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So, after 30 years of armed insurgency...

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  • 17-01-2008 10:21am
    #1
    Tommy T
    Closed Accounts Posts: 274 ✭✭


    The Provisional Movement signed an agreement not only accepting but agreeing to administer British rule on the island of Ireland on Good friday 1998.

    Personally, as a Republican(Fianna Fail) myself, I was delighted to see that day come after so much bloodshed and mayhem for all concerned in the conflict.

    But my question is how do those who supported the Provisionals(SF/IRA) throughout the last 30 years reconcile their struggle to end foreign occupation and in the end signing an agreement copperfastening that same occupation...?
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    #2
    Hagar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,793 ✭✭✭✭Hagar


    I'd imagine the same way Fianna Fáil did.


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    #3
    Tommy T
    Closed Accounts Posts: 274 ✭✭Tommy T


    Hagar wrote: »
    I'd imagine the same way Fianna Fáil did.



    But Fianna Fail didn't exist at the time of the Treaty. It was founded in 1926...


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    #4
    Hagar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,793 ✭✭✭✭Hagar


    FF was formed in 1926 so although technically the party didn't exist the people who founded it and their ideals did.


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    #5
    Tommy T
    Closed Accounts Posts: 274 ✭✭Tommy T


    Hagar wrote: »
    FF was formed in 1926 so although technically the party didn't exist the people who founded it and their ideals did.


    True. In fact there was the minor matter of a Civil War if I'm not mistaken.

    However after the GFA the Armani clad Republicans were more than happy to take up their roles as servants on the Brisitsh establishment...


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    #6
    Hagar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,793 ✭✭✭✭Hagar


    Didn't FF win the '32 Election and work as "servants of the British Establishment"?


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    #7
    Tommy T
    Closed Accounts Posts: 274 ✭✭Tommy T


    Hagar wrote: »
    Didn't FF win the '32 Election and work as "servants of the British Establishment"?

    A decade after the Civil War, which was fought over the Treaty with the British, Fianna Fail did win an election.

    Its a bit of a difference to the GFA situation I think you will agree...


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    #8
    RedPlanet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭RedPlanet


    Actually it's worse isn't it?
    Fianna Fail members would sign an Oath of Alligence to the Queen of England.
    Sinn Fein doesn't do that up north.


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    #9
    Mick86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 982 ✭✭✭Mick86


    Tommy T wrote: »
    A decade after the Civil War, which was fought over the Treaty with the British, Fianna Fail did win an election.

    Its a bit of a difference to the GFA situation I think you will agree...

    Not really. De Valera (amongst others) started a Civil War over an Oath of Allegaiance that he later called an empty formula. Incidentally he took the oath himself in 1927. 4 years after his Civil War.


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    #10
    Tommy T
    Closed Accounts Posts: 274 ✭✭Tommy T


    Back to the GFA...


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    #11
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Not personally being an Irish Republican I can't speak personally, but I would imagine it is the best of a bad situation.

    Catholic imancipation appears to be pretty much done so the IRA's role of defending the Catholic community is no longer required. An armed struggle is never going to work with regards to ending British rule, so the only way Ireland will be united is through politics and diplomacy. Yesterday saw a DUP minister attend a GAA match, would this have happened if there was still bloodshed, I doubt it.

    Until there is peace, trust and understanding, there will never be a united Ireland. I presume the provisionals realise that and have adopted a new approach.

    The tactics have, I guess, changed, but the strategy is still the same.


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    #12
    conor2007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 636 ✭✭✭conor2007


    dev took the oath = only to dismantle the treaty

    ff - eammon o cuiv - basicially saying ireland would be better in the commwealth

    anyway - if the people of the north vote to join a united ireland - it happens


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    #13
    Tommy T
    Closed Accounts Posts: 274 ✭✭Tommy T


    Some interesting views there guys but I'm most interested in Provisional(SF/IRA) supporters' views.

    What was the violence all about if in the end their leaders agree to administer the foreign occupiers writ after fighting them for so long.

    It's hard not to view it as a sellout of their beliefs...


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    #14
    conor2007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 636 ✭✭✭conor2007


    well many believe they are sellouts

    logical people see that in 5-10 or however soon down the line - catholics will be a majority in the north

    therefore will vote for a united ireland


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    #15
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    Tommy T wrote: »
    Some interesting views there guys but I'm most interested in Provisional(SF/IRA) supporters' views.

    What was the violence all about if in the end their leaders agree to administer the foreign occupiers writ after fighting them for so long.

    It's hard not to view it as a sellout of their beliefs...

    I think you are discounting how bad things were, or would have continued to be, for catholics & nationalists had the provisionals not been active throughout the 70's/80's. The institutional discrimination was not being addressed - peaceful civil rights marches provoked a violent response where the loyalist siege mentality was 'if we give them an inch we are lost'. So against that backdrop there was more to it than their ultimate stated goal of an independent united Ireland. imo.


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    #16
    Tommy T
    Closed Accounts Posts: 274 ✭✭Tommy T


    Morlar wrote: »
    I think you are discounting how bad things were, or would have continued to be, for catholics & nationalists had the provisionals not been active throughout the 70's/80's. The institutional discrimination was not being addressed - peaceful civil rights marches provoked a violent response where the loyalist siege mentality was 'if we give them an inch we are lost'. So against that backdrop there was more to it than their ultimate stated goal of an independent united Ireland. imo.

    That begs the question how did the Birmingham, Guilford, Brighton, Manchester, Enniskillen and Canary Wharf bombs improve the lot of catholics nevermind protect them..?


