Anyone work for Eircom Phonewatch?

Ginger83

Hi, does anyone happen to work for Eircom phonewatch?

Last OCTOBER (2007) I purchased an Eircom Phonewatch alarm system with 3 years monitoring when an advertising rep called to my house promoting the company. I paid €1270 on the spot and was told I would get an installation date. I did and took the time off work, 2 hours after the guy was due to arrive I rang to be told he was not going to show and that I would receive another date. After waiting all through xmas and new year I rang again to be told they would get back to me with a date.
On Friday last week two men from Eircom knocked on my door to try to sell me the very same alarm system a second time that I had already bought and paid for but ran when I explained my story and asked questions. I have rang every day this week to be told the very same thing. Today I just about had enough of this circus act and cancelled it and was amazed by the 'dont give a ****' attitude by the ponzy git who answered my call.
What a disgrace!
But all is not lost, I booked a local company who have guaranteed full installation by the end of next week. I think I will leave my business in my local area from now on.

northdublin

all eircom phonewatch installation work is carried out by agents for the company. most of these agents are small hand picked companys who also do there own work under there own name.(list on the website). the eircom system in my opinion is a good one but if i were to get one i would go directly to one of the agents and not eircom itself for the simple reason that the agents do the work anyway and as part of the agency they have to hand over so many installs to phone watch inorder to keep getting work of them so you wont be left waiting.
there has allways been a backlog around xmas especially when the company they employ to do there selling targets an area.if you want anymore info or a recomendation pm me.:)

fishdog

the eircom system in my opinion is a good one

If you are suggesting that the wireless system is good, why???What would you say makes it good compared to a HKC, Aritech or Astec???

I can give you reasons why I think it is not.

For example, the standard method deployed fo installing the wiress system is not to have a real bellbox. This has serious security implications.

The other thing that does not occur to many people is that although a wireless system has the advantage that only a few cables are required there are serious draw back with any wireless system such as:

1) Each wireless sensor needs its own battery. These batteries are expensive and have a life. Once they run down the sensor can no longer communicate.

2) Wireless sensors are more expensive.

3) Much more technology goes into a wireless sensor, therefore there is more to go wrong with it.

4) They are more bulky.

5) Cummunication between the sensors and the panel can be hampered by interference. This may cause false alarms.

6) They are not as reliable as hardwired alarms.

Ask yourself this, are wireless alarms used in banks??

Keep away from wireless alarms if you possibly can!

Jnealon

This post is going slightly OT and seems to be a continuation of your rant in the electrical forum. While you make some good points I will add my 2c

fishdog wrote: »

If you are suggesting that the wireless system is good, why???What would you say makes it good compared to a HKC, Aritech or Astec???

I can give you reasons why I think it is not.

For example, the standard method deployed fo installing the wiress system is not to have a real bellbox. This has serious security implications.

The customer is given the option of a real or a decoy. May be this should be made a bit clearer to the cusomer from the start by phonewatch.

The other thing that does not occur to many people is that although a wireless system has the advantage that only a few cables are required there are serious draw back with any wireless system such as:

1) Each wireless sensor needs its own battery. These batteries are expensive and have a life. Once they run down the sensor can no longer communicate.

I disagree. Batteries are not expensive and this should not cause a problem provided a proper service contract is in place

2) Wireless sensors are more expensive.

I disagree. It works out around the same when you factor in the labor involved in running wires

3) Much more technology goes into a wireless sensor, therefore there is more to go wrong with it.

I disagree. One of the common causes of false alarms is bad wiring.

4) They are more bulky.

Shocks might be a bit bigger but that has never been an issue for me

5) Cummunication between the sensors and the panel can be hampered by interference. This may cause false alarms.

This can be true but if a proper site survey is carried out the necessary steps can be taken like additional antenna or repeaters

6) They are not as reliable as hardwired alarms.

I disagree and as I have installed both and find no difference

Ask yourself this, are wireless alarms used in banks??

Pointless comment. All banks are Grade three and higher.

Keep away from wireless alarms if you possibly can!

Saruman

Im getting a HKC system installed for half that price, including a text dialler to let me know if my alarm goes off. For the price of what you paid for eircom (who just call you and let you know your alarm is going off, or call the police for you) I could have the HKC alarm (same control box as phonewatch) text dialler and a full internet enabled CCTV system so... i get a text saying my alarm is going of, i log on and check my cameras and see its my bloody cat... i can ignore.. if i see theives i can call the police myself and tell them i have them on CCTV and give descriptions.. i can even give them access to the system so they could check themselves.

I do not have this yet, but i have ordered the alarm and im going to do the CCTV myself.

