Should Ahern Resign?

El Stuntman

juuge wrote: »

She sure did, on the breakfast show (newstalk) this morning.

mustn't have had her herbal tea yet

there'll be fun and games when Bertie gets back from SA.
Has any FF'er come out with specific reasons as to why Kenny is a 'barefaced liar'?

jmayo

juuge wrote: »

Mary O'Rourke today called Enda Kenny's behaviour towards bertie as an 'act of treason'.
No mention of course of the behaviour of CJH who sold Irish passports.
It's has always amazed me how reluctant the lenihan family are to criticise the Fianna Fail leadership, especially mary o rourke who's brother brian lenihan was publicly shafted by CJH. There's a lot more to this than meets the eye. Judging by the recent over-the-top reaction of the likes of mary o rourke and senior ministers within FF it looks as though we are finally getting nearer the truth.

Birds of a feather and all that ?
BTW what are the Irish treason laws ?
Jeeze we will have snpyer on here now defending his county woman Mary if you say anymore about her.

El Stuntman wrote: »

mustn't have had her herbal tea yet

there'll be fun and games when Bertie gets back from SA.
Has any FF'er come out with specific reasons as to why Kenny is a 'barefaced liar'?

What with the huge mental capacity of some of our politicans (especially a few FFers) then could it become conceivable that one strays too far into slander/libel land and wouldn't that be fun if they were hit with a writ fromm Mr Kenny.
Where is Willie or better still Dick
Of course just remembered Dick will not be rushing out to defend someone that demoted him.
It's such a pity that O'Donoghue his tongue tied.

dresden8

juuge wrote: »

Mary O'Rourke today called Enda Kenny's behaviour towards bertie as an 'act of treason'.
It's has always amazed me how reluctant the lenihan family are to criticise the Fianna Fail leadership, especially mary o rourke who's brother brian lenihan was publicly shafted by CJH. There's a lot more to this than meets the eye. .

That's because there's lots more Lenihans in politics looking to climb Bertie's greasy pole. They will forgive and forget everything about Brian because after all, politics is the art of selling out. When did you last see a politician stand up for anything?

When it's time for Bertie to fall on his sword the Lenihans will be lined up right behind Cowan.

oscarBravo

jmayo wrote: »

BTW what are the Irish treason laws ?

Treason is generally defined as "giving aid and comfort to enemies of the state". Whatever the specifics of Irish law on the topic, it's obvious hyperbole on Mammy's part. FF must be getting really desperate for that kind of hysteria to be taking hold - normally they reserve that level of mud-slinging for when they're in opposition.

murphaph

Kenny has held his tongue long enough while he has been called names by the arrogant FF. I don't like Kenny. I don't dislike Kenny. He has no charisma-I have no problem with that whatsoever. I want him to be next Taoiseach because I want FF out. I want the irish people to prove me wrong when I say that they are generally a bunch of self serving individuals with no concept of society and who only care about a penny in the pound off their income tax!

Kenny should sue that unbelievably silly bint O'Rourke (who is responsible for the Luas not being linked, remember!) for slander. Is she entitled to Dail privlidge on a radio talkshow or something??!!

FF squirming though. But the electorate will have forgotten all about this spat of corruption come the next election.

Mr.Micro

The answer is there for FF, if the party is really worried about its image, ditch Bertie, instead of attacking Mr.Kenny in the form of ma O Rourke. Bertie does not give two hoots for the future of the party, he is having his now.

Red Alert

There is enough to morally indict Bertie Ahern even without the current scandal he is caught in. Bertie Ahern has presided over an economy that my grandparents could only have dreamed of. Taxes are low, personal freedoms (for now) are safe and there is close to full employment.

Yet people in Ireland are badly off holistically, and many people are badly off financially. There is lavish expenditure on things we don't need, and lack of will on things we do. There is a 'smoke and mirrors' approach to everything - which is why we are told not to 'talk down' the economy. Government PR activity and that of state bodies is at an all time high. But there is a substance deficit, because there is a leadership deficit. That comes from the top, since Bertie has shown himself to be indecisive. Because indecision to him is preferable to making a pragmatic 'wrong' decision.

Every crisis that Bertie has been presented with has been faced off with inaction and indecision. He did not move to dismiss or suspend pending exhoneration persons such as Liam Lawlor, Ray Burke, Jim McDaid, Beverley Flynn and others under suspicion of alleged and proven offenses in a timely fashion. He is not a strong voice for Ireland or for Europe in general. It's easier for him to force others' decisions on us as a nation than for him to represent us in a strong and robust way. We had Nice Mk1 and Nice Mk2 because we didn't get the right answer, according to Bertie. We 'have' to vote yes to the new treaty - which let's face it there's something wrong with it if two nations voted no to what most voters is the same thing. Electronic voting has been shown to be poorly implemented using substandard equipment and insecure software with no audit trail - what does he do? - goes on a rant about stupid old pencils.

