running/ heart rate

cantdecide

Hey folks, I'm not a regular poster here but some may remember me asking about knee trouble last year.

Well the way it panned out is that after probably going over the 20st mark I started running in the middle of last May until the middle of August when after a week of not running (stupid overtime:mad:) I basically ended up injuring my knee.

I eventually overcame it but not until the middle of November by which time I was half way back to square one. I've been running virtually every day before breakfast since and I've been building up my endurance again from about 1Km in NOV to about 5km in laps for the last few weeks in my local rugby club.

I have noticed that the weight is barely shifting despite the huge efforts I'm putting in (eating properly but walking around hungry half the time). I decided to give an exercise bike at home a go in the evenings for 20 mins (for now) at speed with the reistance mainly up around 70%/80% at a speed of about 15(I don't know i it's meant to be KMs). It has a heart rate function and I made a surprising (to me, anyway) discovery.

When I start off, my heart rate goes up to about 140bpm. It starts falling way down as i progress. it could be back down to about 90-100 even though I'd be peddling faster and adding resistance as I go. It's very annoying to be pressing on harder and faster, sweating and panting more and more and to see my heart rate falling steadily.

Is this normal?? Should I alter some aspect of my exercise.

louthandproud

cantdecide wrote: »

Hey folks, I'm not a regular poster here but some may remember me asking about knee trouble last year.

Well the way it panned out is that after probably going over the 20st mark I started running in the middle of last May until the middle of August when after a week of not running (stupid overtime:mad:) I basically ended up injuring my knee.

I eventually overcame it but not until the middle of November by which time I was half way back to square one. I've been running virtually every day before breakfast since and I've been building up my endurance again from about 1Km in NOV to about 5km in laps for the last few weeks in my local rugby club.

I have noticed that the weight is barely shifting despite the huge efforts I'm putting in (eating properly but walking around hungry half the time). I decided to give an exercise bike at home a go in the evenings for 20 mins (for now) at speed with the reistance mainly up around 70%/80% at a speed of about 15(I don't know i it's meant to be KMs). It has a heart rate function and I made a surprising (to me, anyway) discovery.

When I start off, my heart rate goes up to about 140bpm. It starts falling way down as i progress. it could be back down to about 90-100 even though I'd be peddling faster and adding resistance as I go. It's very annoying to be pressing on harder and faster, sweating and panting more and more and to see my heart rate falling steadily.

Is this normal?? Should I alter some aspect of my exercise.

Sounds like you are incredibly fit or the monitor isn't working properly. Probably the latter.

--amadeus--

Seconded - the monitor is on the blink, you should be able to get a proper one from a sports shop and wear it when running as well.

You need to work out your max HR and from that you can calculate the amount of effort you should be working at in order to gain the most benifit. Lots of low intensity excercise is best for weight loss, I think?

cantdecide

louthandproud wrote: »

Sounds like you are incredibly fit

:DWow thanks, Louthandproud. How about that- incredibly fit...

--amadeus-- wrote: »

You need to work out your max HR

Will sort heart monitor at weekend:).

How does one find out max HR without consulting the grim reaper??

Racing Flat

You can go for a fitness test - where they should do an incremental test to maximum exertion. Failing this, the home made version - apparently if you go out and run as hard as you can for 5 minutes you should get a maximum reading - something like a 1500m race would tell you.
then you calculate 70-80% of your max HR and try to do 30mins to an hour in this zone 5 times a week or so. This would be basic aerobic training, possibly most appropriate for you at this stage and obviously you might need to spend some time building up to this.

As you improve and if you wish to progress your running/fitness you could introduce some speed work - If you go to 90% (only for 20mins or so) you will be working your lactate threshold (making you fitter) and if you want to improve your speed you would go up to 98% and up (for 2 minutes maybe, rest for 2 minutes repeat 5 or 6 times).

