What Should the Government Do?

NonDrinkersClub

Hey All

Just wondering if anyone has any opinions on the proposed Over 21s legislation for off-licenses?

Personally, I think it's a good idea if it cuts down on the number of young people who damage themselves with excessive amounts of alcohol. It won't stop them but it makes it that little bit harder for some 14 year old with bum-fluff and a fake ID to buy cans for a gang of 12 year olds!

It isn't just the under 21s who are binge-drinking. I would say the age range is between 17 - 45. Changing the age-limit to over 21s is fair enough, but if you take something away from people, you should replace it with something else. Giving is a positive thing and people will most likely welcome this kind of change whatever age they may be.

Here are some ideas that the Goverment could act on:

1. Create more late opening cafes & non drinking venues - people need an alternative to over-priced pubs & drinking at home after stocking up at the off-license. There are almost no late-opening, non-drinking venues in Dublin city, and I'm sure there are very few country-wide.

2. Why does a small soft drink usually cost more than a pint even though alcohol is taxed so heavily? Most Irish people have lots more cash to spend these days but we still have that built-in instinct that makes us feel like we should try to get more for our money. There's more in a pint, it'll last longer, it'll make you feel merry and so we think it's better value. I think if soft drinks were a lot cheaper than pints (as they are in other EU countries), it would be a great step forward for us.

3. Why is tap water such poor quality in most venues? Why does a bottle of water that costs less than 20c in other EU countries cost over 1euro in Ireland? This is ridiculous and yet, we accept it because there are no alternatives. Why not introduce legislation whereby all venues are required to install water filters or sell bottled water at a reduced price?

I would love to hear other peoples opinions on the subject! Feel free to add to my list of things that could be changed by our Government to facilitate non drinkers & to discourage 'binge-drinking' in a positive way.

LaVidaLoca

There are several things that could be done. The most important is to change the very deep relationship that alcohol has with Irish culture. That could take decades.

But, that said:

(1) Give us other things to do. It sadly the case that there is little else to do but drinking in a lot of places in Ireland. We need more youth centres and (massively importantly) swimming pools/saunas in this country. Ireland is a gloomy wet place most of the time, people need something to relax them physically - if this was Brazil you'd go and sit in the sun to get that feeling. Here you need a swimming pool or a visit to the gym to feel that way. In many places in Ireland you have to pay riduculous money for membership to a snooty gym to get that. It should be free.

(2) Other ways to socialise that dont involve alcohol. We need late night cafes with a relaxed atmosphere in them. A place with cushions on the floor where you could go out and hang out and maybe meet some strangers. Quiet music, good conversation, cheap eats.

(3) All alcohol advertising/sponsorship should be banned outright, in the same way as with cigarettes.

(4) Could think about legalising marijuana as a healthier/safer, less antisocial alternative..

(5) Order the vintners to lower the price of soft drinks immediately (there is no tax on non-alcoholic drinks, so they shouldnt cost that much) or face prosecution.

(6) Deal with the legacy of centuries of history that have led Irish people to have such low self-esteem that makes them believe they need to get mashed to have a good time. Now this is the hard one. You dont undo 400 years of British colonialism and 1500 years of Catholicism overnight. I think the influx of people from more mentally healthy cultures than our own is already doing us good in this regard - I mean an Irish guy with a Spanish girlfriend is hardly likely to drink as much as he would normally. She'll be disgusted with him if he drinks more than 2 pints, and chances are they'll want go home early and spend the evening having sex instead anyway!

gillyfromlyre

I'm not saying your wrong lavidaloca, Ireland has a serious drinking problem, but my friend is going out with a spaniard with a serious drink problem, the hubby thinks hes great but I'm quite appalled at some of his antics. Juan (not his real name) is 40 and goes out every night of the week, and 3 times in the last month he has rang our doorbell after 12am during weeknights to see if the hubby "was feeling like some of the guinness". He got pumped out last tuesday after getting alcohol poisoning. He says "de irish is the best country", well for him it is certainly.

Bottle_of_Smoke

NonDrinkersClub wrote: »

Hey All

Just wondering if anyone has any opinions on the proposed Over 21s legislation for off-licenses?

