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Should Ahern Resign?

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    #32
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Tommy T wrote: »
    Wrong. We'd be living in london, New York and Sydney building a life for ourselves that would be impossible to achieve in the land of our birth. You're clearly too young to remember the devestating after Christmas scenes in Dublin Airport when fathers and children, husbands and wives had to be seperated due to our basketcase economy.

    Thankfully those days are history...

    Ochon agus ochon o. Why do people insist on using the "you weren't there" guff? Ease off there man. It wasn't that bad. It wasn't the Famine all over again. Devastating statistically for Ireland, yes, but if you were part of it there was a certain buzz to not being here. 1980s Ireland was not a terribly nice place to be anyway.

    As to the question well, we get the government we deserve. As some people have observed, the vast majority just don't care. If Bertie had been in a private company he would have had his P45 long ago, not because he is necessarily corrupt , but simply because his judgement is seriously impaired and he fails to understand what it is to be a CEO.


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    #33
    Tommy T
    Closed Accounts Posts: 274 ✭✭Tommy T


    is_that_so wrote: »
    Ochon agus ochon o. Why do people insist on using the "you weren't there" guff? Ease off there man. It wasn't that bad. It wasn't the Famine all over again. Devastating statistically for Ireland, yes, but if you were part of it there was a certain buzz to not being here. 1980s Ireland was not a terribly nice place to be anyway.

    As to the question well, we get the government we deserve. As some people have observed, the vast majority just don't care. If Bertie had been in a private company he would have had his P45 long ago, not because he is necessarily corrupt , but simply because his judgement is seriously impaired and he fails to understand what it is to be a CEO.

    Oh it was 'that' bad mate. Believe me. My own family was seperated for economic reasons. My father and mother left Ireland in the early 1960's leaving my three older siblings in the care of our maternal grandmother. they saw our parents two times a year, once in the summer and once at Christmas.

    This went on until I came along in 1972. My mother made the decision to rare me back in ireland but my father couldn't afford to leave his job in London as there was little or no prospects of a similar job in Ireland. So he stayed on alone for a further 11 years until he was able to take early retirement.

    My family's story was repeated by tens of thousands up and down the country and continued on well into the late 80's.

    That trauma wasn't imagined and please don't be flippant about real pain and sufering caused by our ecnomicnightmare...


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    #34
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Tommy T wrote: »
    Oh it was 'that' bad mate. Believe me. My own family was seperated for economic reasons. My father and mother left Ireland in the early 1960's leaving my three older siblings in the care of our maternal grandmother. they saw our parents two times a year, once in the summer and once at Christmas.

    This went on until I came along in 1972. My mother made the decision to rare me back in ireland but my father couldn't afford to leave his job in London as there was little or no prospects of a similar job in Ireland. So he stayed on alone for a further 11 years until he was able to take early retirement.

    My family's story was repeated by tens of thousands up and down the country and continued on well into the late 80's.

    That trauma wasn't imagined and please don't be flippant about real pain and suffering caused by our ecnomicnightmare...

    I am not being flippant and am not making light of your or any other personal circumstances.
    I do think that what happened in the 50s and 60s was a tragedy , especially given that many people forced to leave, would have limited opportunities and probably would have had far lower levels of education.
    I am less inclined to accept that the 80s, bad enough as it was, compares with that period. Given the ease of travel, the difference in education levels and more importantly opportunities, I think that experience added far more benefit than to those of that earlier generation.


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    #35
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,310 ✭✭✭markpb


    People like Tommy T scare me because there are so many of them who will continue to vote and support FF. Sure, things are going well for most people right now so they're happy. No thought for the people who can't get to work without a three hour commute because FF failed to build any decent transport infrastructure, the people who lie on hospital trollys because they didn't introduce a decent health system, the people who have to drive even further on their commute because there school system is a mess, the companies who talk of leaving Ireland because our cost of living is so high and our telecoms system is so poor.