Enough in my view to make someone unfit to continue in a job.

Then there's the fact that he professes open and outright contempt for a legally enshrined investigative body of the state who are charged with investigating payments to politicians - of whom he is one. The people I feel sorry for are the Nora Wall's and Frank McBrearty's of this world who have really had their privacy and good name torn to shreds. And he's worried about his perceived loss of privacy - get real!

Any interrogator would tell you his behaviour when asked about certain payments he may have received immediately raises suspicion. That in itself makes him shifty and unbecoming of office. Or is it an elaborate ploy to try to connect with the 'little people' of whom he professes he is one. His agitation is either insincere or is a giveaway that he is not telling the full and unobfuscated truth.

This man has to go.

Tommy T

There's something about those McBrearty's that just gets under my skin.

Anyway I digress. Red Alert, without sounding like a broken record here the Tribunal thats costing us hundreds of millions of Euro has got nothing on Bertie or Owen o'Callaghan. Considering the vast cost I have little or no confidence in it. I'm not corrupt or crooked either.

Being an FF supporter seems to be something to look down ones nose at among the arrogant naval gazing amateur Fintan O'Tooles here.

Some things never change...

murphaph

Tommy T wrote: »

There's something about those McBrearty's that just gets under my skin.

Anyway I digress. Red Alert, without sounding like a broken record here the Tribunal thats costing us hundreds of millions of Euro has got nothing on Bertie or Owen o'Callaghan. Considering the vast cost I have little or no confidence in it. I'm not corrupt or crooked either.

Being an FF supporter seems to be something to look down ones nose at among the arrogant naval gazing amateur Fintan O'Tooles here.

Some things never change...

I hold my hands up and say I was a FF supporter at the second last general election. I voted 1,2 FF. I will NEVER make the same mistake again.

It amazes me that more people don't realise putting FF back into power is a mistake.

What annoys you about McBrearty? That he showed up flaws in this state? Is he a traitor too?

Good Post Red Alert. Summed up my sentiments exactly. I voted Varadkar no.1 last time round and overall I'm glad I did. Today he was quoted on radio. He said (words very close to) "It's time we grew up as a democracy and dropped the sleveen (exact word) and cute whoorism (exact words)". Spot on Leo. I'm sick to death of this who you know b0ll0x getting people places. Ahern has too many builder/developer mates. How dare he even pretend to be "one of the little people". He's a swindling ba$tard who has absolutely no shame or decency, like all in FF. Like I said.....never again. Why can't we have Conservative/Labour/Liberal Democrats here!!

dresden8

Tommy T wrote: »

There's something about those McBrearty's that just gets under my skin.

Maybe you should have the Garda take care of them?

LostinBlanch

Dresden,


that's just misidirection. If you spend time talking about the McBrearty's then you're not talking about Berties mysterious handouts characterised by him as digouts and loans.

Capiche?

And Murphaph don't forget about O'Rourkes involvement in the eircom scam and saying no to a free 2nd terminal at Dublin airport. I think she was one of the worst ministers we have ever had in this country. Well probably excluding Todd Andrews who closed the Harcourt St line Part of which was later transformed into the LUAS.

Tommy T

Maybe we should keep the McBreartys, and my intense personal dislike of the family, for another thread...

There's plenty of things one can put on the table as a valid criticism of Bertie's stewardship that can be debated but when we start going back to Todd Andrews days then I know you lot are getting desperate...:D

Bduffman

snyper wrote: »

Would i care if he he provided favours for cash? Certainly, absolutely.

But there is no evidence that he has done so, you can call it "reality" i call it slander

Right - so a businessman gives a politician cash and doesn't expect anything in return? How many businessmen do you know that gives away money? Isn't making money why they are in business in the first place? You are either very naive or (more likely) in denial. Just because the proof hasn't been unearthed yet (and I stress 'yet') doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Why do you think there has been so much undermining of the tribunal by government ministers? They know the truth will be uncovered eventually & are scared s**tless.

Bduffman

Tommy T wrote: »

There's something about those McBrearty's that just gets under my skin.

Anyway I digress. Red Alert, without sounding like a broken record here the Tribunal thats costing us hundreds of millions of Euro has got nothing on Bertie or Owen o'Callaghan. Considering the vast cost I have little or no confidence in it. I'm not corrupt or crooked either.

Being an FF supporter seems to be something to look down ones nose at among the arrogant naval gazing amateur Fintan O'Tooles here.

Some things never change...