Personally, I think it's a good idea if it cuts down on the number of young people who damage themselves with excessive amounts of alcohol. It won't stop them but it makes it that little bit harder for some 14 year old with bum-fluff and a fake ID to buy cans for a gang of 12 year olds!

Don't think it's fair on 18-20 year olds, would of pissed me off no end when I was that age. If everywhere went 21s we'd just end up with people drinking at home or in parks.

1. Create more late opening cafes & non drinking venues - people need an alternative to over-priced pubs & drinking at home after stocking up at the off-license. There are almost no late-opening, non-drinking venues in Dublin city, and I'm sure there are very few country-wide.

What do you mean by create? I don't think they'd be viable. You can't afford rental in Dublin without decent turnover. Food serving cafes that could also serve alcohol might be a better idea.

2. Why does a small soft drink usually cost more than a pint even though alcohol is taxed so heavily? Most Irish people have lots more cash to spend these days but we still have that built-in instinct that makes us feel like we should try to get more for our money. There's more in a pint, it'll last longer, it'll make you feel merry and so we think it's better value. I think if soft drinks were a lot cheaper than pints (as they are in other EU countries), it would be a great step forward for us.

Yes this is ridiculous. Completely insane. Publicans don't like the idea of non-drinkers, if they start spreading their evil ways people might start thinking they don't have to drink. If everyone was drink soft drinks they'd be doing it slower & spending less. You've hit the nail on the head with the value point.
In Ibiza you'll pay around ten euro for a bottle of water so people on pills spend as much as they would if they were just drinking. I'd love to see the government pass legislation that insists venues sell a required amount of soft drinks that cost less than €3 & have a min volume of 500mil. Cordials wouldn't count!

3. Why is tap water such poor quality in most venues? Why does a bottle of water that costs less than 20c in other EU countries cost over 1euro in Ireland? This is ridiculous and yet, we accept it because there are no alternatives. Why not introduce legislation whereby all venues are required to install water filters or sell bottled water at a reduced price?

I haven't noticed this to be honest. Not much of a water fan in pubs anyway I'd love if they started selling innocent smoothies in bars.

LaVidaLoca wrote:

(1) Give us other things to do. It sadly the case that there is little else to do but drinking in a lot of places in Ireland. We need more youth centres and (massively importantly) swimming pools/saunas in this country. Ireland is a gloomy wet place most of the time, people need something to relax them physically - if this was Brazil you'd go and sit in the sun to get that feeling. Here you need a swimming pool or a visit to the gym to feel that way. In many places in Ireland you have to pay riduculous money for membership to a snooty gym to get that. It should be free.

Don't think this would work. Majority of people wouldn't be bothered & would still have the same friday/saturday night habits even if they were. I'd like to see gym fees become tax-deductable though.

Other ways to socialise that dont involve alcohol. We need late night cafes with a relaxed atmosphere in them. A place with cushions on the floor where you could go out and hang out and maybe meet some strangers. Quiet music, good conversation, cheap eats.

Just won't be viable. People are used to alcohol to feel comfortable when meeting people. I say have places like this where the main focus is the food but allow alcohol be sold also. When people aren't under pressure to drink they might start drinking less.

(3) All alcohol advertising/sponsorship should be banned outright, in the same way as with cigarettes.

Agree completely. Might take away some of the drinking culture associations & possibly people would start drinking at a later age. Also might mean a better standard of alcoholic drinks as budweiser can't compensate for lack of taste with huge advertising campaigns.

(4) Could think about legalising marijuana as a healthier/safer, less antisocial alternative..

Haven't made my mind up on this one. I'm giving the stuff a break & would be quite difficult if I could walk down the road & pick up a nice bag of stuff. Much easier to turn down horrible soapbar. I think we need to get rid of our culture of excess before considering it. though it probably would cut down on street violence. Smoking ban would kinda ruin it too.

(5) Order the vintners to lower the price of soft drinks immediately (there is no tax on non-alcoholic drinks, so they shouldnt cost that much) or face prosecution.

Thumbs up here.

(6) Deal with the legacy of centuries of history that have led Irish people to have such low self-esteem that makes them believe they need to get mashed to have a good time. Now this is the hard one. You dont undo 400 years of British colonialism and 1500 years of Catholicism overnight.

