in the past) wasted me away.

If anyone else has experience of how they managed to balance running (tri's) and gym stuff I'd be interested to hear you plans.

hunnymonster

I'm not an expert at shorter distances at all so feel free to take what I suggest and neglect it.

Have you ever run a 5 or 10 km with a split timing? How was your pace, even or did you slow. The reason I ask is that at 5km your longest run of the week is quite short and my gut instinct is that you're probably tiring.

Other things to consider are
there is a certain trade off between not being scrawny and fast middle distances. I don't think this come into play at 52min/10 km though so you should be able to keep your muscle.

Are you including any variation in pace in your runs? The best way to run faster is to run faster. tempo runs, speedwork, hills will all help.

If you're going to do 3 runs a week can I suggest
1. a long run. 6 km this week, 7 next, 8 the week after until you get to 14. That's enough over the 10km distance to make sure you're not going to tire. Don't worry about speed on this run, it's time on your running feet we're working on here.
2. Speedwork. Something like 10 min slow warm up, 8x200m, 4x400m, 10 min cool down (total 3.2 km & wu/cd)
3. just for fun, 5-10 km on a route that you like, maybe with company, just for fun & fitness. As you're also a triathlete, another option is to make this a brick session and kill two birds with one stone.

--amadeus--

I'm not a triathlete (strange aversion to being seen in public in lycra) but I do the occasional 10k... I'd echo e/thing that HM has said. While you have probably got a very high level of CV fitness you're probably tiring as you haven't run the full 10k in training. Longer runs following the pattern she has suggested will reap huge benifits and should be your first step.

Once you are comfortably able to run 12 - 15k in training then adding spped work would be a logical next step.

One thing to consider - are you faster on training runs than on the day? If you can nail a 10k in sub 50 in training but not in a tri then maybe you need to try more brick sessions or look at your re-fuelling? And - as you probably know - muscle and weight don't make for fast runners!

thirtyfoot

If you want to get your 5 & 10km times down you need speedwork especially as you are a reasonably experienced runner. Less time in the gym, more time on the track. Its a trade off - are you a triathlete or are you after a good body. Most triathletes I've seen have great bodies automatically anyway.

I'm a 80kg middle distance athlete with ok power (squat of 1.5 bodyweight) and I spend about only 10% of my training week in the indoor gym. I also do what could be described as 'cross-fit' type sessions twice a week that are tailored to my event and needs and include lots of plyos and running at a fairly decent nick.

Also increase your distances in your long runs.

BossArky

All, thanks for the information. Some good stuff in there.

hunnymonster wrote: »

Have you ever run a 5 or 10 km with a split timing? The reason I ask is that at 5km your longest run of the week is quite short

No, I never recorded a split. I will try this.

hunnymonster wrote: »

...at 5km your longest run of the week is quite short

...there is a certain trade off between not being scrawny and fast middle distances. I don't think this come into play at 52min/10 km though so you should be able to keep your muscle.

The reason I keep my runs short is because I was hearing bits and pieces about how when training for a marathon you should never run the full distance. I was trying to apply this to my shorter distances.

Also, I was trying to keep things short as I was under the impression that any runs over 30 mins would cause my body to go cathabolic, eating into what muscle I have.

hunnymonster wrote: »

Are you including any variation in pace in your runs? The best way to run faster is to run faster. tempo runs, speedwork, hills will all help.

No. I must try this. My current running style involves chugging along at the same-ish pace for the entire distance.

hunnymonster wrote: »

If you're going to do 3 runs a week can I suggest
1. a long run. 6 km this week, 7 next, 8 the week after until you get to 14. That's enough over the 10km distance to make sure you're not going to tire. Don't worry about speed on this run, it's time on your running feet we're working on here.
2. Speedwork. Something like 10 min slow warm up, 8x200m, 4x400m, 10 min cool down (total 3.2 km & wu/cd)
3. just for fun, 5-10 km on a route that you like, maybe with company, just for fun & fitness. As you're also a triathlete, another option is to make this a brick session and kill two birds with one stone.