I was waiting for the old 'the high cost of the tribunals' chestnut to be raised - I'm surprised it took this long. Something that is usually ignored is the observation by the tax commissioners in 2006 that it is reckoned that the extra revenue gained in newly declared tax since the tribunals is estimated to be double the cost of ALL of the five major tribunals to date. Therefore it is more than self-financing and long may it continue until it gets to the bottom of the corruption in this country .

Tommy T

Bduffman wrote: »

I was waiting for the old 'the high cost of the tribunals' chestnut to be raised - I'm surprised it took this long. Something that is usually ignored is the observation by the tax commissioners in 2006 that it is reckoned that the extra revenue gained in newly declared tax since the tribunals is estimated to be double the cost of ALL of the five major tribunals to date. Therefore it is more than self-financing and long may it continue until it gets to the bottom of the corruption in this country .

Do you mean tax collected as a direct result of the tribunal's investigations...?


I find that very hard to believe.. Got a link to this...?

AckwelFoley

Bduffman wrote: »

Right - so a businessman gives a politician cash and doesn't expect anything in return? .

philanthropy

Bduffman

snyper wrote: »

philanthropy

Hahahahahahahahahaha.

No seriously - I didn't know Bertie was a charity

AckwelFoley

No, but in all seriousness, if i was as wealthy as these men are and i had a friend in need, id have no problem giving a lad a dig out.

murphaph

snyper wrote: »

philanthropy

Naivete

You really think hard headed businessmen who give money to Bertie Ahern are philanthropic? Could they not pick someone who earns less than a quarter of a million quid a year to give money to? Maybe St. Vincent's Hospital-you know, the one where all the Cystic Fibrosis patients go to get cross infected and die 15 years younger than their affected friends in Europe and America. Oh wait, that can't be true, sure FF wouldn't have allowed that situation to develop.

El Stuntman

snyper wrote: »

:DNo, but in all seriousness, if i was as wealthy as these men are and i had a friend in need, id have no problem giving a lad a dig out.

maybe so, but....how come none of these 'friends' (such as O'Connor who has repeatedly said he wasn't a friend, hmmm) who allegedly gave Bertie cash can back up their cash 'donations' with matching bank account withdrawals?

strange, eh?

Bduffman

Tommy T wrote: »

Do you mean tax collected as a direct result of the tribunal's investigations...?


I find that very hard to believe.. Got a link to this...?

Was on radio 1 last week - unfortunately as you can imagine its hard to find exact figures on this. This is a estimate by the revenue based on the change in the culture of the country due to greater transparency in the country today - if I find the quote I'll let you know.
I think you'll agree that our 'cute hoor' culture has changed for the better as a result of the tribunals? Even if the revenue estimate is wildly over exagerated, it makes the point that the cost of the tribunals is nothing like what it seems. However the benefit is worth any money.

El Stuntman

some high-minded quotes:

"The making of such a large personal loan on more favourable conditions than would be available from any lending institution would clearly represent a personal favour that ought to be declared."

"Financial gifts have to be declared for Capital Acquisitions Tax purposes if they exceed the threshold. In principle, apart from token presentations in respect of functions perfrormed at home and abroad, neither politicians nor officials should accept personal gifts of value from outside their family."

"An incomplete, complex, convoluted explanation, constructed long after the event, will have less and less credibility as time goes by."

"The longer a satisfactory explanation is outstanding, the more the question arises as to whether deputy XX is a fit person to be a member of this House"

Pop Quiz!

Who made the above quotes and who was he talking about?

juuge

El Stuntman wrote: »

maybe so, but....how come none of these 'friends' (such as O'Connor who has repeatedly said he wasn't a friend, hmmm) who allegedly gave Bertie cash can back up their cash 'donations' with matching bank account withdrawals?

strange, eh?

I think you'll find that all of Bertie's so-called-friends will, if they haven't already been visited by the revenue commissioners. Who needs friends like that? Happy days.

murphaph

El Stuntman wrote: »

some high-minded quotes:

"The making of such a large personal loan on more favourable conditions than would be available from any lending institution would clearly represent a personal favour that ought to be declared."

"Financial gifts have to be declared for Capital Acquisitions Tax purposes if they exceed the threshold. In principle, apart from token presentations in respect of functions perfrormed at home and abroad, neither politicians nor officials should accept personal gifts of value from outside their family."

"An incomplete, complex, convoluted explanation, constructed long after the event, will have less and less credibility as time goes by."

"The longer a satisfactory explanation is outstanding, the more the question arises as to whether deputy XX is a fit person to be a member of this House"

Pop Quiz!

Who made the above quotes and who was he talking about?

It mut be Ahern but was he talking about Lawlor or Lowery?