Jnealon

Saruman wrote: »

Im getting a HKC system installed for half that price, including a text dialler to let me know if my alarm goes off. For the price of what you paid for eircom (who just call you and let you know your alarm is going off, or call the police for you) I could have the HKC alarm (same control box as phonewatch) text dialler and a full internet enabled CCTV system so... i get a text saying my alarm is going of, i log on and check my cameras and see its my bloody cat... i can ignore.. if i see theives i can call the police myself and tell them i have them on CCTV and give descriptions.. i can even give them access to the system so they could check themselves.

I do not have this yet, but i have ordered the alarm and im going to do the CCTV myself.

What are type of system are you getting for this and is it wired

Saruman

House is pre-wired so its a wired system. Its going to be from Enfield alarms.. i need to get on to them, they cashed the deposit i sent to them the other week i guess waiting for alarm companies is the norm

northdublin

like all alarm systems, wirefree will suffer from poor installation. in relation to the installation the slightly larger sensors more than make up for the lack of cable and drilling which a lot of ppl do not want in a decorated/furnished house.the averge life of a battery depending on use is between 3-5 years and when the battery starts to fail the panel will alert the customer and if the customer fails to act on it it will send in a supervisory message to the main control.as far as reliabillity is concerned ive had a lot more failures on hkc id sensors then on any wire free inc pirs, contacts, smokeys and inertias.
also there are no cables to get damaged and the customer is given the option to install a sab or a decoy or both.the alarm systems that phonewatch install are not to be confused or even compared to the mickey mouse wirefree systems that you buy in b&q and such stores. ive installed hundreds of these systems and hkc and aritec and all have bad points and good points.

fishdog

The customer is given the option of a real or a decoy. May be this should be made a bit clearer to the cusomer from the start by phonewatch.

...and perhaps the serious security implications should be made very clear. If they were I know what customers would say.

Batteries are not expensive and this should not cause a problem provided a proper service contract is in place

Lithium-ion. Ring and get a price, you will be shocked. Service contract is expensive.

Wireless sensors are more expensive.

I disagree. It works out around the same when you factor in the labor involved in running wires

You can be correct here, however I am most new houses are pre-wired. If it were to work out the same on installation, the running costs for hardwired is much cheaper. I can buy a wired inertia sensor for €8. I dont think I would get a wirless for €50. Kids break stuff!

3) Much more technology goes into a wireless sensor, therefore there is more to go wrong with it.

I disagree. One of the common causes of false alarms is bad wiring.

Well sorry, its a fact. For example, a wired inertia sensor is like a resistor, bang it and crystals inside it move thus changing it resistance. Very simple and basic, not alot to go wrong.

A wireless sensor however has to have a built in transmitter and reciever. They have to have asystem that ensures that the signals are hard to block intentionly. Did you ever open one up??? There is a PCB in there and alot of components. There is alot of technology in there.

A common cause of false alarms is not bad wiring. In fact it would be quite rare. I came across it once, and it was one cable in an old house between tow windows. The resistance of the cable was "floating". I think there was a join where I could not see it that was getting heated and then cooled. This is anything but normal. In a new house it would be unheard of.

5) Cummunication between the sensors and the panel can be hampered by interference. This may cause false alarms.

This can be true but if a proper site survey is carried out the necessary steps can be taken like additional antenna or repeaters

Why bother with more money and expense. More stuff to go wrong!

Ask yourself this, are wireless alarms used in banks??

Pointless comment. All banks are Grade three and higher.

Why do banks not use them? Can wireless not be grade 3??

I agree with you, wireless has one big advantage, very few wires needed. Sometimes you have no choice.
However Eircom PhoneWatch for example will never use a wireless system in a place that is prewired, now why is that??? If they can use a HKC the will. I think that says it all.

10-10-20

My $.02...

Wireless typically uses encryption of the signal, with an address and data segment to prevent the local kids etc from setting off false alarms with toys... You may get interference on the same channel, but you won't get false alarms unless somebody has a similar alarm configured incorrectly (rare). If interference swamps an initial signal, the sensors will usually still resend the signal every 15 seconds or so, and it will get through to the receiver. You can purchase Keyloq encryption chips for a euro each for use in this setup.

I have an FM Electronics panel installed and I find it good. Sensors are slightly bigger than the usual designs, but are effective. They take standard AA batteries and notify me of low power roughly yearly on frequently used sensors (hall door/hall) or 3 years out of under-used sensors.