Great, that is what I need - a plan! Thanks.

--amadeus-- wrote: »

One thing to consider - are you faster on training runs than on the day? If you can nail a 10k in sub 50 in training but not in a tri then maybe you need to try more brick sessions or look at your re-fuelling? And - as you probably know - muscle and weight don't make for fast runners!

I think I tend to go marginally faster on Sprint races (5km) with the adrenaline rush... but a good bit slower on Olympic distances (10km). That being said, I don't run 10km very often at all... so I probably need more practice as you say.

Tingle wrote: »

If you want to get your 5 & 10km times down you need speedwork especially as you are a reasonably experienced runner.

Yeah I need to work on this. I do 95% of my running on a threadmill and am slightly wary about sprinting on one, as I don't want to fall and kill myself or someone else.

Tingle wrote: »

Its a trade off - are you a triathlete or are you after a good body. Most triathletes I've seen have great bodies automatically anyway.

I want the speed, but I don't want to look like a triathlete. Some of them look ok, whilst many are a bit skinnier that my liking.

--amadeus--

It's not a great idea to compare marathon training with 5/10k training as you are preparing your body to do quite different things. Once you go above 1/2 mara distance in training runs you do minor muscle damage. This is why you should only do one long run per week and have a rest or easy day afterwards. The muscle repair of course leads to supercompensation, one of teh aims of endurance training. Not running the full distance in marathon training is because the risks of a 26 mile training run out-weigh the benifits. A 20/22 mile run will do almost as much good with signifigantly lower risk.

10k on the other hand is a short distance and you want to build endurance to ensure that you can maintain as much intensity in the last k as the first, so over running the distance is desirable to build that stamina. Not sure about cathabolic, it's not a term I have come across but I would be very surprised if a 10k run triggered muscle canabilism for fueling, esp if you eat a carb heavy meal the night before the race.

hunnymonster

BossArky wrote: »

The reason I keep my runs short is because I was hearing bits and pieces about how when training for a marathon you should never run the full distance. I was trying to apply this to my shorter distances.

As Amadeus said, there is something very special that happens after 20-22 miles (can be as little as 18 miles for some people) that increases the damage done hugely. That's why marathon plans are a particular way but this will not apply to shorter distances.

Also, I was trying to keep things short as I was under the impression that any runs over 30 mins would cause my body to go cathabolic, eating into what muscle I have.

Maybe talk to g'em or transform about this but my understanding is that if you keep the intensity low (<70% MHR) then you've got anywhere between 60 and 90 minutes before you go catabolic whilst running. If you're concerned, consider taking some BCAA's before the longer runs? I'm running insane distances at the moment and my squat isn't suffering.

g'em

hunnymonster wrote: »

Maybe talk to g'em or transform about this but my understanding is that if you keep the intensity low (<70% MHR) then you've got anywhere between 60 and 90 minutes before you go catabolic whilst running. If you're concerned, consider taking some BCAA's before the longer runs? I'm running insane distances at the moment and my squat isn't suffering.

Actually the specific times you can run before going into catabolism isn't something I'd be massively aware of, but in this case I'm inclined to think it's not something you need to be hugely concerned about. Our bodies can withstand a lot more hardship exercise-wise than we give them credit for and some moderate runs won't undo all the lean muscle gains you've worked hard to build! Transform runs marathons every year afaik and still has big lifts, he's just clever about his nutrition and training (i.e. eat to perform and train for your goals; sometimes you can't have it all!!). You may end up losing a little bit of mass, but this will be easily be recouped when you're in off-season and concentrating on the gym.

