Anti-social behaviour in Limerick

RonMexico

Ok so the whole problem with the drug gangs is well known but what about the rampant anti-social behaviour in every housing estate in the city. I am going to talk about the Thomondgate area in particular. The situation has totally gotten out of hand. Night after night the area is under siege from a gang of youths aged between 10 and 18yrs old. There is a core group of about 15 who constantly hang around outside one house in particular and cause mayhem. They are all drinking and high and run amok every night breaking windows and terrorising everyone. They know that nothing will happen to them because they are underage, if you call the guards they find out because they listen in on scanners and then put bricks through your windows. Cars are being robbed and burnt out constantly. One of these joyriding thugs is going to kill somebody out here. It has gone beyond a joke. The guards are rarely to be seen and when they do show up they can do nothing because the laws aren't there. ASBO's were supposed to stop this **** yet has anyone received one - NO! There is so much bull**** procedures and red tape that they are not being used at all. Something needs to be done about these animals.

Tea Leaf

So now that you know legislation and bits of paper aren't working, what are you going to do?

You're a member of this community so as a community member, are you going to continue to rely on Gardai - an undertrained, underfed and unsupported resource - or are you going to put your mouth into action?

I hope I'm not sounding condescending as this is not my intention but as someone who, in addition to living in Limerick, has also lived in some very rough spots in the States and Australia, it's not enough to point the finger at everyone else when it comes to antisocial behaviour.

There's a reason for this behaviour and most of it boils down to insecurity on the part of the perpetrators. When you look at the kind of society we're all encouraging, it's really not hard to see why.

I don't claim to be a guru on urban planning or community relations but here are some things that assisted our community at a time when houses were being firebombed, elderly women were being raped, children were being abducted and assaulted and paybacks were rampant.

1. Establish a link with the local Police. Most branches have a community liaison officer. Keep that link alive by reporting weekly. Same applies for your local Council. Get your local member on side and communicate regularly.

2. Get to know the people living in your neighbourhood and establish a network. Note where they live and try and get together regularly even if it's just to say hello. You'd be surprised just how many people think that they're totally on their own in this life. A friendly face and someone to know does wonders for the esteem and encourages community cohesion.

3. Get some community credentials (eg. Justice of the Peace or youth work assistant) to establish and maintain trust or approach those you think would fit the role. It's important for a community to have a focal point.

4. Visit local schools, church, whatever and volunteer your time. By people getting to know you, but more importantly you get to know people - a very handy skill in a time of crisis.

5. Friendly neighbourhood patrol. Men play a *vital* role in community leadership. When our elderly neighbour was raped by intruders, some of the men in our neighbourhood would go for walks around the nearby streets, keeping an eye out but not in a menacing way, just a few mates having a chat but being present. An hour or two each day brought more people forward who were willing to help and instilled confidence in people at a time when a lot of us were worried about where we were living.

6. Football. The world game and the great connector. We established a Sunday match that still goes to this day, three years after its inception and it really changed the landscape. We found that a lot of people could not afford to pay the registration fees required by various bodies in the local football comp so we set up our own. As a result, a lot of lads who would otherwise be out stealing and causing affray, were busy training for matches. Aside from that, some great players emerged and made for some brilliant games.

Not saying the above will solve all your problems but the buck starts and stops with you, the community member and what you're prepared to put up with. Remember, we all teach people how to treat us. So rather concentrate on the messers, why not focus on those of you who care about the area first and work from there?

Amazotheamazing

I'd echo everything said above.

Yes there is a problem, but you and your neighbours need to be part of the solution.

One thing I would suggest is arrange a residents committee and work on things to improve the area, and pride in the area. Doesn't have to be anything fancy, community games are easy to set up and great for bringing neighbours together.

It's too easy to post on here about Guards doing nothing, but that's no reason you shouldn't stand up and do something yourself.

RonMexico

Tea Leaf wrote: »

So now that you know legislation and bits of paper aren't working, what are you going to do?

You're a member of this community so as a community member, are you going to continue to rely on Gardai - an undertrained, underfed and unsupported resource - or are you going to put your mouth into action?

I hope I'm not sounding condescending as this is not my intention but as someone who, in addition to living in Limerick, has also lived in some very rough spots in the States and Australia, it's not enough to point the finger at everyone else when it comes to antisocial behaviour.

