Should Ahern Resign?

oscarBravo

Rock Climber wrote: »

Though I have to say I'm not impressed with the hiding of the money from the wife if that is the case.
It's commonly done but not laudable at all.

A more interesting question is: is it legal?

murphaph

Rock Climber wrote: »

Maybe we should be taking those German lessons after all ?

Probably. It's Stasi (from Staatssicherheit) not Stazi.

Rock Climber

juuge wrote: »

Try not to be too nieve - people who are drawn into the public arena for handing out unsolicited amounts of cash, particularly to a serving politition, will attract the attention of the revenue, that's their job and that's the way it works.

Oh is it now?
The revenue cannot go after monies that have already been taxed properly-Fact.

OscarBravo wrote:

A more interesting question is: is it legal?

Probably not, but that would depend on whether at this stage Miriam would want to chase him up on that given that she would have been the other party to whatever agreement might have been breached.
I'd imagine she and the girls would rather give their bolicking privately though.

murphaph

Rock Climber wrote: »

Probably not, but that would depend on whether at this stage Miriam would want to chase him up on that given that she would have been the other party to whatever agreement might have been breached.
I'd imagine she and the girls would rather give their bolicking privately though.

But in fairness, if (and I say if) Ahern has hidden monies from his family like that, do you rally want that man in charge? I want a man or woman of honour in charge.

juuge

Rock Climber wrote: »

Oh is it now?
The revenue cannot go after monies that have already been taxed properly-Fact..

The revenue would firstly make enquiries as to whether or not the individuals were tax compliant, that's their job. No one is talking about taking tax twice.

is_that_so

Tommy T wrote: »

The illiberal intolerance of FF from the 'Liberal' Left is something to behold alright...

It not always being a case of being completely anti FF. There are many valid questions about what they are doing.
They are equally many valid unanswered questions about the leader of the country. I, for one, do not see him as fit to continue in office. But I may vote for FF in the future , if I believe that it serves the common good. I certainly don't believe they do at present.

Rock Climber

juuge wrote: »

The revenue would firstly make enquiries as to whether or not the individuals were tax compliant, that's their job. No one is talking about taking tax twice.

Which is the click on a keyboard.
You are however ignoring my point that a tax compliant Revenue customer would laugh and rightly so at Revenue questions to them about already taxed monies that they had given Ahern the use of.

To suggest otherwise of them is as big a leap as to suggest that Ahern wont be adjudged tax compliant after Mahon is finished.

It smacks to me of more of this "stasi [murpaph spelling noted] like" put all the FF'ers in the clink quick mentality thats pervasive in this thread.
Thankfully this is a democracy and long may that continue.

murphaph wrote:

But in fairness, if (and I say if) Ahern has hidden monies from his family like that, do you rally want that man in charge? I want a man or woman of honour in charge.

I'd be happy enough to go with the voting publics decision on that one.It's not a quality I'd look for in a Taoiseach for sure but then I'd attach a weighting to all attributes not just the one.
Thats what a majority of the electorate have done in the past and most likely will do in the future.
Hence we never elect saints.

jmayo

Tommy T wrote: »

There's something about those McBrearty's that just gets under my skin.

Anyway I digress. Red Alert, without sounding like a broken record here the Tribunal thats costing us hundreds of millions of Euro has got nothing on Bertie or Owen o'Callaghan. Considering the vast cost I have little or no confidence in it. I'm not corrupt or crooked either.

Being an FF supporter seems to be something to look down ones nose at among the arrogant naval gazing amateur Fintan O'Tooles here.

Some things never change...

And why did the tribunals cost x amount ?
Has it anything to do with fact that certain FF politcians and their cronies refused to answer questions and provide evidence or dragged the tribunal to the high court every ferw weeks to try and limit it's terms of reference ?

I would rather be looking down my nose than up someone's ar**, taking the shi** we are been fed as excuses.

How anyone can condone the taking of large sums of money by the person responsible for the country's finances, who has a bearing on tax policy decisions, from various businessmen is beyond me and most right thinking people in this country.
But of course we are labelled media led leftie lackies, moaners, pessimists trying to ruin the economy, begruders and now the latest one is traitors.

What next?
Possibly heretics, resulting in the punishment of being burnt at the stake outside FF HQ ?