Don't really buy this. There's drinking problems all over the UK too. Have only been on the planet 22 years. Can't really say 400 years of British colonialism affected me in any way.

Anyway my main thing is I'd like to see food cafes where alcohol isn't the main focus. Porterhouse is a pretty good start. Damn good pizza. People should try & have family/social events without alcohol. Very difficult admittedly.

Nicer & less stingy portions of non-alcholic drinks in pubs. Pubs getting grants if they agree to have a maximum level on the speakers!

larryone

I have always thought that it should be put in legislation that non-alcoholic drinks should have a lower price per volume than alcoholic drinks. A pint of rock shandy is always at a rediculous price, compared to beer. This may help to cut down on drink driving a bit, if being the designated driver didn't hit your wallet as hard.

BoS, haven't seen you in ages, how are things?

Pye

LaVidaLoca wrote: »

Deal with the legacy of centuries of history that have led Irish people to have such low self-esteem that makes them believe they need to get mashed to have a good time. Now this is the hard one. You dont undo 400 years of British colonialism and 1500 years of Catholicism overnight.

I can't see where this comes in at all. Britain has some of the worst drink problems in Europe. Binge drinking is as rife there as it is here. What's their excuse? War in Iraq?

We don't need excuses. We have a culture where binge drinking is acceptable. People young and old have a tendency to think along the lines of "If you can still stand up you're not having fun, drink more". We somehow need to change this mentality so people understand that they can just have a few and still have a good night.

I agree that places where drink is not the only focus on a Saturday night would be a start. When I was younger living in England I'd go down to the arcade to play games with friends. The prices there gradually got higher and higher making clubs/pubs the cheaper alternative for me. There still are good places like this though with pool tables, arcade games for two or more players, table hockey and bowling alleys. If these were available and affordable, I'd definitely be up for spending a Saturday night there as I'm sure others would too. Late cafés are a good idea. There were one or two in Manchester including a Jazz bar that serves food and coffee late. Way expensive though and they still had alcohol although many people there didn't drink.

Bottle of Smoke: I'm with you on the innocent smoothies! =D

LaVidaLoca

Was simply trying to find some reason why people in Ireland drink as much as they do.

I agree the English drink problem is as bad, if not worse than ours.

NonDrinkersClub

I don't know about the rest of you, but the recent drinking campaign the Government have got running is ridiculous. All of these people scrubbin puke off the side of their shops and nurses lookin sad in A&Es saying 'I've had enough'. It's so negative and it's not addressing the real issue...what is there to do instead of drinking to have fun?

If the ads were positive, something more along the lines of 'there is more to life' and showed people having fun in a non-drinking atmosphere it would be far more beneficial. I reckon a lot of people would start thinking, hey, maybe it would be fun to go to the cinema tonight instead of going drinking, and cheaper too.

Don't even get me started on that stupid campaign where the girl pukes everywhere and makes a fool of herself and then the other one where the guy wets himself at a party. I think that only spurred people on to go out and get locked! It was also a conversation piece...which usually started as 'remember that time when...'?

Any opinions on this?

ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI

NonDrinkersClub wrote: »

Hey All

Just wondering if anyone has any opinions on the proposed Over 21s legislation for off-licenses?

Personally, I think it's a good idea if it cuts down on the number of young people who damage themselves with excessive amounts of alcohol. It won't stop them but it makes it that little bit harder for some 14 year old with bum-fluff and a fake ID to buy cans for a gang of 12 year olds!

It isn't just the under 21s who are binge-drinking. I would say the age range is between 17 - 45. Changing the age-limit to over 21s is fair enough, but if you take something away from people, you should replace it with something else. Giving is a positive thing and people will most likely welcome this kind of change whatever age they may be.