    The list goes on but the truth is we are a cash-rich nation but we are a poor country and in years to come people will look back and wonder how we built so little when we had so much money. Our Celtic Tiger might have roared louder than anyone else but we'll be left with its scars long after everyone has forgotten about us. The Germans will be able to go into a hospital and be seen in a reasonable timeframe and the French will be commuting to work using the TGV, the motorway and the metro long after we're still watching people commute from Cavan to Dublin because they can't sell their houses.


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    #36
    Tommy T
    Closed Accounts Posts: 274 ✭✭Tommy T


    I'm all for leaving Ireland and experienceing different cultures as long as its voluntary and not forced upon anyone for economic reasons. In the mid-80's unemployment was running at 20%, income tax rates were through the roof and the World Bank was ready to forclose on Ireland Inc.

    Things were that bad...


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    #37
    Tommy T
    Closed Accounts Posts: 274 ✭✭Tommy T


    markpb wrote: »
    People like Tommy T scare me because there are so many of them who will continue to vote and support FF. Sure, things are going well for most people right now so they're happy. No thought for the people who can't get to work without a three hour commute because FF failed to build any decent transport infrastructure, the people who lie on hospital trollys because they didn't introduce a decent health system, the people who have to drive even further on their commute because there school system is a mess, the companies who talk of leaving Ireland because our cost of living is so high and our telecoms system is so poor.

    The list goes on but the truth is we are a cash-rich nation but we are a poor country and in years to come people will look back and wonder how we built so little when we had so much money. Our Celtic Tiger might have roared louder than anyone else but we'll be left with its scars long after everyone has forgotten about us. The Germans will be able to go into a hospital and be seen in a reasonable timeframe and the French will be commuting to work using the TGV, the motorway and the metro long after we're still watching people commute from Cavan to Dublin because they can't sell their houses.

    If I had an attitude like that I'd be running for nthe nearest rifle to put me out of my misery...:D

    The items you mention are to a great extent related to our own success. 20 years ago if you told someone we'd be the best performing economy in Europe, we'd have difficulties with Cavan people making their way to work from HOME(not having to emigrate automatically after leaving school) and that nigh on 20 billion quid was being pumped into the health system from Tax returns(not irresponsible borrowing a la the FG/Lab disaster) you'd be laughed at...

    The health system is unrecognisable from a decade ago, is far better resourced and has great difficulties matching the new standards expected from the public. The HSE has serious issues, no doubt about that. However give me our health system today over 1988 anyday of the week...


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    #38
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Again one of the reasons why I question the 1980s "disaster". I was part of it. I was made redundant and I headed off on a "great adventure". It was an opportunity, in the same that it was an opportunity for the myriads of Irish I met on my travels in subsequent years. What made it a "disaster" , even the Torygraph in England covered it, was the sheer numbers. Many people who went away were able to build new lives, get on in ways they might not have done at home. It was also the time of the first cheap flights, Virgin and the like, and the nightmare of the Bus from London to Hollyhead :p. Incidentally the high PAYE rates had been there for a long time and did not just appear in the 1980s.


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    #39
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Tommy T wrote: »
    You are spot on in your observations about Civil Servants. They do a sterling job behind the scenes. However its the politicians whom we elect and its their heads on the chopping block if things go up the spout.

    When did you last see a politician's head on a chopping block ?

    Bertie - [edit]: stays in office
    Charlie - [edit] : stays in office and dies before he's fully investigated and charged
    Dempsey - screws up broadband, etc : stays in office
    Idiot who made us pay for e-voting machines : stays in office
    O'Dea & all the other FFailures - shafted Shannon to stay in their cushy jobs

    Need I go on ?

    [edit -erm we don't know yet -Psi] - we do know the first 4 items are true, though, and that's plenty reason to chuck him out.