Certainly BCAAs (branched-chain-amino-acid) supplements are great as muscle sparing tools - I've only ever used them when on a major calorie deficit but a lot of lifters use them when going through heavy intensity lifting cycles. There's a range of types out there but for cheap and cheerful and effective Holland & Barrett are a good start.

thirtyfoot

"I've always felt that long, slow distance produces long, slow runners." - Sebastian Coe

I think the OP has some cake, he has been running for 3 years and while his times aren't world beating more running in general will get his times down, this includes longer long runs and some speed work. In this case spending less time in the gym and more running is the answer but the OP goals are not just to run good 10k times but also to be strong and not scrawny. I'd say since he seems to have a strength focus a 'quality focused' program could work better.

There are two schools (quality and quantity) and both work for different people. Coe would have been quality over quantity while Irish coach David Burke for example would say speedwork is overated while former olympic 800m champion Peter Snell would run 20-22 milers in training well into his training year. Both Snell and Coe were Olympic champions using different training techniques.

thirtyfoot

tunney wrote: »

52 minute 10km does not in any way suggest the presence of a cake, or even a bun.

Running 20km of speedwork a week when you are doing 120km of running is one thing. Doing 20km of speedwork when only running 40km is another.

Don't think anyone is suggesting doing 20k of speedwork out of 40k total. Hunnymonster suggested 3k of speedwork, sounds good to me.

A female friend is getting 40min 10k's off an interval and tempo based programme, not exceeding 7k in any of her runs.

I can see the merits of a mileage programme but saying no speed unless you are hitting high miles I can't understand. What kind of miles or times would you suggest one should achieve before they commence speed work and what do you regard as speedwork?

Stupid_Private

tunney wrote: »

52 minute 10km does not in any way suggest the presence of a cake, or even a bun.

You do realise this is the 10k time for a triathlon here? This is after a swim and cycle. Seems perfectly fine to me.

tunney

http://www.triathlonireland.com/filemgmt/visit.php?lid=872 for the results from Dublin 2007

BossArky

g'em wrote: »

Certainly BCAAs (branched-chain-amino-acid) supplements are great as muscle sparing tools - I've only ever used them when on a major calorie deficit but a lot of lifters use them when going through heavy intensity lifting cycles. There's a range of types out there but for cheap and cheerful and effective Holland & Barrett are a good start.

Yep, I picked up some in H&B previously. The 500mg dosage per day (as stated on the box of tablets) seems a bit low compared to what I have read elsewhere.

Stupid_Private wrote: »

You do realise this is the 10k time for a triathlon here? This is after a swim and cycle. Seems perfectly fine to me.

Let me clarify. I can count on one hand the number of 10km's I have ever ran. I know 52 mins is slow, but I'm pretty confident I'll knock minutes off it with a decent training plan. First step, I'm aiming for a 45 minute 10km by August in the London Triathlon. I'll then have my cake, eat it and even tunney can have a slice.

g'em

BossArky wrote: »

Yep, I picked up some in H&B previously. The 500mg dosage per day (as stated on the box of tablets) seems a bit low compared to what I have read elsewhere.

Jeebus, a goldfish wouldn't see any benefit from that little Start at around 3-5g a day and see how you go: first thing in the morning and pre-/post-training.

Racing Flat

tunney wrote: »

I did it last year properly for the first time and the result was my 10km off the bike went from 40 minutes to 34 minutes.

34 mins off bike - class

Care to share the training plan?

BossArky

tunney wrote: »

Dude, I was trying to be honest and helpful. The analogy of cake and icing has been taken up wrong.

I know!

tunney wrote: »

learn your technique, build your base and then do a little speed work. I did it last year properly for the first time and the result was my 10km off the bike went from 40 minutes to 34 minutes. It works, be honest about your level of fitness, take the appropriate actions and you'll see the results. Lie to yourself or believe others when they are just being nice and you'll not improve.

Nice improvement there. Yesterday I had an optional work sponsored medical. Apparently my VO2 max is around 39. I didn't know what this meant until I went home and checked it. Apparently that is only fair to average for a 26 yr old male. Do you reckon sprints / intervals will increase this?

I need to get out of my comfort zone more.