Wireless would be too complex to design for banks etc, you'd need transmit and receive on each sensor (to confirm the receipt of alarm actions by the panel) as opposed to just transmit, and you'd also need a method of transmitting over multiple frequencies (spread spectrum) to prevent the crims from transmitting over one frequency to block the sensor communications. So, I'd guess that you would find it more cost effective to use a wired system.

BTW, I do some construction of basic FM wireless control systems and I have no concerns over using it for security.

Saruman

Have just ordered This CCTV System to complement my alarm when it goes in. Came to €603 after conversion.

So when my HKC goes in i will be pretty happy to leave the house empty.

fishdog

have an FM Electronics panel installed and I find it good. Sensors are slightly bigger than the usual designs, but are effective. They take standard AA batteries and notify me of low power roughly yearly on frequently used sensors (hall door/hall) or 3 years out of under-used sensors.

I was talking about the Eircom alarm, they claimed to me that their more expensive lithium-ion batteries would last over 5 years. AA batteries are alot cheaper, but there seems to be a trade off: 1 years battery life for some sensors. Do you need engineer code to change these batteries?

I would expect 5 years battery life for a hardwired system. I would expect to pay no more than €12 for this battery (located in the alarm panel). The wireless systems would also require this battery.

Wireless typically uses encryption of the signal, with an address and data segment to prevent the local kids etc from setting off false alarms with toys... You may get interference on the same channel, but you won't get false alarms unless somebody has a similar alarm configured incorrectly (rare). If interference swamps an initial signal, the sensors will usually still resend the signal every 15 seconds or so, and it will get through to the receiver.

That all sounds correct to me. Lets be honest, this is much more complex than a hard wired sensor.

BTW, I do some construction of basic FM wireless control systems and I have no concerns over using it for security.

I agree they can be secure, what is less secure is not having a working bellbox.

As I have pointed out, Eircom PhoneWatch (they have more wireless systems than anyone else in Ireland) will not install a wireless system if cables are installed. That says it all.

northdublin

As I have pointed out, Eircom PhoneWatch (they have more wireless systems than anyone else in Ireland) will not install a wireless system if cables are installed. That says it all.

they will gladly install a wirefree system in any house that is prewired but what would the point be if the cables are in place. in most cases a pre-wired house is not fully prewired,ie no pir or echo cables and if the house is wired for astec and its not viable to install a hkc or an aritec they will put in a wire free. ive put many wirefree systems into prewired houses usually the reason being the customers choice not to run additional cables that the sparks was too lazy to run. the panels can take up to 96 zones and rkps and other devices can be hardwired in if the cables are in place.
some of phonewatches policys are questionable and my views on the ppl running the show up in sandyford are not for here but ied easilly put there concord system up against any wired system of equal proportion.

the cost of the batteries is irrellivent compared to the aesthetics and cost of replacing a damaged wire. if a wirefree sensor is faulty its the same as a wired sensor, if the head is not the fault the unit must be changed which is more exspensive but atleast its not a cable you cant get to without disruption to the interior of a house.
these systems are not complex to install or mantain and anyone who thinks they are should not be in that line of work.

the op was in relation to the failings company and not the product.

Ginger83

Funny enough, my partner and I have been bombarded with phone calls since I cancelled my eircom phonewatch alarm system.
Seems to be they only get off their arse when they lose a customer

northdublin

in most cases they do everything over the phone which usually leads to the engineer on the day telling you you need x ammount of senors extra or the other way around.the person who called to your house probably doesnt work directly for them. its imposible to spec a house over the phone propperly but there getting away with it. there probably not worried about loosing you as a customer but worried about how many ppl you will tell about your bad experience.

Ginger83

I've told absolutely everybody I've met since, even my brother who just finished building a 2,600 sq ft place of his own and is looking for an alarm. You can bet your cash he wont touch them. Some fitter guy rang me to confirm my cancellation and said it was due to be installed this coming tuesday (how convenient), stick it I said.

northdublin

yep theres nothin worse than takin a day off and the person not turning up. large companys like that think nothing of putting jobs forward and not considering the fact that you might have wasted a days holiday or canceled something important.

Ginger83

yea that and the fact 3.5 mths passed before they even considered installing it.their loss

fishdog

in most cases a pre-wired house is not fully prewired

You are correct sometimes this is the case, but for me, not that often. Generally I would have wired the house.

the panels can take up to 96 zones

It can be handy to have lots of zones, but most houses would not need anything close to that. I would not like to think of the price of replacing 96 batteries or more to the point, paying for all the call outs by the alarm installer!!

the cost of the batteries is irrellivent compared to the aesthetics and cost of replacing a damaged wire

If a hardwired system is installed properly there is no reason for a cable to just become damaged in the normal course of events. Perhaps a nail to hang a picture may hit a cable, but you will know where the damage is (tamper circuit). This danger of cables being damaged would apply to all cables for lights, sockets, phones etc.