There's a reason for this behaviour and most of it boils down to insecurity on the part of the perpetrators. When you look at the kind of society we're all encouraging, it's really not hard to see why.

I don't claim to be a guru on urban planning or community relations but here are some things that assisted our community at a time when houses were being firebombed, elderly women were being raped, children were being abducted and assaulted and paybacks were rampant.

1. Establish a link with the local Police. Most branches have a community liaison officer. Keep that link alive by reporting weekly. Same applies for your local Council. Get your local member on side and communicate regularly.

2. Get to know the people living in your neighbourhood and establish a network. Note where they live and try and get together regularly even if it's just to say hello. You'd be surprised just how many people think that they're totally on their own in this life. A friendly face and someone to know does wonders for the esteem and encourages community cohesion.

3. Get some community credentials (eg. Justice of the Peace or youth work assistant) to establish and maintain trust or approach those you think would fit the role. It's important for a community to have a focal point.

4. Visit local schools, church, whatever and volunteer your time. By people getting to know you, but more importantly you get to know people - a very handy skill in a time of crisis.

5. Friendly neighbourhood patrol. Men play a *vital* role in community leadership. When our elderly neighbour was raped by intruders, some of the men in our neighbourhood would go for walks around the nearby streets, keeping an eye out but not in a menacing way, just a few mates having a chat but being present. An hour or two each day brought more people forward who were willing to help and instilled confidence in people at a time when a lot of us were worried about where we were living.

6. Football. The world game and the great connector. We established a Sunday match that still goes to this day, three years after its inception and it really changed the landscape. We found that a lot of people could not afford to pay the registration fees required by various bodies in the local football comp so we set up our own. As a result, a lot of lads who would otherwise be out stealing and causing affray, were busy training for matches. Aside from that, some great players emerged and made for some brilliant games.

Not saying the above will solve all your problems but the buck starts and stops with you, the community member and what you're prepared to put up with. Remember, we all teach people how to treat us. So rather concentrate on the messers, why not focus on those of you who care about the area first and work from there?

Thanks for the response. Points 1-4 have already been done with little or no effect. Now on to points 5 & 6. There is a lot of fear in this community as regards standing up to these thugs. I agree 100% with what you are saying in regards to the men of the community standing up together and making their presence felt. The problem in relation to this is that they are afraid of reprisals if they do this. To give you an example of what I am talking about one man that stood up to them had a gun put in his face and was ordered to get out of the area, another had threats made about their children walking to and from school. This seems to have put off a lot of people. Secondly it seems like more and more of those who are willing to do something are simply moving out of the area. Slowly but surely the nicer people of Thomondgate are being outnumbered by the scum. I agree that the community has to do something together but at the moment they seemed to be paralysed by fear.

As for point 6 well there is a local soccer team but the troublemakers have zero interest in playing sports. All they are interested in is drugs, cars & booze. They stand outside this house in hail, rain or snow until all hours of the night. Ask them for a kickaround and they look at you as if you have two heads. Even when the World Cup is on or any big sporting even and they don't even bother watching it on tv. They just don't give a ****.

Now there is CCTV camera's being put up in the trouble areas which have been paid for by the community who raised the money which does prove that people care. We will soon see if they have any effect. There is a real danger here that Thomondgate is going to be the next Moyross or Southill. It is that bad. I cannot do a lot on my own but I'll see if I can get some support. I think a bunch of guys need to make their presence felt on the street at night.

RonMexico

Has anybody tried using one of those mosquito devices that you read about? Just wondering have they been used in Limerick yet.

Tea Leaf

May I ask how you went about implementing points 1 to 4 before writing them off? Not to criticise, just genuinely curious.

Community building takes time. I hear you loud and clear regarding reprisals. When I was teaching in the Northern Territory, the weapon used by locals was rape. You try and educate the children and you get people trying to bash your door down at night. I will spare other details but let's just say, as much as I know the Thommondgate area, I've lived in violent communities.

And there's a way around this.

Remember, there is safety in numbers. That doesn't men the men stand up on their own. Women of the community must be equally supportive. To start thinking that scum have outnumbered the good means you have lost the battle before you've even started. Because one must also remember superiority is a state of mind.