AckwelFoley

Rock Climber wrote: »

Mind you I'm sure the level of vitriol I've read in this thread , three quarters of it hear say and un supported opinion lends it self to people having happy thoughts about every FF'er ever in creation heading to the slammer...

No Sh1t!

What amuses me is that any thread or post that one makes that doesnt jump on the "Che Guivara" "Bertie and the builder friends" "Left wing" bandwagon are crooks and somehow until you posted in this thread out numbered 30:2

What i want to know is , that if the general population had the same view as is represented here on boards, how come we dont have a Sinn Fein / Labour Majority Government?

murphaph

snyper wrote: »

What i want to know is , that if the general population had the same view as is represented here on boards, how come we dont have a Sinn Fein / Labour Majority Government?

Most people here have alluded in your other thread that they would vote FG/LAB to oust FF.

Of course those who post here will not form an accurate cross section of the electorate. That's a given.

However I can't be the only one who previously voted FF and has since changed their opinion on them?

El Stuntman

snyper wrote: »

What amuses me is that any thread or post that one makes that doesnt jump on the "Che Guivara" "Bertie and the builder friends" "Left wing" bandwagon are crooks and somehow until you posted in this thread out numbered 30:2

What i want to know is , that if the general population had the same view as is represented here on boards, how come we dont have a Sinn Fein / Labour Majority Government?

strange generalisation Snyper, I think you'll find that many of the contributors are FG/PD supporters - hardly left wingers?

another example of smokes and daggers (™ The Bert) imo!
All the better to confuse the issues around a Minister for Finance (and now Taoiseach) whose position is hopelessly compromised by a Tribunal which his own government set up...when the facts don't help you, just start throwing out all manner of distractions

1. criticise the tribunal "dey are out to get me!"

2. criticise the costs of the tribunal and especially fees for 'fat cat lawyers' (popular target for your Indo-reading man in the street)

3. call the leader of the opposition a barefaced liar (without specifying why)

4. call the leader of the opposition's behaviour 'treasonous'

I could go on....

CerebralCortex

snyper wrote: »

No Sh1t!

What amuses me is that any thread or post that one makes that doesnt jump on the "Che Guivara" "Bertie and the builder friends" "Left wing" bandwagon are crooks and somehow until you posted in this thread out numbered 30:2

What i want to know is , that if the general population had the same view as is represented here on boards, how come we dont have a Sinn Fein / Labour Majority Government?

But I'm confused did the general population actually do that? I could be wrong and correct me if I am but 27% (41% of the 68% that voted) gave FF their No.1 vote. Am I wrong? I'll gladly accept it if I am wrong but 27% is not the general population.

Tommy T

jmayo wrote: »

And why did the tribunals cost x amount ?
Has it anything to do with fact that certain FF politcians and their cronies refused to answer questions and provide evidence or dragged the tribunal to the high court every ferw weeks to try and limit it's terms of reference ?

I would rather be looking down my nose than up someone's ar**, taking the shi** we are been fed as excuses.

How anyone can condone the taking of large sums of money by the person responsible for the country's finances, who has a bearing on tax policy decisions, from various businessmen is beyond me and most right thinking people in this country.
But of course we are labelled media led leftie lackies, moaners, pessimists trying to ruin the economy, begruders and now the latest one is traitors.

What next?
Possibly heretics, resulting in the punishment of being burnt at the stake outside FF HQ ?

The huge costs are caused by the Tribunal continually going beyond its remit, investigating every bit of tittle tattle and coming up with nowt at the end of the day.

At least we can console ourselves with the thought of the Legal profession not going without I suppose... Poor dears...:D

Rock Climber

CerebralCortex wrote: »

But I'm confused did the general population actually do that? I could be wrong and correct me if I am but 27% (41% of the 68% that voted) gave FF their No.1 vote. Am I wrong? I'll gladly accept it if I am wrong but 27% is not the general population.

Well 57% of those that voted in the boards.ie election poll wanted some variation of Enda Kenny in Government.
Even allowing for the vote early vote often nature of these polls,I'd imagine the general populace of this board and that of the country as a whole are very different fish.In fact they are obviously..I mean look at the SF "support" here versus reality.

Secondly as stated earlier more than 50% of the Dáil support this government and even allowing for the fact that a lot of people who protest voted green didnt want this government, the party members/activists themselves voted in a large majority to endorse going into it.
Green part support in opinion polls since has actually rose a bit since the election,make of that what you will.