I have found that many modern houses have a 2" gap between the warm board and wall that is great for fishing cables. "One time filler" is great too!

these systems are not complex to install or mantain and anyone who thinks they are should not be in that line of work.

I never said they were complex to install or mantain. I said they were complex as in there is alot that can go wrong with them. Just like a mobile phone, easy to use etc, but a complex bit of kit that will fail or crash from time to time.

I am not in the PSA (I do not agree with it at all), so I do not do much in that line of work anymore. I only install the odd alarm now under circumstances that I would not need to be in the PSA for.

the op was in relation to the failings company and not the product.

True, sorry for going off topic. Lets agree to disagree!

northdublin

You are correct sometimes this is the case, but for me, not that often. Generally I would have wired the house

it s a godsend when you arrive to pre-wired and its all in the right place but in my experience this was once in a blue moon.i think builders just tell sparks to wire the house as if a basic alarm was being put in and up untill i hung up my snips for good i was still pulling cables back out of hotpresses even though its been anginst regs for ages.

I have found that many modern houses have a 2" gap between the warm board and wall that is great for fishing cables. "One time filler" is great too!

yep this method of concealing cables has all types of uses and these days ppl will pay mad money to have there cables to there big flat screen tvs hidden;) but the best thing to have in the van was a tube of caulk for concealing the cables in corners and along skirtings.......goin off topic again:rolleyes:

hitbit

Recently had 2 PhoneWatch agents, Sharon & Sean call to the house. Both were warm, friendly very knowledgeable and explained their wireless / wired systems in detail answering all questions posed. They provided a full breakdown of installation,annual monitoring/maintenance & extra item costs along with cash and credit price options. They also provided a detailed price list for any future "additions" I might like to add to the system, this included battery cost. They clearly explained the difference between dummy and active external alarm boxes and the costs involved. End result we placed an order and hope to have same installed shortly. I will have to wait and see if all goes to plan and system is as effective as claimed by Eircom PhoneWatch. Hopefully others will be as good as this young chap and girl. I replied here because many posts would suggest that PhoneWatch do not provide enough and or all info neccessary. This was not my experience.

hitbit

northdublin

i can find little fault with the system and you should have many years hassle free use of it. did they explain that they usually fit only inertia sensors to the windows which detect vibration but do not detect weather the window is open or not. the vibration units which have reads built into them can protect a single opening per unit but in my experience are rarely used as both an inertia and opening sensor unless used on a door. eventhough its classed as wire free the engineer will still need to get power and a connection to the phoneline in the form of cables. the power connection will be either from the fuseboard or a socket and will be wired trough a spur(5amp) as per regulation. the phoneline has to go to the master point either directly or via the existing phone cables. this is for telephone priority and if you have broadband they will fit a dsl splitter either in the panel or at your master phone point. if you've any questions about the system you didnt think to ask ask away and we'll help as best we can.

hitbit

Hi All
I am not going to bother with the window sensors, just door sensors and beams.
Think vibration systems suck. Motorcycles, Buses and Fire Engines set other company's systems off on my road on a regular basis. Well located beams covering all doors and windows will work for me.

hitbit

Jnealon

hitbit wrote: »

Hi All
I am not going to bother with the window sensors, just door sensors and beams.
Think vibration systems suck. Motorcycles, Buses and Fire Engines set other company's systems off on my road on a regular basis. Well located beams covering all doors and windows will work for me.

hitbit

Just a couple of points to note.
With a PIR system the intruder will have to be inside before the alarm activates and secondly you cant walk around the whole house with the alarm on. This can be an issue if there is someone home alone.
If this does not bother you then go for the PIR system

fishdog

I replied here because many posts would suggest that PhoneWatch do not provide enough and or all info neccessary. This was not my experience.

Fair enough, but just for the hell of it aask these helpful sales people the following:

1) What are the consequences of the phone line being cut?

2) What have you done to make it difficult for the phone line to be cut?

3) What are the consequences if an intruder were to destroy the alartm panel before it dialls out?

4) Why is the panel so easy for an intruder to find?

5) List the advantages of having your alarm connected to a monitoring station v dialling you and other keyholders directly.

6) If you have a "dummy external alarm box" and the alarm activates is it not true that no one outside the house will hear your alarm if you have double glazing?

Hi All
I am not going to bother with the window sensors, just door sensors and beams.