Let me ask, if you're willing to see a bunch of men out on the street at night, are you prepared to feed them? Are you prepared to get a group of your fellow neighbours to help you? This is just an example of what I'm trying to get at. I know it sometimes appears like a hopeless case. Getting the motivation isn't easy. People are scared and fear is a crippling disease.

In times of war, a people must rally and exercise skills they never think to use, such as leadership. Society teaches us to shut up and put up - one only has to glance at the papers or the style of government to see this. So, if the road to conquering means walking the kids to school, no matter the inconvenience, then do it. If it means carrying a video camera with you, do it. If it means posting pictures of these people on the internet then do it. If it means starting a blog and documenting each and every case by case infraction then do it.

I'm not asking to do this on your own. And neither do I underestimate the feelings of isolation and grief about being on your own and thinking you have this big problem on your hands that you think no one else seems to care about.

I am a big believer in community events but you need to organise and give it time.

I am half a world away. I can help you as far as strategy goes but you need more than that. You need bums on seats. You need voices to add to the weight of your message. Maybe others on this board will read this. Maybe they'll be living in other areas but find this problem a CITY problem rather than just a suburb one and they'll offer to help.

But don't think this is an isolated problem because it's not - this is happening the world over and it can be overcome.

The key, the secret: don't give up.

Sunn

I 100% agree with tea leaf.

Its not an easy thing to do but over time it will improve.

Once you show you are not afraid of their intimidation tactics and the bulk of the community rally behind you they will move on.

anyone thinking of some sort of vigilante group to try and fix things just wont work. It could easily end up bringing more trouble to the estate.

Kess73

RonMexico wrote: »

Has anybody tried using one of those mosquito devices that you read about? Just wondering have they been used in Limerick yet.

Just saw in today's paper that the gangs that the mosquito device is meant to deter may now be able to sue if they can prove it was turned on near them.

RonMexico

Kess73 wrote: »

Just saw in today's paper that the gangs that the mosquito device is meant to deter may now be able to sue if they can prove it was turned on near them.

Yeah read that too. What the **** is wrong with this country? What arsehole makes these laws?:mad:

Tea Leaf

And the plaintiff will have to prove that their presence at a premise was lawful. There is, in Irish law, a place for contributory negligence wherein you put yourself at risk and then subsequently suffer an injury - which you have to prove as well by the way.

The device emits a modulated sound at 17kHz which is not audible to those beyond the 25 year old range due to natural hearing losses associated with age. However, I am over 25 and it's audible to me. It also hurts, whether you can hear it or not.

This presents a reasonable case for those who are walking by premises with a lawful reason who are adversely affected by it. I would imagine that children would find this particularly painful and bewildering. And, in addition to its "anti youth" focus, it is for this reason I cannot endorse the use of this product. There are other, better ways to police this issue. Hurting people not only puts you at the level of the scum you say you dislike, it is only going to incite further anger from those who are loitering as well as innocent people who happened to be exposed to it unaware.

You can listen to it here. It's short enough to experience an effect which is best described as a 'tightening of the ear' - short enough not to do damage but long enough to give you an idea.

http://graphics.nytimes.com/packages/audio/nyregion/20060610_RINGTONE.mp3

bullets

Tea Leaf wrote: »

A
You can listen to it here. It's short enough to experience an effect which is best described as a 'tightening of the ear' - short enough not to do damage but long enough to give you an idea.

http://graphics.nytimes.com/packages/audio/nyregion/20060610_RINGTONE.mp3

Is the mp3 an example of what its supposed to sound like to someone under 25 ?
ie is it designed to mimic the sound so older people can have an example of what
it would sound like to a younger person?

Wondering cos I can hear the mp3 just fine and I'm in my 30's.

~B

RonMexico

Tea Leaf wrote: »

And the plaintiff will have to prove that their presence at a premise was lawful. There is, in Irish law, a place for contributory negligence wherein you put yourself at risk and then subsequently suffer an injury - which you have to prove as well by the way.

The device emits a modulated sound at 17kHz which is not audible to those beyond the 25 year old range due to natural hearing losses associated with age. However, I am over 25 and it's audible to me. It also hurts, whether you can hear it or not.

This presents a reasonable case for those who are walking by premises with a lawful reason who are adversely affected by it. I would imagine that children would find this particularly painful and bewildering. And, in addition to its "anti youth" focus, it is for this reason I cannot endorse the use of this product. There are other, better ways to police this issue. Hurting people not only puts you at the level of the scum you say you dislike, it is only going to incite further anger from those who are loitering as well as innocent people who happened to be exposed to it unaware.