A generic means of calculating your max heart rate is to work out 220 minus your age, but this is quite generic so while it is approximately accurate for some people, and can occasionally be way out.
Good luck.

Stark

--amadeus-- wrote:

You need to work out your max HR and from that you can calculate the amount of effort you should be working at in order to gain the most benifit. Lots of low intensity excercise is best for weight loss, I think?

I'll have to go googling for links, but the general concensus is that the statement "low intensity = fat loss" is inaccurate. A varied training plan with some resistance training thrown in would be best for losing weight.

hunnymonster

My prefered homemade version of the homemade max HR test is -
Find a hill that looks scary, run up it as hard as you can, jog down it, repeat 10 times (or untill you puke - no I'm not joking!). This should get you pretty close to your max.

220-age is pretty generic (btw ist 226 - age for a woman). There are other methods out there as well.
http://www.roller-montreal.com/indexa.htm?ent/cardioa.htm
is worth a read.

If you are a geeky nerd though the lab tests are very interesting. Typically there will be HR, lactate testing, fat measurement, flexability, lung capacity and other weird and wonderful data. I'm getting one done at the end of Feb and I'm looking forward to seeing how I have progressed (or not) since the last one, two years ago. Unfortunately I have the feeling the fat % is not going to have improved.

hunnymonster

Stark wrote: »

I'll have to go googling for links, but the general concensus is that the statement "low intensity = fat loss" is inaccurate. A varied training plan with some resistance training thrown in would be best for losing weight.

it is one of those half truths. Low intensity (<70% MHR) work will take a higher percentage of the total calories used from fat stores than higher intensity work. It is often advocated because it is possible to sustain for long periods of time so overall lots of fat used. Time for time though, high intensity work will (1) burn more total calories (2) probably use more fat calories (with a lower % of total) but has the disadvantage that you can't keep it up for as long. I'm not sure if I've explained that clearly.

Resistance training (if done properly) helps to make muscle. Muscle needs calories just to survive so having more muscle means you need more calories so you can eat more without gaining weight (and lose weight if you've an overall negative balance intake v's usage)

T runner

Cantdecide,

amadeus is right low intensity excercise is required as this is the intensity marathoners use as at this pace fat as the bodys source of energy.

Even the greats like Gebresallaise do a lot of their running at this intensity. At the moment you may be training at an intensity too high for weight loss. This is not unnatural starting off as the first sessions may all feel hard and you are eager to get results, but i feel you could slow down a bit. Go at an intensity that you feel you could keep training at and increasing steadily over a period of months without having to layoff.

How long could you stay on the bike trainer at an easier intensity?
Maybe try 25-30 mins going easy enough: when you get off the bike you shouldnt be flaked out but pleasantly tired.

I guess youre doing your running on grass? Get a good pair of cushioned runners and try it on tarmac for a while. Youll be able to run at a lower intensity and for longer.

Healthy diet and excercise are guaranteed to give weight loss, Ive seen it happen plenty of times in people from similar starting points to yourself and all have shed the stones down to their natural weight.

All thats required is consistency and patience. Patience is for not expecting overnight success, keeping the intensity low and believing your plan will suceed if you perservere. Consistency is assured by having a plan in place If you slip up on the health regime, The plan is dont give up go back to it.

Best of luck!


P.S max test: try 3 k on the rugby pitch and then do one lap all out without a rest. Stop for a minute and then do another lap all out. You should hit max on the second lap.

Fernando1

Cantdecide - From my experience, about 3/4 of weight loss comes from your diet rather than exercise. The gains of a 20-30 minute workout can easily be undone in a small snack. I'd concentrate on your diet as the main means of losing weight and supplement this with regular exercise rather than hoping to lose the weight by exercising. There's something wrong if you're hungry all the time though.