BossArky

To put my VO2 max of 39 in context

--> the Derby County football team of 2005 had an average of 65 (+ or - 5)
--> the highest recorded in a human is about mid 90s in cross country skiers
--> a racing horse has about 150

hunnymonster

Intervals should help it. The following is a good starting article
http://www.brianmac.co.uk/vo2max.htm?ref=SaglikAlani.Com

thirtyfoot

BossArky wrote: »

Nice improvement there. Yesterday I had an optional work sponsored medical. Apparently my VO2 max is around 39. I didn't know what this meant until I went home and checked it. Apparently that is only fair to average for a 26 yr old male. Do you reckon sprints / intervals will increase this?

Runs at your 3k pace will be best for improving your VO2 max. One way of doing this is by use of intervals ensuring you are running the interval at your 3k pace.

thirtyfoot

Tunney - In all respect a 34min 10k off a bike is decent but not world beating and I'll listen to the likes of Zatopek, Morceli, El G, Mottram about the pros and cons of intervals for 5 or 10k running before I'll listen to a 30-34min current day 10ker (was a 35min 10ker myself when only 16 off an interval and tempo program with low miles of 20-25 a week).

The OP wants to improve his VO2 max - running at 3k pace is the most efficient way to do this.

He is doing weights and wants to continue to do weights to keep his shape and not be a stick insect like most distance runners. To combine his goal of maintaining his physique but also cutting his 5/10k time I believe a less miles/more intensity program would suit him best. But thats the beauty of sport and training as there are many ways to skin a cat and results can be acheived doing things differently. I agree he needs to do more mileage in general but I reckon a more holistic approach including all aspects of training all year round is more beneficial to this athlete than the old school periodization of putting stuff in blocks and for example only doing your speed close to the season. Old schools work too, look at Arthur Lydiard.

I accept results can be achieved by doing high miles and speed close to the season but for the OP I believe the other route would work better. What has obviously worked for you won't work for everyone as if the OP undertakes a high-mileage program he will physically start to go somewhere he doesn't want to and begin to take on the dreaded stick insect look.

Racing Flat

BossArky wrote: »

Yesterday I had an optional work sponsored medical. Apparently my VO2 max is around 39. I didn't know what this meant until I went home and checked it. Apparently that is only fair to average for a 26 yr old male. Do you reckon sprints / intervals will increase this?

Am I right in saying VO2 max can only be increased by 10% or so, no matter how much training you do? However other parameters of fitness such as pace and heart rate at VO2max and lactate threshold can be improved. Also, VO2 max doesn't take running economy or things like 'determination' (for want of a better word) into account - most world class marathon runners have VO2 max in the 80's but there was one with a VO2 max of 69 (he was more economical) and there could be other people with a VO2 max of 90 who aren't at the top level in marathon running (maybe they can't take the pain?).

Interval training will definitely help your fitness and so you will improve in terms of performance, even though the VO2 max won't change significantly. So I wouldn't get too hung up on VO2 max score. I also wonder how it was tested as it was an optional work medical - not exactly designed for an athlete I would imagine? So let us know how they did it. There are a few tests out there which 'extimate' the VO2 max which may not be up to much. If you had one of these, you may be as well off getting a proper one done.

In relation to doing intervals at this time of year. I know plenty fellows doing intervals at the moment and they'll be challenging for National 800, 1500 and 5000m titles in the summer. they just do different interval trainings at this time of year - concentrate on longer intervals in Winter, shorter in the run up to competition.

thirtyfoot

Racing Flat wrote: »

In relation to doing intervals at this time of year. I know plenty fellows doing intervals at the moment and they'll be challenging for National 800, 1500 and 5000m titles in the summer. they just do different interval trainings at this time of year - concentrate on longer intervals in Winter, shorter in the run up to competition.

Exactly right, and if they aren't doing intervals this time of the season they will be nowhere come summertime.