You can listen to it here. It's short enough to experience an effect which is best described as a 'tightening of the ear' - short enough not to do damage but long enough to give you an idea.

http://graphics.nytimes.com/packages/audio/nyregion/20060610_RINGTONE.mp3

I wouldn't say it is anti-youth but more anti-scumbag who hangs around harrassing people all day. People are turning to this device as a last resort because the so called "better ways to police this issue" are not working. Loitering laws are not enforced and neither are ASBO's. Giving them a hug and an invitation to a game of football only works in la-la land.

gaf1983

I just played that mosquito thing to my younger siblings and they said it's only a bit irritating, they don't think it would stop someone mugging someone if that's what the person wanted to do. What do ye think of pepper spray as an alternative to our mosquito friend? And while I agree with Tea Leaf that meeting violence with violence does have the effect of bringing everyone onto the same level, and there is a risk of reprisals, sometimes self-defence is necessary.

RonMexico

The little ****s are bragging on bebo now about what they are doing

utick

RonMexico wrote: »

The little ****s are bragging on bebo now about what they are doing

links???

billy the squid

If you do a proper search of bebo, or youtube, you will find the stuff he is on about. please do not post links to people's bebo pages accusing them of criminal activity. If you find a bebo page containing such, report it to the admins on bebo.com.

RonMexico

Yeah I was thinking of that billy. It is however a source of good info on who the main culprits are though.

Burp Bleugh

http://www.limerickleader.ie/3419/Northside-residents-emergency-meeting-on.3708856.jp

BarryCreed

I fear it will get to a stage, where vigilante groups will be set up, and someone is going to end up doing time for beating the f**kers.
It seems they only know full well they can get away with it as they are underage. You also don't know these days, what weapons they could be carrying, like knives etc etc. and if you do stand up to them, you live in fear of reprisals. If I did catch someone breaking into my house or my windows, I'd give them a good seeing to. But I know if I did that, I'd be watching my back, so what can you do.....
Vigilante groups in disguise? Fight fire with fire?
I sometimes think an unmerciful hiding from "frightened residents" would make them cop on pretty quickly....:mad:

RINO87

theres a fairly though vigilante style group in mayorstone, and they seem to be doing a good job!

RonMexico

So has the place quietened down as a result?

RINO87

yeah, very little anti-social behaviour going on there, i think.

Those guys scared the **** out of us. The day after a wild party four burly lads barged in the front door with nightsticks and told us exactly what would happen if it ever got that loud again!!



By the way, just heard on the news that a body is after being discovered in carew park, near krups.

clairesheara

I know it might sounds strange but one of the local councils here (sydney) had trouble with 200-300 hoons gathering each night, so along with lighting (which helps discourage activity that they don't want seen) the council played Barry Manilow music through loud speakers.

http://www.abc.net.au/sydney/stories/s1854460.htm

apparently it was a success...kids don't like daggy music apparently

Builderfromhell

To dael with it's drug problem Thailand had a 'shoot to kill' policy before the PM was deposed by a military coup. While this policy was in place an average of 25 people per dfay were killed. 2,500 were killed. The newly elected PM has decided to re-introduce this shoot to kill policy. Studies have shown that most people killed were innocent. These included lottery winners who suddenly had lots of money but kept the source of this wealth secret.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7260127.stm

BarryCreed

RINO87 wrote: »

theres a fairly though vigilante style group in mayorstone, and they seem to be doing a good job!

fair play

RonMexico

Pity it doesn't catch on in the other areas nearby.

RonMexico

Burp Bleugh wrote: »

http://www.limerickleader.ie/3419/Northside-residents-emergency-meeting-on.3708856.jp

Yeah we have been promised those cameras for months. We were told they would be up before Christmas, then January, then February, now its March. I will believe it when I see it. In the meantime they scum continue to vandalise the area nightly. Last night they were at it again.

um7y1h83ge06nx

Sorry to hear your plight RonMexico.

I was talking there recently with my brother about Limerick, we have been here now a few years between college and work.

It seems to us that generally the organised gangs have quietened down a little but that anti-social behaviour is increasing quite a lot.