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    #17
    Tommy T
    Closed Accounts Posts: 274 ✭✭Tommy T


    conor2007 wrote: »
    well many believe they are sellouts

    logical people see that in 5-10 or however soon down the line - catholics will be a majority in the north

    therefore will vote for a united ireland

    Thats ignoring the sizeable number of Catholics who'd rather stay in the Union...


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    #18
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    Tommy T wrote: »
    That begs the question how did the Birmingham, Guilford, Brighton, Manchester, Enniskillen and Canary Wharf bombs improve the lot of catholics nevermind protect them..?

    If I had said that the birmingham, guildford, manchester eniskillen bombs improved the lot of catholics in Ireland you may get a discussion going there. Seeing as though that is not what I said your on your own with that.


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    #19
    scruff321
    Registered Users Posts: 729 ✭✭✭scruff321


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Not personally being an Irish Republican I can't speak personally, but I would imagine it is the best of a bad situation.

    Catholic imancipation appears to be pretty much done so the IRA's role of defending the Catholic community is no longer required. An armed struggle is never going to work with regards to ending British rule, so the only way Ireland will be united is through politics and diplomacy. Yesterday saw a DUP minister attend a GAA match, would this have happened if there was still bloodshed, I doubt it.

    Until there is peace, trust and understanding, there will never be a united Ireland. I presume the provisionals realise that and have adopted a new approach.

    The tactics have, I guess, changed, but the strategy is still the same.

    i think you've hit the nail on the head,times have changed,peace and recognsialtion are a stronger means of obtaining a united ireland then violance, gerry adams would know that himself all too well,a violant struggle no longer would have any backing now,really hope some day we'll have a united ireland


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    #20
    conor2007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 636 ✭✭✭conor2007


    Tommy T wrote: »
    Thats ignoring the sizeable number of Catholics who'd rather stay in the Union...

    in a state that is economically worse of than the republic ?
    wher ethey are discriminated against ?

    yes , i forgot those numerous people


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    #21
    Tommy T
    Closed Accounts Posts: 274 ✭✭Tommy T


    Morlar wrote: »
    If I had said that the birmingham, guildford, manchester eniskillen bombs improved the lot of catholics in Ireland you may get a discussion going there. Seeing as though that is not what I said your on your own with that.


    So the bomb attacks I mentioned did nothing for the plight of catholics...


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    #22
    Tommy T
    Closed Accounts Posts: 274 ✭✭Tommy T


    conor2007 wrote: »
    in a state that is economically worse of than the republic ?
    wher ethey are discriminated against ?

    yes , i forgot those numerous people


    In what way are Catholics descriminated against...?


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    #23
    conor2007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 636 ✭✭✭conor2007


    you are showing a few bombings that happened after unprovoked attacks on peaceful marchers in their country which was invaded by foregin people

    so . . .

    and before you say it - no two wrongs do not make a right


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    #24
    conor2007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 636 ✭✭✭conor2007


    now?

    by the mere fact that they are in a foreign country despite being surrounded by the irish sea - being on the island of ireland and livin in whichever of the siz irish counties

    nevermind the numerous ways which led to the founding of the ira (in the context of the north and its current form)


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    #25
    Tommy T
    Closed Accounts Posts: 274 ✭✭Tommy T


    conor2007 wrote: »
    you are showing a few bombings that happened after unprovoked attacks on peaceful marchers in their country which was invaded by foregin people

    so . . .

    and before you say it - no two wrongs do not make a right

    So the Canary Wharf bomb was in retalliation for the Civil Rights marches in the late 60's/early 70's...? Kind of a delayed reaction I'd say...:D


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    #26
    conor2007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 636 ✭✭✭conor2007


    dissedents
    just by the by
    how many loyalists groups have disarmed??????????

    none


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    #27
    Tommy T
    Closed Accounts Posts: 274 ✭✭Tommy T


    conor2007 wrote: »
    now?

    by the mere fact that they are in a foreign country despite being surrounded by the irish sea - being on the island of ireland and livin in whichever of the siz irish counties

    nevermind the numerous ways which led to the founding of the ira (in the context of the north and its current form)


    I ask again. Examples of descrimination against Catholics today... Being administered by a democratic State(Uk) doen't come into that category...


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    #28
    Tommy T
    Closed Accounts Posts: 274 ✭✭Tommy T


    conor2007 wrote: »
    dissedents
    just by the by
    how many loyalists groups have disarmed??????????

    none


    Dissidents? The Canary Wharf attack was a Provo act...


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    #29
    conor2007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 636 ✭✭✭conor2007


    just look at the state of the norths economy
    ''raped and pillaged'' and ''left for dead'' after its use as shipbuilding burned out like the coal industry
    yes its democratic as in it votes - but it has done a lot of wrong

    no blacks/dogs/irish ?

    taig etc etc - paisley attacking the pope


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    #30
    conor2007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 636 ✭✭✭conor2007


    by who

    pira ?
    cira ?
    ira ?
    some randomers who got a bit hot headed ?

    as i said which is all going off topic - but anyway -

    have any loyalist group disbanded? - why not ? crime and attacking catholics like the sixties/seventies onwards (and by there mere presence and claim to the land)


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    #31
    FruitLover
    Registered Users Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭FruitLover


    Tommy T wrote: »
    But my question is how do those who supported the Provisionals(SF/IRA) throughout the last 30 years reconcile their struggle to end foreign occupation and in the end signing an agreement copperfastening that same occupation...?

    Jesus, are people still actually using the word 'occupation' in this context? :rolleyes:

    I wonder how many Northern Irish residents consider their country to be host to a 'foreign occupation'..


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