Big mistake. This means that an intruder will only set off the alarm when he is already in! If he is in he may as well steal stuff before he goes!!

Think vibration systems suck.

Based on what?? They work 100% when they are correctly installed.

Motorcycles, Buses and Fire Engines set other company's systems off on my road on a regular basis.

Then they are either badly installed or the program needs to be adjusted or they are simply faulty.

northdublin

the vibration units have a thing called pulse count which is fully adjustable and basically allows the sensors to monitor and count the number of vibrations before activating. then there is gross which detects a major vibration. so you shouldnt have to worry about false alarms.
any monitored system is only as good as the integrity of the phonline. if your phoneline is at the side of the house in a white jucntion box you can get an aluminium plate that screws over it........this will only slow them down but worth the few quid.

hitbit

Hi All,
Good points. Thank you.
My phone line is overhead and would require climbing up either the front of the house or a telegraph pole outside. Also I have two lines into the house. Re the
vibration sensors I trust I could add these in the future though I still think they are the cause of most nuisance alarms. True with a PIR system a burglar would have to enter the house to activate the system but vib sensors can be bypassed by using a glass cutter ???. I accept that alarms monitored or otherwise are a deterrent and not the ultimate guaranteed solution if one exists.
I also intend to install security cameras with recording. Realistically I can only make a reasonable effort to protect my home and family and so will proceed as above. There is a danger is discouraging people from taking precautions ie "sure theres no use having an alarm I read that they don't work". Some protection is better that no protection.
Anyone know if a 3 pin socket is ok for the power supply needed.

hitbit

fishdog

My phone line is overhead

That is good. So why not put the alarm panel some where upstairs/in the attic/hard to find place to make the alarm system much more secure?? You can have a wireless keypad at front door. This would make it easier to have a real bellbox.

Also I have two lines into the house

No advantage.

vibration sensors I trust I could add these in the future though I still think they are the cause of most nuisance alarms.

Not if installed and set up correctly. They are very inportant. Get a second opinion. Every type of sensor including PIRs can give a nuisance alarm if not installed properly.

vib sensors can be bypassed by using a glass cutter ???.

Not a chance.

guaranteed solution if one exists.

There are none. My point is that getting the alarm to ring you directly is just as secure as getting it to ring a monitoring station. You are simply wasting money paying the monitoring station. Reading the garda policy document on this illustrates that fact clearly.

I have argued about this sevral times on boards. I have yet to recieve an advantage of being connected to a monitoring station over having the alarm ring you directly.

Some protection is better that no protection.

Dont get me wrong, I think alarms are very inportant. I am just trying to get you to make the correct decisions when buying one. You are 100% correct installing an alarm, I just think that if you are going to do it, do it right!

JimG

Living in the country, I occasionally find that birds crash into my windows (blackbirds and smaller). A blackbird can make a substantial bang. Would this set off an alarm system (window sensors)?

MAK

fishdog wrote: »

Fair enough, but just for the hell of it aask these helpful sales people the following:
1) What are the consequences of the phone line being cut?

I asked this question of the guy selling Eircom Phonewatch systems and was told that a line break would activate the same sequence of events as an alarm event, i.e. homeowner, keyholders, etc would be contacted (I realise in retrospect that perhaps I shouldn't believe all that sales people say - and that I should have done more research.)

I duly ordered system which was installed today. At the end of the installation, the installer mentioned the vulnerability of the phone line being cut and this was a clear and present risk as our external phone access point is a white box at gable end of house. I reckon any potential intruder should know this. I was enraged to hear this and was then told that a GSM unit, which uses a mobile network, could be installed to get round this vulnerability.

I immediately called Eircom Phonewatch customer support and asked for this unit, but was told it would cost EUR140 extra. I stated that the system I had gotten was not what I was 'sold' because without the GSM unit the system was a waste of money and I was not forking out more euros. The customer service guy relayed my spiel to his supervisor, but the reply was that I would have to pay for GSM unit. I duly replied that I want the system uninstalled, as I will not be held to ransom by these scams.

I can't believe these buffoons are selling systems with such a vulnerability and expect people to ignore it, cover the external box, or fork out more for a GSM unit. And I hope that this post will reinforce the "heads up" as fishdog has given.

Jnealon

There's a couple of thingd you could do
1- You can secure the white plastic box outside by fixing a metal cage or plate over it
2 - depending on where your phone point is in the house the phone line can be placed in metal conduit to protect it. If it's in the hallway directly behind the outside box then this option will work

I have done both on a few jobs. Have you an external bell or just a decoy
Anyway keep putting pressure on to phonewatch and mention the two options above to them as an alternative