But if you are trying to suggest by your post that a return to government by Ahern was not voted for by the people of Ireland then you'd be mistaken as they could have done it even without the greens.
Labour ended up with one seat less.
Whilst FG gained a lot of seats they still didnt win back the number they lost in the 2002 election,they ended up with one less than then which was hardly an inspiring performance given they were dealing with a supposedly "unpopular" incumbent.

People made their choices and to be perfectly frank the opposition need to go back to school and discover what it is that people want rather than having to desperately claw at a topic people are bored with,in some vain hope that they deserve power just for the sake of it.
They don't,they have to convince people that putting them in is a good idea.
They're continuing to make an árse of it in my opinion.
Ah well c'est la vie.Maybe some day we'll be blessed with a capable opposition.

AckwelFoley

CerebralCortex wrote: »

But I'm confused did the general population actually do that? I could be wrong and correct me if I am but 27% (41% of the 68% that voted) gave FF their No.1 vote. Am I wrong? I'll gladly accept it if I am wrong but 27% is not the general population.

The Majority of the electoral in this country did vote for this government.

CerebralCortex

The point I'm making is the guys in power are there through apathy. I found out from here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_general_election%2C_2007#Result
that only 2/3 of those who are elligible to vote actually voted. The number that didn't is far greater than those who voted first preference for FF. But hey that is ones right in a democracy, that is, not to vote. I just hate this idea that Aherne is there because an overwhelming amount of people voted for them because they are so great when in reality they are expert at playing the system(imo).
People in this country should know better.

AckwelFoley

Apathy my areshole.

If you dont vote, i feel one should STFU complaining about things.

I feel very strongly about this,

However you will find that if the country was as bad as ppl make out.. voter numbers would be higher.

Look at democratic countries with good economies.. they usually dont have high turnouts because voters are content.

Saying "i dont vote because they're all crooks" or "what difference will my vote make" is the biggest cop out ever.

I dont care who you vote for once you vote, the right to vote is the single biggest value of a democratic society which im glad i live in.

CerebralCortex

snyper wrote: »

Apathy my areshole.

If you dont vote, i feel one should STFU complaining about things.

I feel very strongly about this,

However you will find that if the country was as bad as ppl make out.. voter numbers would be higher.

Look at democratic countries with good economies.. they usually dont have high turnouts because voters are content.

Saying "i dont vote because they're all crooks" or "what difference will my vote make" is the biggest cop out ever.

I dont care who you vote for once you vote, the right to vote is the single biggest value of a democratic society which im glad i live in.

Again thats not the point I'm making and I did vote. And there are plenty of people who are not content that I know who didn't vote, because they are unsure about the system or it was made quite difficult for them to do so. I agree with you about not being able to complain. May I ask why are you so die hard when it comes to defending FF? Change is good.

AckwelFoley

I mean "you" in the third person..

If you (in the 3rd person) dont know or are unsure about the system, get ur ass out and bloody find out!

Trust me if it was "that bad" you can be sure they would find out!

CerebralCortex

And the reason your so die hard FF? As far as it being not that bad well it could be a lot better. Talking to my Polish work mate how it was puzzuling to him and his contemporaries how for a country so rich neglects is social responsibiltie for exmple the proliforation of cheap public transport or at least will to proliforate chep public transport.

duggie-89

snyper wrote: »

Apathy my areshole.

If you dont vote, i feel one should STFU complaining about things.

I feel very strongly about this,

However you will find that if the country was as bad as ppl make out.. voter numbers would be higher.

Look at democratic countries with good economies.. they usually dont have high turnouts because voters are content.

Saying "i dont vote because they're all crooks" or "what difference will my vote make" is the biggest cop out ever.

I dont care who you vote for once you vote, the right to vote is the single biggest value of a democratic society which im glad i live in.

i disagree i believe that just because you have the right to vote doesn't mean you have to vote. its your right to do it but at the end of the day its your own choice.

but again people dont vote for what is out their if they like none of the parties and the canidates then what is the point of them voting. because voting is a public sign that you support the ideas and aims of that party.

murphaph

duggie-89 wrote: »

i disagree i believe that just because you have the right to vote doesn't mean you have to vote. its your right to do it but at the end of the day its your own choice.

but again people dont vote for what is out their if they like none of the parties and the canidates then what is the point of them voting. because voting is a public sign that you support the ideas and aims of that party.