Rock Climber

El Stuntman wrote: »

maybe so, but....how come none of these 'friends' (such as O'Connor who has repeatedly said he wasn't a friend, hmmm) who allegedly gave Bertie cash can back up their cash 'donations' with matching bank account withdrawals?

strange, eh?

O Connor can be explained simply,he never expected to be questioned on the unusual manner of the donation he arranged so now he's covering his árse from what I can make out.
Falling out with Ahernseems to be a necessary by product.

As for backing up cash donations with lodgements and withdrawal slips,I'm sure if they had a time machine they'd go back and do that but really and truly when you are talking about very wealthy people, they often have that sort of cash on tap and don't need to account for it as it's already been taxed in some way shape or form.
What they do with their after tax income is their own affair.

Who made the above quotes and who was he talking about?

Ok I'll bite and assume it was Ahern talking about someone else ?
Whats the point? There are politicians in the Dáil that have said many things in various different contexts that evolve to different positions.
In fact I think you'll find Ahern plus loads of sitting non FF politicians probably on record somewhere opposing divorce,contraception and abortion catholic church style in a different context to what they would advocate today.

El Stuntman

Rock Climber wrote: »

As for backing up cash donations with lodgements and withdrawal slips,I'm sure if they had a time machine they'd go back and do that but really and truly when you are talking about very wealthy people, they often have that sort of cash on tap and don't need to account for it as it's already been taxed in some way shape or form.

so all of Bertie's 'pals' (btw meeting bertie three times or less seems to qualify you as a mate and dig-out worthy) deal exclusively in cash? How convenient....

Rock Climber

juuge wrote: »

I think you'll find that all of Bertie's so-called-friends will, if they haven't already been visited by the revenue commissioners. Who needs friends like that? Happy days.

Why? If you have paid your taxes and are very wealthy,you are perfectly entitled to hand over what you like to who ever you like and it's none of the revenue commissioners business.

Are you suggesting that if my local shop owner is a personal friend of mine and I decide to do all my shopping there despite it costing me more that I will be in trouble with the revenue?
By implication thats what you are saying.
Hello,this isn't stazi East Germany we are living in.

The only valid query that the Revenue will be interested in , is if they have any reason to believe that funds were sourced from a non taxed fund somewhere.
If Aherns dig out pals are and were very wealthy which they were then that avenue of query is a non starter given that they can show that they would have had an ample source of excess funds lying around.

Mind you I'm sure the level of vitriol I've read in this thread , three quarters of it hear say and un supported opinion lends it self to people having happy thoughts about every FF'er ever in creation heading to the slammer...

Maybe we should be taking those German lessons after all ?

Tommy T

Rock Climber wrote: »

Why? If you have paid your taxes and are very wealthy,you are perfectly entitled to hand over what you like to who ever you like and it's none of the revenue commissioners business.

Are you suggesting that if my local shop owner is a personal friend of mine and I decide to do all my shopping there despite it costing me more that I will be in trouble with the revenue?
By implication thats what you are saying.
Hello,this isn't stazi East Germany we are living in.

The only valid query that the Revenue will be interested in , is if they have any reason to believe that funds were sourced from a non taxed fund somewhere.
If Aherns dig out pals are and were very wealthy which they were then that avenue of query is a non starter given that they can show that they would have had an ample source of excess funds lying around.

Mind you I'm sure the level of vitriol I've read in this thread , three quarters of it hear say and un supported opinion lends it self to people having happy thoughts about every FF'er ever in creation heading to the slammer...

Maybe we should be taking those German lessons after all ?

The illiberal intolerance of FF from the 'Liberal' Left is something to behold alright...

Rock Climber

El Stuntman wrote: »

so all of Bertie's 'pals' (btw meeting bertie three times or less seems to qualify you as a mate and dig-out worthy) deal exclusively in cash? How convenient....

Well in fairness I'd well believe that they did.
All of them were men and I'd imagine not averse to the view that Ahern is going through a separation,lets not make it easy for Miriam to trace the cash.
That would be my view of what went on.I've no evidence for that,It's just an opinion but my experience of humans lend me to thinking I'd not be surprised if thats why it was all cash.
I've seen nothing proven or close to proven to lend me to think like the rest of ye that there was corruption involved.
Though I have to say I'm not impressed with the hiding of the money from the wife if that is the case.
It's commonly done but not laudable at all.

juuge

Rock Climber wrote: »

Why? If you have paid your taxes and are very wealthy,you are perfectly entitled to hand over what you like to who ever you like and it's none of the revenue commissioners business.?

Try not to be too nieve - people who are drawn into the public arena for handing out unsolicited amounts of cash, particularly to a serving politition, will attract the attention of the revenue, that's their job and that's the way it works.