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    #40
    Tommy T
    Closed Accounts Posts: 274 ✭✭Tommy T


    is_that_so wrote: »
    Again one of the reasons why I question the 1980s "disaster". I was part of it. I was made redundant and I headed off on a "great adventure". It was an opportunity, in the same that it was an opportunity for the myriads of Irish I met on my travels in subsequent years. What made it a "disaster" , even the Torygraph in England covered it, was the sheer numbers. Many people who went away were able to build new lives, get on in ways they might not have done at home. It was also the time of the first cheap flights, Virgin and the like, and the nightmare of the Bus from London to Hollyhead :p. Incidentally the PAYE rates had been there for a long time and did not just appear in the 1980s.

    For sinlge people travel is great and should be encouraged. But as in your own case you were made redundant therefore the decision to emigrate was in a way forced on you.

    The PAYE rates were as high as ever during the 1980's and the great scandal was the tax take was not able to fund Current Account spending hence the IMF/World Bank were ready to takeover. dark days indeed...


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    #41
    Tommy T
    Closed Accounts Posts: 274 ✭✭Tommy T


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    When did you last see a politician's head on a chopping block ?

    Bertie - [edit]: stays in office
    Charlie - [edit]: stays in office and dies before he's fully investigated and charged
    Dempsey - screws up broadband, etc : stays in office
    Idiot who made us pay for e-voting machines : stays in office
    O'Dea & all the other FFailures - shafted Shannon to stay in their cushy jobs

    Need I go on ?

    [edit] - we do know the first 4 items are true, though, and that's plenty reason to chuck him out.

    A politician puts his head on the line everytime he/she faces the voters in an election. Those in the Civil Service have safe/secure jobs for life...


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    #42
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,310 ✭✭✭markpb


    Tommy T wrote: »
    The items you mention are to a great extent related to our own success.

    Glad you agree, FF managed our success badly and could have done a much better job. Most people will agree we've been doing well for at least ten years but at no time during those ten years, did they ever try to use the money wisely. There was no plan for investment in infrastructure, no overview of where things were going, just ad-hoc, election promises that weren't often carried out.

    You might call me a pessimist but if the economy goes south and we haven't invested in services, people will have to emigrate yet again, something which could easily have been avoided.


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    #43
    Tommy T
    Closed Accounts Posts: 274 ✭✭Tommy T


    markpb wrote: »
    Glad you agree, FF managed our success badly and could have done a much better job. Most people will agree we've been doing well for at least ten years but at no time during those ten years, did they ever try to use the money wisely. There was no plan for investment in infrastructure, no overview of where things were going, just ad-hoc, election promises that weren't often carried out.

    You might call me a pessimist but if the economy goes south and we haven't invested in services, people will have to emigrate yet again, something which could easily have been avoided.

    If the economy goes south then no amount of railwaylines will prevent it mate.

    There has been a huge amount of Capital investment all round the country in roads, hospitals and general services. To suggest otherwise is just not being true to reality...


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    #44
    AckwelFoley
    Registered Users Posts: 12,556 ✭✭✭✭AckwelFoley


    snip.. new thread started


    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=54880273#post54880273


    ..


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    #45
    Tommy T
    Closed Accounts Posts: 274 ✭✭Tommy T


    1. What party do you believe would be a more successful government? None

    2. Are you over 18 and Registered to vote? Yes

    3. Did you vote in the last general election? Yes


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    #46
    Bduffman
    Registered Users Posts: 520 ✭✭✭Bduffman


    Tommy T wrote: »
    As Clark Gable said to Vivien Leigh Frankly my dear I don't give a damn.