I think it's an absolutely ridiculous idea that limits the essential, universal and irrevocable rights and freedoms that consenting adults should have. You cannot remove the freedom of an enormous (or a miniscule) demographic to do something that does not harm anyone else because a small (or large) number are abusing this right and neglecting their responsibilities. Would you suggest removing the right to privacy because some people would use it to conceal crimes? Would you suggest banning cars because some people speed? It's pretty much accepted everywhere in the free and forward thinking parts of the world that someone over the age of 18 is a responsible adult and can make informed decisions about this kind of thing . As a responsible 20 year old I find it personally insulting that you would sit their in your armchair and suggest that I should not have the right to walk into an off license and buy whatever the hell I feel like. It genuinely makes me quiver with rage. People with views like this are downright menaces to a free and open society and are contributors to the general erosion of rights that we see going on all the time. It's a slippery slope. What's next? A CCTV camera on every street corner so the loving eye of Big Brother can watch our every step? Limiting the amount of alcohol that can be bought in a single purchase? 24 years too late but we're getting there.

unreggd

A Smoothie-club would be class


Another thing thats stupid is the way that most cinemas stop playin films at 9.30 or 10 pm on a fri and sat night

Ive seen some exceptions with showings as late as 11.45, but very few

If there were regular showings, til 12/12.30, that'd be a night out

I hate goin to the cinema in town and gettin out at like 11.45 when the clubs are only kickin off

we'll just hafta wait and see


A late night arcade with loads of cheap, up to date games, and pool tables, NO GAMBLIN/TEDDY MACHINES

Like Leisureplex, but not crap!

NonDrinkersClub

ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI wrote: »

I think it's an absolutely ridiculous idea that limits the essential, universal and irrevocable rights and freedoms that consenting adults should have. You cannot remove the freedom of an enormous (or a miniscule) demographic to do something that does not harm anyone else because a small (or large) number are abusing this right and neglecting their responsibilities. Would you suggest removing the right to privacy because some people would use it to conceal crimes? Would you suggest banning cars because some people speed? It's pretty much accepted everywhere in the free and forward thinking parts of the world that someone over the age of 18 is a responsible adult and can make informed decisions about this kind of thing . As a responsible 20 year old I find it personally insulting that you would sit their in your armchair and suggest that I should not have the right to walk into an off license and buy whatever the hell I feel like. It genuinely makes me quiver with rage. People with views like this are downright menaces to a free and open society and are contributors to the general erosion of rights that we see going on all the time. It's a slippery slope. What's next? A CCTV camera on every street corner so the loving eye of Big Brother can watch our every step? Limiting the amount of alcohol that can be bought in a single purchase? 24 years too late but we're getting there.

Haha! An armchair...yeah that's me alright! I'm only 25 ya know. I'm not trying to start arguments and I'm sorry if I have offended you. The reason I think that younger people shouldn't be served in off-licences is simply that they are not fully developed. Alcohol damages your brain and body and can damage your life if you don't learn how to drink responsibly. Maybe you're the exception, but many 18 - 21 year olds are massively irresponsible drinkers and a quiet night having a few drinks would be quite a rare event. For example - how many drink-drivers are under 21?

I just want the Government to recognise that young people want something fun to do and not everyone wants to go out and get locked. If they up the age in off-licences, they'll have more pressure from young people to start funding late-opening cafes and cinemas and sports facilities. It's about changing the Irish drinking mentality. It worked in the US didn't it? Over 21s not just in off-licences, but everywhere. They don't have the binge-drinking problems we have here.

Oh, and there already is a CCTV camera on every street already (I live with Gardai and they say it's true). Can't you see that we aren't a free society and we never have been? Limits and rules are put there to protect yourself and others around you. I'm sure the over 21s law won't affect you if it comes in because someone will be able to buy it for you. It's the little 18year old skang buying vodka for a bunch of 14 year old girls who'll find it harder. Don't you think that's fair enough?

LaVidaLoca

By focusing on all the damage alcohol does to 'good hard-working people', the ad totally flies in the face of alcoholic psyhnology.

Drinkers usually celebrate how far outside civilised, decent behaviour they get when they're drunk. Thats part of the fun : "He he, guys remember that time we got ****ed up and stole those traffic cones!", "He he, remember that time I was so twisted I couldnt get my keys in the front door!"

What the ads should focus on is how sad and crap it is for this rather sordid and dirty little chemical to be our national standard of having a good time. Focus on what people from more socially advanced cultures think of us: Interview some good-looking young foreign people. You wont have to go far to find some that think we're a pack of saddoes!

Put that on T.V. and you'd create a national scandal: But you'd also make drink seem kinda crappy and ****: Instead of the current campaign that makes it still seem rebellious and edgy, which is part of the psychology.