I disagree. I believe that even if you don't think the opposition will be any better, you ought to vote them in if you are dissatisfied with the incumbents. This is the only way to make the incumbents work for you and change their ways. If they believe they will be re-elected no matter how poorly they behave then they will behave as poorly as they can get away with.

duggie-89

murphaph wrote: »

I disagree. I believe that even if you don't think the opposition will be any better, you ought to vote them in if you are dissatisfied with the incumbents. This is the only way to make the incumbents work for you and change their ways. If they believe they will be re-elected no matter how poorly they behave then they will behave as poorly as they can get away with.

then what good does that bring about???? your merly rebranding the same old sh,it. what you really need is to have real change. and if your talking about ireland and the south then what you have is FG getting power from FF but wat excatly would the difference be??? if it was any other country FF and FG would be the same party.

what i think your getting about is you want 100% turn out maybe somewhat forced turn out???

well if that was to happen to people who really didn't care about voting the outcomes might be what looks good and not wat is good. as people who dont take interest will usualy go with wat sounds good without looking to deep into it.

AckwelFoley

Ppl should not be forced to do anything.

But its common that in countries where the citizens are happier, more content, there is a lower turnout.

If there was a bill in the morning . . proposing Join the United Kingdom..

I assure you you'd get over 90% turnout..

Why?

Because ppl care, its somthing that will really effect their lives.

Where as a change in government in this country is not going to create widespread changes simply because all the realistic contenders are moderate.

Labour, FF, FG

CerebralCortex

snyper wrote: »

....But its common that in countries where the citizens are happier, more content, there is a lower turnout....

You've said this twice now. I don't doubt you but proof would be wonderfull.
Thanks.

Ps I see how your responses are very selective towards murphaph's posts.

juuge

murphaph wrote: »

The publicans and estate agents who make up the ranks of FF must really be laughing that people like your good self still eat their sh!t and think they care about the common good.

Well said, that about sums it up!

El Stuntman

murphaph wrote: »

The publicans and estate agents who make up the ranks of FF must really be laughing that people like your good self still eat their sh!t and think they care about the common good.

also agree

which is why I actually feel somewhat sorry for the diehard FF'ers. It's not a nice thing to see the belief system that you cherish crumble in front of you (somewhat like being a East German Communist as the Wall came down, I'd imagine). I actually hope that FF stay in power for the full term so that there are no hiding places when the full scale of their mismanagement becomes apparent in the next few years.

Rock Climber

Bduffman wrote: »

You must read the sun or the mail yeah? Sounds like their kind of drivel.

I think most FF'ers stopped reading the mail when Frank Connolly went on their employ

I actually hope that FF stay in power for the full term so that there are no hiding places when the full scale of their mismanagement becomes apparent in the next few years.

It's all cycles you know,I'd like to think the opposition wouldn't make as many mistakes (or good decisions too) but usually when I hear Kenny I squirm and say thanks be to fuck he's not Taoiseach tbh.
They should give the job to Olivia Mitchell

murphaph wrote:

The publicans and estate agents who make up the ranks of FF must really be laughing that people like your good self still eat their sh!t and think they care about the common good.

I've a publican cousin by the way thats chairperson of the local FG..At least half the estate agents I know also support that party.
Nice meaningless oneliner there though.

oscarBravo

I'd like to take a moment to point out the thread title, and ask people to get back on topic, ta.

DeepBlue

Apologies for not reading the last six pages so the following might already have been posted.

Bertie Ahern has, by his own admission, received money from businessmen for his own use while he was a Minister.
Whatever about his subsequent "explanations" at the Tribunal - for that reason alone he should resign.

That fact that he hasn't resigned and can't even bring himself to agree that what he did was wrong means that no member of his party can now object if any elected official receives bribes or payoffs.
I'm not suggesting that Bertie was bribed or paid off as I have no proof of that but, unfortunately, those who do bribe politicians don't pay into an account marked "Corrupt Payments". It would make matters much simpler for all of us if they did.

Therefore receiving sums of money for personal use should remain verboten for a politician - because there is no way of ascertaining for certain if strings are attached or not. The penalty for receiving such money should be immediate loss of office. Otherwise you have a free-for-all.

Let's not fool ourselves - if any other politician in Fianna Fail had been caught out like Bertie they would have been thrown out long ago.