Hunnymonster - Where are you getting the fitness test done? I want to find my max HR but don't want to risk a heart attack sprinting up a hill.

gar_29

hunnymonster wrote: »

My prefered homemade version of the homemade max HR test is -
Find a hill that looks scary, run up it as hard as you can, jog down it, repeat 10 times (or untill you puke - no I'm not joking!). This should get you pretty close to your max.

a really good hill for that is from the hell fire club car park to the summit - if that doesn't kill you, then nothing will!!

hunnymonster

Fernando1 wrote: »

Hunnymonster - Where are you getting the fitness test done? I want to find my max HR but don't want to risk a heart attack sprinting up a hill.

This time around I'm going to the sports performance lab in UCC (I moved to Cork during the summer). Contact person there is Trevor Woods. Last time around I was based in Dublin and used the Trinity department of physiology. Bernard Donne is the guy in there. I would imagine all the uni's have similar capabilities. There are also commercial centres out there but the names escape me at the moment (yes I am that old)

cantdecide

:)Thanks for all the tips- you've given much to think about...

hunnymonster wrote: »

or untill you puke - no I'm not joking

I was on the bike the other day trying to keep my heartrate up above 105(!) and i nearly gawked:D:D:D Has also happened once or twice when out running but not recently.


Maybe this is wrong but I wanted to slim down before I dove into really improving my fitness. I'm tall, stocky, poor postured and I'm still carrying a few stone too many. I'm pretty restricted to the grass (correction- mud) too as my knee is still a factor, probably because of the work it's being asked to do. I'm having to keep the pace of to avoid pounding it and then I'm breathless. I'm kinda feeling like I'm full of catch 22s.

Maybe you could help me with one specific thing- how much time should I spend running (at a moderate pace) to effectively lose weight. I'm not looking for overnight results but I'm not sure if my current method is yielding results at all.

hunnymonster

I'm overweight too so it's very much a case of do as I say not as I do! Losing weight is a simple equation if you get
energy used > energy injested
you WILL lose weight.
The following is taken from the fitness forum (and specifically from g'em)

The information and equation shown here is taken from The Complete Guide to Sports Nutrition but isn't just applicable to atheletes, it shoes the calorie requirements for everyone.

1) So.. first off you need to figure out your resting metabolic rate (RMR) or the calories your body requires just to exist if you were lying down for 24 hours:

Age Men
10-18 (body weight (kg) * 17.5) + 651
19-30 (bw (kg) * 15.3) + 679
31-60 (bw (kg) * 11.6) + 879

Age Women
10-18 (bw (kg) * 12.2) + 746
19-30 (bw (kg) * 14.7) + 496
31-60 (bw (kg) * 8.7) + 829

e.g for me, a 72kg 26 yo female its (72*14.7) +496 = 1554

2) Then calculate your lifestyle daily energy needs:

Activity level
mostly seated or standing RMR * 1.4
regular walking or equivalent RMR * 1.7
generally physically active RMR * 2.0

again for me its 1554 * 1.4 = 2176

3) Then estimate your daily exercise expenditure by working out how much exercise you do a week and divide by seven for an average daily value:
Weekly I do 4 hours of weights = approx 1536 cals
2 hours low intensity cardio = 600 cals
2 hours high intensity cario = 1200 cals
Total = 3336 / 7 = 477 cals

So add that to my daily energy needs.. 2176 + 477 = 2653

My maintenance calorie needs every day are 2653 cals/ day.

For weight loss: I need to reduce my calories by about 15% a day:
2653 * 0.85 = 2255 cals/ day

For weight gain: Increase your calorie intake by 20%:
2653 * 1.2 = 3184

While I totally agree with her RMR numbers (or at least think they are the best you can do without some pretty serious lab tests) I do feel the cardio data is more debatable. A good starting place for the calorie values of different exercises along with a food diary is
www.fitday.com
It's a bit of a pain to fill out (particularly as the products are geared to an american audience) but well worth doing.

If your knee will not sustain the amount of running needed to lose weight (with the diet you wish to have) then have a look at other types of exercise. front crawl swimming is relatively easy on your knees (breast stroke isn't!)