By the way on a side note did you see the bit on Dave Campbell on www.runtrackireland.com. He is training with Mottram in Oz, looks savage and I think it could be a big year for him. One session is 6 x 1k on trails with 60sec recovery in around 2:58, looks pretty hilly too. He is looking in serious shape.

Racing Flat

Tingle wrote: »

One session is 6 x 1k on trails with 60sec recovery in around 2:58, looks pretty hilly too. He is looking in serious shape.

In that case, I should rephrase it that the fellows I know will be challenging for 800 and 1500 silver

--amadeus--

My understanding is that V02 max is genetically determined and that - while it is trainable - it cannot be changed dramatically. What improvements can be made in it will best be made thru intervals.

Speed work doesn't have to mean intervals either. At this stage you could be mixing in 10*100m strides on a standard training run, or doing 4 miles at 10k pace in a 6/8 mile run, or running time trials of (maybe) 5k at as close to race pace as possible, or even just fartlek sessions. Simply thinking speedwork = track / hill intervals is quite one-dimensional. As you get closer to competition you can then sharpen up by bringing intervals into it.

BossArky

Racing Flat wrote: »

Am I right in saying VO2 max can only be increased by 10% or so, no matter how much training you do?

I'm screwed so! :mad: I found a calculator online which estimated my VO2 max. 52 mins for 10km and 23 mins for 5km gave me around 39 to 40, which corresponds to the value I got from the medical yesterday.

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Speed work doesn't have to mean intervals either.

I am confused. What is the difference between speed work and intervals? Aren't they both just sprinting and recovery runs between at a slow pace?

BossArky

hunnymonster wrote: »

Intervals should help it. The following is a good starting article
http://www.brianmac.co.uk/vo2max.htm?ref=SaglikAlani.Com

Thanks.

Racing Flat wrote: »

I also wonder how it was tested as it was an optional work medical - not exactly designed for an athlete I would imagine? So let us know how they did it. There are a few tests out there which 'extimate' the VO2 max which may not be up to much. If you had one of these, you may be as well off getting a proper one done.

Yeah I told the doc that I had expected that I would be blowing into something to test my VO2 max. He said that no, the medical just used an estimation method.

I'm still not sure how he did estimate it. I was lying on one of those doctor beds for about 10 minutes whilst he took my heart rate via a monitor, then I had to stand up quickly whilst he took another reading.

I'm not sure if my weight (73kg), bodyfat (8.4%) and height (171 cm) were factored in there too on the software he was using.

Racing Flat

BossArky wrote: »

the medical just used an estimation method.

I'm still not sure how he did estimate it. I was lying on one of those doctor beds for about 10 minutes whilst he took my heart rate via a monitor, then I had to stand up quickly whilst he took another reading.

Woooah...as I thought, possibly not an accurate estimate. Don't know how the hell he worked that out a VO2 max from that test, the brainmac website (link above) lists a number of methods, but I've never heard of the one you had. I've done two types an incremental cycle test (go on exercise bike and every 3 minutes they added some weights so i was cycling against a resistance). They calculated my VO2max from this, but did tell me that as a runner I might have a higher VO2 max on a treadmill test.

So another time I did the treadmill test - start off slow jogging at a certain speed for 3 mins, then every 3 mins they put up the speed until you can go no longer. You wear a harness as it's supposed to be a test to exhaustion - ie when every last drop of enerygy is spent, your legs give out so the harness saves you from falling on your face on the treadmill. On this test, they take a blood sample every 3 mins, check your heart rate every min (I think) and you wear a mask so that your oxygen and carbondioxide inspired and exhaled are determined. From this they can tell things like your VO2max, your speed and heart rate at a number of %'s of VO2 max as well as your blood lactate levels at different speeds, lactate threshold, speed and heart rate at lactate threshold and max heart rate. they can then use these parameters to work out a training plan tailored to your individual needs, based on your individual goals. This can also be done on a bike or on a rowing machine, depending on your sport.