NonDrinkersClub

LaVidaLoca wrote: »

By focusing on all the damage alcohol does to 'good hard-working people', the ad totally flies in the face of alcoholic psyhnology.

Drinkers usually celebrate how far outside civilised, decent behaviour they get when they're drunk. Thats part of the fun : "He he, guys remember that time we got ****ed up and stole those traffic cones!", "He he, remember that time I was so twisted I couldnt get my keys in the front door!"

What the ads should focus on is how sad and crap it is for this rather sordid and dirty little chemical to be our national standard of having a good time. Focus on what people from more socially advanced cultures think of us: Interview some good-looking young foreign people. You wont have to go far to find some that think we're a pack of saddoes!

Put that on T.V. and you'd create a national scandal: But you'd also make drink seem kinda crappy and ****: Instead of the current campaign that makes it still seem rebellious and edgy, which is part of the psychology.

I dunno if you remember the ad campaign they had before the 'Ive had enough'. Those ads were the ones where the young dorky-lookin' people went out and got locked and then the next day they realised what a fool they'd made of themselves.

There was one where the girl puked but apart from that, I thought it looked like she'd had a pretty good night. The next day in school she was giggled at by a bunch of girls. In real life, of course, she would have been applauded...again the Irish mentality.

Then there was one where a guy fell asleep at what looked like a tame enough house party and when he woke up, he realised he'd wet himself. Embarrasing...yes...but does it happen to people on a regular basis at house parties?...I would say definitely 'no'.

I'm not even a drinker but the kids were so lame in those ads even I wanted to smack some sense into them. Whoever made those ads has no idea what it's like to be young.

I still don't think any drink ad campaign should have negativity of any kind in it, even if it's other nationalities lookin' down at the Irish drinkers. That could spark all kinds of racism. A simple 'there's more to life' message would be good enough.

LaVidaLoca

if a "theres more to life campaign' would do any good. But I'd say it would be seen as kind of prissy, like the "just say no" campaign was in the 80's.

I can actually picture drunks using it as an Ironic catchphrase already.

I wasnt entirely serious about the interviewing foreign people thing. Obviously that would probably cause a racist bacclash. But there is something in the way the mainstream Irish discourse privileges drink above almost all other forms of pleasure, that is unique to our culture. Drink is not just seen as one among many things that we do. It is seen as an inherent part of being Irish. To have drink in your veins is almost as important as having blood in them.

We need to change this psychology to the more mature one that other countries have: Drink is there, it can be fun, it's a part of life, but it's not the friggin' be all and end all of everything.

NonDrinkersClub

I dunno, I couldn't see people clinking glasses saying 'cheers - there's more to life!'. How depressing would that be?...it's like instantly admitting you're wasting yours. 'Don't see a great night wasted' was an ok slogan but again it's focusing on the negative. The 'Just say No' ad was a US one I thought relating to drugs?

zAbbo

I think Just Say No was a uk campaign from the 80's, didn't the Grange Hill kids promote it with a song.

Kinda ironic considering 'zammo turned into a raging coke monkey.

LaVidaLoca

I dunno, I couldn't see people clinking glasses saying 'cheers - there's more to life!'. How depressing would that be?...

I meant they would use it as an Ironic quote. People would get pissed up and fall over and make jokes, saying 'There's more to life!"

Maybe you're not familiar with alcoholic humour?

af_thefragile

I completely agree with the idea of Late Opening Cafe's and Non-Drinking venues.

Lately the only concept of having a fun night nowdays seems to go out to a club and get drunk. Which is most probably cuz there's nothing else to do in town late at night other than going to clubs. Almost everything else closes and the only place left to go is the night club.

If there were more non-drinking/cafe venues open during the night time, people would have other alternatives to have fun than going out to a night club.

I like it in the middle-eastern countries where restaurants are open all night long and many people's concept of socialising is to go out to a restaurant or some other leisure place open late night and have a good time there without getting drunk.

Something like that would be more healthy and safer.

dmigsy

I believe that there is more than enough legislation already. Simply funding the Gardai sufficiently to enforce the current legislation would have a much greater impact than any advertising campaign or only allowing over 21s to drink.