    And there in a nutshell lies the problem with Irish politics. People are willing to put up with corruption as long as they get what they want. Just as long as FF satisfy 30 odd per cent of the population thats enough for them to retain power & dupe fools from various other parties by dangling power in front of them. Nothing ever justifies corruption - the day people believe that the country cannot be run properly without being on the make is a sad day indeed. Don't forget, most of this corruption was going on at times when a great number of us were on the dole or in crap jobs while we looked on in disbelief at the arrogance of these crooks. Don't forget also that FF were in power for the vast majority of the history of this state and the country has been mismanaged for the majority of that time. What has happened in recent times has little to do with them - indeed they have squandered what has been built up in that time that is starting to come back to haunt us now. Until we see what another party or coalition can do after 10 - 15 years in power you can't say FF are any better than anyone else. Its people like you who vote for the same party again & again no matter what that turns people against politics in this country - I'll bet your parents (& probably their parents) voted for them as well eh? Well if thats what makes you vote for corrupt politicians thats just sad.


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    #47
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    snyper wrote: »
    Simple questions i propose to everyone here.

    1. What party do you believe would be a more successful government?

    2. Are you over 18 and Registered to vote?

    3. Did you vote in the last general election?

    Mightn't this be better in a separate thread?


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    #48
    AckwelFoley
    Registered Users Posts: 12,556 ✭✭✭✭AckwelFoley


    is_that_so wrote: »
    Mightn't this be better in a separate thread?
    Yes, i will delete that post and start a new thread ;)


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    #49
    El Stuntman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,720 ✭✭✭El Stuntman


    Tommy T wrote: »
    There has been a huge amount of Capital investment all round the country in roads, hospitals and general services. To suggest otherwise is just not being true to reality...

    why aren't we seeing the results of this investment then?

    why are all of these projects coming in years late and way over budget?


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    #50
    Tommy T
    Closed Accounts Posts: 274 ✭✭Tommy T


    Bduffman wrote: »
    And there in a nutshell lies the problem with Irish politics. People are willing to put up with corruption as long as they get what they want. Just as long as FF satisfy 30 odd per cent of the population thats enough for them to retain power & dupe fools from various other parties by dangling power in front of them. Nothing ever justifies corruption - the day people believe that the country cannot be run properly without being on the make is a sad day indeed. Don't forget, most of this corruption was going on at times when a great number of us were on the dole or in crap jobs while we looked on in disbelief at the arrogance of these crooks. Don't forget also that FF were in power for the vast majority of the history of this state and the country has been mismanaged for the majority of that time. What has happened in recent times has little to do with them - indeed they have squandered what has been built up in that time that is starting to come back to haunt us now. Until we see what another party or coalition can do after 10 - 15 years in power you can't say FF are any better than anyone else. Its people like you who vote for the same party again & again no matter what that turns people against politics in this country - I'll bet your parents (& probably their parents) voted for them as well eh? Well if thats what makes you vote for corrupt politicians thats just sad.


    Thats Democracy for you. the People vote for thier preferred candidates. Tyranny of the majority...;)


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    #51
    Tommy T
    Closed Accounts Posts: 274 ✭✭Tommy T


    El Stuntman wrote: »
    why aren't we seeing the results of this investment then?

    why are all of these projects coming in years late and way over budget?

    So you see no imporvement in the road systems from 15 years ago? You've missed the new hospital building programmes?

    I think you'll also find the majority of projects come in on time and within budget with the exceptions highlighted in the media...


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    #52
    musiknonstop
    Registered Users Posts: 289 ✭✭musiknonstop


    Tommy T reads like press release from FF, even down to Bertie Aherns "doom mongers commiting suicide" gaff.

    FF's legacy is of planning failures, driven by back handers from their developer buddies, means single people can't afford property unless earning well above the avergage industrial wage, and those couples who can afford to buy property have to commute hours every day.

    Bertie Ahern is a disgrace.


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    #53
    Tommy T
    Closed Accounts Posts: 274 ✭✭Tommy T


    musiknonstop wrote: »
    Tommy T reads like press release from FF, even down to Bertie Aherns "doom mongers commiting suicide" gaff.

    FF's legacy is of planning failures, driven by back handers from their developer buddies, means single people can't afford property unless earning well above the avergage industrial wage, and those couples who can afford to buy property have to commute hours every day.

    Bertie Ahern is a disgrace.