--amadeus--

I haven't read the full thing (just browsed) and it's aimed at distance runners but have a look at this

Speed work is any kind of training session designed to improve your pace. This may take teh form of track intervals but there are lots of other sessions, some of which work on other physiological variables.

Some of teh most common would be:

Fartlek - translates as "speed play", run a set route but intermix faster sessions in your run. So you plod anlong, pick a lampost and sprint to it, or the next corner, or whatever. It's like more relaxed intervals.

Hills - Intervals again but non track. Basically pickl a big hill, sprint up and jog down.

Lactate threashold runs - mid distance runs (4 - 8 miles+) run at 1/2 mara pace (or slightly faster). Designed to increase (surprise) your lactate threashold

Strides - normally 100m bursts in the middle of a longer run where you mimic the form of an all out sprint but usually run at a lower intensity. Main benifit seems to be in imroved form.

I also like just going out and rattling off a fast run, foot down and race pace a given distance.

The different sessions do different things and different sessions are appropriate for different race lengths but speed work isn't just track work!

thirtyfoot

It gets confusing alright because different people refer to the same session with different names mainly because they are talking about different distances. Pure speed is efforts of only about 1-7 secs with a full recovery and of little use to a distance athlete. You can then have speed endurance, special endurance, tempo(several types), fartlek, dynamic run, split runs, repeats, hills (even though its more strength than speed) and on and on.

I do intervals of say 2 sets of 4 x 200 with 30 secs standing rest. A 10k man might do intervals of 6 x 800m with 400 jog. Both intervals but very different and in fact that session of mine is not a speed session. An interval is any session that you take an interval break in your running. Can be a standing, jogging, walking break.

Probably best when referring to intervals to mention the specifics of what you mean, ie, hunnymonsters original suggestion of 4 x 800. Intervals are good in that they get you running at an intensity that your body would not normally be able to do in training. In my interval session above I might hit 28 secs for 200m yet if I tried put 4 of those together non stop I'd be on a heap on the track and probably limp home in a 35secs last 200. Yet that session allows me to train at an intensity that is close to race pace and keeping form, technique etc intact. Thats the physical side, the mental side is worked on too as you are teaching your body to handle these excesses, teaching your brain that 'no its ok to feel like this'. So the starting point for intervals should be your target race time at whatever distance you want to run. Intervals or speed or whatever you want to call also keep things fresh, it can get boring just churning out the miles week after week.

BossArky

So last night I found the interval button on the threadmill and did 3km in 15:49mins as follows. Is this roughly the correct approach to take to intervals? i.e. I want to be able to run 3km at 15kmph (for starters).

10kmph for 400m ... 400m
15kmph for 400m ... 800m
10kmph for 400m ... 1200m
15kmph for 300m ... 1500m
10kmph for 400m ... 1900m
15kmph for 100m ... 2000m
10kmph for 400m ... 2400m
15kmph for 100m ... 2500m
10kmph for 200m ... 2700m
15kmph for 100m ... 2800m
10kmph for 100m ... 2900m
15kmph for 100m ... 3000m

hunnymonster

you're getting there.

One thing I would say is that the treadmill takes quite a while to change speed so in 100 m you might not actually get up to 15 kph. For shorter sessions like this I would tend to get outside. Where I think the treadmill is invaluable is when I do something like 8x800m. When I'm on the last couple of 800's, I'm knackered and the treddie forces me to work harder. Outside I would just cheat.

BossArky

Yeah I was thinking that too. I tried to get around it by changing early.

e.g. instead of pressing the interval button at 400m, I pressed it at 380m.

Last night wasn't a great example too. Had dinner too late and deadlifted before the run so was knackered. I'll try longer intervals next time.

toombah

Doing deadlifts and then trying to run intervals is counterproductive in my opinion. If you're deadlifting heavy then you won't be able to push yourself properly for your intervals - which makes the whole thing pointless.

BossArky

Yes I know. Long day at work, was knackered and had to eat something. I did the deadlifts to allow myself time to digest some of the food.