A lot of these people have no respect whatsoever for anyone else, it's completely ridiculous. I reckon they despise the average person that might have a few luxuries and feel 'hard done by' as to why they don't have these things. They then delight in p*ssing off these average joes as much as possible.

Maybe if they got up off their arses and did a bit of work like the rest of us, they might be in a better position and wouldn't have as much time for causing trouble.

But these f**kwits have been brought up getting things too easy from the state. They don't feel any gratitude for anything that might be done for them as they feel they're automatically entitled to freebies.

If my brother or I acted like they do, our parents would hammer the sh*t out of us.

And I feel enraged that the average joe like me that has to get up in the morning and do a days works has to endure their bullsh*t angst and thuggery.

The state should stop acting like a bunch of tree hugging PC hippies and get tough with these people. I couldn't see the old lads like Michael Collins, Eamon De Valera, Eoin O' Duffy or Frank Aiken putting up with this.

Rant over. :mad:

RonMexico

Ian Large Statue wrote: »

Sorry to hear your plight RonMexico.

I was talking there recently with my brother about Limerick, we have been here now a few years between college and work.

It seems to us that generally the organised gangs have quietened down a little but that anti-social behaviour is increasing quite a lot.

A lot of these people have no respect whatsoever for anyone else, it's completely ridiculous. I reckon they despise the average person that might have a few luxuries and feel 'hard done by' as to why they don't have these things. They then delight in p*ssing off these average joes as much as possible.

Maybe if they got up off their arses and did a bit of work like the rest of us, they might be in a better position and wouldn't have as much time for causing trouble.

But these f**kwits have been brought up getting things too easy from the state. They don't feel any gratitude for anything that might be done for them as they feel they're automatically entitled to freebies.

If my brother or I acted like they do, our parents would hammer the sh*t out of us.

And I feel enraged that the average joe like me that has to get up in the morning and do a days works has to endure their bullsh*t angst and thuggery.

The state should stop acting like a bunch of tree hugging PC hippies and get tough with these people. I couldn't see the old lads like Michael Collins, Eamon De Valera, Eoin O' Duffy or Frank Aiken putting up with this.

Rant over. :mad:

Yeah I agree with you there. I am so sick of this crap. It has gotten so bad it is even affecting my parents health. I really don't know what to do but I feel completely powerless. Certain local politicians are a waste of space, they let it in one ear and out the other. However I am getting more and more interested in joining a political party in an effort to try and do something positive. Too many people just sit on their arse and complain. The only political party that has attempted to do anything on our behalf is Sinn Fein. Has anyone here joined a political party? I have looked at Sinn Feins website and I agree with a lot of their policies on local community issues. Not sure whether to join or not though. I'm in my mid twenties and have voted Fianna Fail before. I gave my last vote to Sinn Fein because of their stance on community issues, things that affect me and my family. Fianna Fail haven't helped us one bit and we did go to them. Labour/FG/PDs/Green Party do not interest me. Where can I learn more about joining a political party?

The_Dave

A nice point Ron, but I could never vote sinner after Jerry McCabe

RonMexico

The_Dave wrote: »

A nice point Ron, but I could never vote sinner after Jerry McCabe

Yeah I know what you mean. I do have reservations about them but doing something is better than doing nothing when it comes to community issues. I often see his wife around town and I do feel sorry for her and I do not agree with Sinn Feins stance on the issue. I wouldn't be the type that blindly agree's with the party line.

Sometimes when I look at this country I think of just leaving altogether. It is not the kind of place I want to raise a family. I do not think that things are going to get better unless there is a radical change of the entire criminal justice system. The judges, the courts, the prisons, the law, the gardai - all need a major major overhaul.

Life should mean life until you die.

Our police force is a third rate keystone cop mockery.

Our judges think they are not accountable to anybody. They are out of touch with society. They are not doing their job.

The court process is painfully and ridiculously slow.

We need more prisons that are maximum security - U.S. style. No more of these hotels that we call prisons. Hard labour needs to be brought in. Drugs need to be stamped out in prisons and inmates should have to talk to family through a screen.

More laws that have to be enforced especially those that cover under 18's.

There should be more institutions to deal with juvenile offenders.

I could go on and on. There needs to be a major crackdown across the board and two fingers to the do-gooders.

Enough is enough.