    OK. So all you're asking for is a 3 Bed Semi-D for 100K, in Dublin 4 and your job to be around the corner. Not alot to ask is it...:D

    You go to any other successful Western Economy at out stage of development and you'll find very similar issues. They don't have Bertie to blame for them either...;)


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    #54
    El Stuntman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,720 ✭✭✭El Stuntman


    Tommy T wrote: »
    So you see no imporvement in the road systems from 15 years ago? You've missed the new hospital building programmes?

    I think you'll also find the majority of projects come in on time and within budget with the exceptions highlighted in the media...

    Dublin journey times 15 years ago compare extremely favourably to today. I can't speak for the rest of the country.

    On hospitals, the health service is a disgrace! Surely you can't deny this?


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    #55
    musiknonstop
    Registered Users Posts: 289 ✭✭musiknonstop


    No, other developed economies have a well regulated, reasonably priced rental market, where a single person can rent their own property and enjoy security of tenure
    without having the share a house with strangers.


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    #56
    30txsbzmcu2k9w
    Closed Accounts Posts: 578 ✭✭✭30txsbzmcu2k9w


    I reckon theres a few Young Fianna Failers trolling the forum here.

    Bertie makes me sick. Fianna Fail are the rotten core of irish politics.

    50 facts here make for some good reading

    http://thatsireland.com/2007/11/05/fianna-fails-fifty-ways-to-laugh-at-voters/


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    #57
    Tommy T
    Closed Accounts Posts: 274 ✭✭Tommy T


    El Stuntman wrote: »
    Dublin journey times 15 years ago compare extremely favourably to today. I can't speak for the rest of the country.

    On hospitals, the health service is a disgrace! Surely you can't deny this?

    Car ownership levels have grown exponentially over the last decade. the massive road building programme is only just about coping with this other result of our successful economy. nowadays its not uncommon to see three cars in an average driveway. Something unheard of in the past.

    The health system has some serious management issues but as always we only hear about the problems, real as they are, and never about the vast majority of patients who have a satisfactory experience...


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    #58
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    Tommy T wrote: »
    ...By the way your view or mine of his suitability is irrelevent as the reality of the situation tells us that the People voted him into Office for a third straight term...

    No 40% of 68% of the people voted him if I remember correctly. Btw the area with the highest population is also where Bertie is from. Bertie is/was riding a wave.


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    #59
    Tommy T
    Closed Accounts Posts: 274 ✭✭Tommy T


    musiknonstop wrote: »
    No, other developed economies have a well regulated, reasonably priced rental market, where a single person can rent their own property and enjoy security of tenure
    without having the share a house with strangers.

    It's al about supply and demand mate. Finally supply has caught up with demand and I have seen rents plateau already in the last 6 months and this trend will continue...


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    #60
    AckwelFoley
    Registered Users Posts: 12,556 ✭✭✭✭AckwelFoley


    El Stuntman wrote: »
    Dublin journey times 15 years ago compare extremely favourably to today. I can't speak for the rest of the country.

    On hospitals, the health service is a disgrace! Surely you can't deny this?

    15 years ago there were far less ppl in the country. 15 years ago there were fcuk all decent companies operating here. We are a bigger faster busier economy now.

    As for the health service, while not ideal, its far from the "disaster" that the media try to make out it is.

    Ive been through the health system here, not as a private patient, twice this year alone

    How long was i waiting in A & E with my broken hand? About 45 mins.

    How much did the treatment, and subsequent treatment cost me? Nothing.

    Yes there are issues in the health service but like all other health services there are issues.


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    #61
    Tommy T
    Closed Accounts Posts: 274 ✭✭Tommy T


    CerebralCortex wrote: »
    No 40% of 68% of the people voted him if I remember correctly. Btw the area with the highest population is also where Bertie is from. Bertie is/was riding a wave.

    The present Irish government is made up of 50+% of those who voted.. Fact...


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