Do we have a low-tax economy?

AckwelFoley

CerebralCortex wrote: »

And the reason your so die hard FF? As far as it being not that bad well it could be a lot better. Talking to my Polish work mate how it was puzzuling to him and his contemporaries how for a country so rich neglects is social responsibiltie for exmple the proliforation of cheap public transport or at least will to proliforate chep public transport.

Do you not see the Irony in that Polish mans statment? If Ireland is such a socially inept nation why is he here? If poland was better socially shouldnt they be able to "share the wealth?"

Im not die hard FF at all.

Just Fine Gael wont get rid og that asshat Enda... i dont like the PD's.. bit too far right for my taste..

I just detest hardcore socialism, because of my beliefs, i dont have a red cent to my name.. im not poor either, but any work i do i benefit from.. i pay fair share in tax.

To fund socialism, it requires to tax the incentive out of people that want to "do better"


Why would i work 18 hours a day to get taxed 80 -90 %? Thats the taxation you would require to fund socialist ideals

CerebralCortex

snyper wrote: »

Do you not see the Irony in that Polish mans statment? If Ireland is such a socially inept nation why is he here? If poland was better socially shouldnt they be able to "share the wealth?"

Im not die hard FF at all.

Just Fine Gael wont get rid og that asshat Enda... i dont like the PD's.. bit too far right for my taste..

I just detest hardcore socialism, because of my beliefs, i dont have a red cent to my name.. im not poor either, but any work i do i benefit from.. i pay fair share in tax.

What? No.

murphaph

snyper wrote: »

Do you not see the Irony in that Polish mans statment? If Ireland is such a socially inept nation why is he here? If poland was better socially shouldnt they be able to "share the wealth?"

Poland was subject to a planned economy for nigh on half a century. Ireland has been 'free' a lot longer. Poland is arguably better today than Ireland was in 1985.

snyper wrote: »

Im not die hard FF at all.

In all fairness snyper, you could have fooled me.

snyper wrote: »

Just Fine Gael wont get rid og that asshat Enda... i dont like the PD's.. bit too far right for my taste..

The irony is that FF are as right wing as they come, without the balls to back it up. If they weren't right wing we wouldn't have so many PPP schemes on the cards. FF love giving contracts to the private sector. They just pretend to be socialists, they aren't. They're made up of far too many businessmen to be considered socialist.

snyper wrote: »

I just detest hardcore socialism, because of my beliefs, i dont have a red cent to my name.. im not poor either, but any work i do i benefit from.. i pay fair share in tax.

To fund socialism, it requires to tax the incentive out of people that want to "do better"

Why would i work 18 hours a day to get taxed 80 -90 %? Thats the taxation you would require to fund socialist ideals

Get real snyper. Even modest increases in taxation could fund huge improvements in social services. However, the problem isn't so much a lack of funds, rather a total mismanagement of our wealth (primarily by FF) which has seen vast sums squandered with a disimprovement in some public services.

In 1978 cystic fibrosis sufferers could turn up at Vincent's and gain immediate entry to a reserved bed in a reserved ward. Nowadays they must wait in A&E for up to a week to get into a ward. That is an appaling disimprovement in service level and is just one example.

How many years were FF in charge as the driving test queue spiralled to over a year?

etc. etc.

The publicans and estate agents who make up the ranks of FF must really be laughing that people like your good self still eat their sh!t and think they care about the common good.

AckwelFoley

Get real snyper. Even modest increases in taxation could fund huge improvements in social services

No, not the type of Ideals that socialism want to acheive

I disagree. I believe that even if you don't think the opposition will be any better, you ought to vote them in if you are dissatisfied with the incumbents. This is the only way to make the incumbents work for you and change their ways. If they believe they will be re-elected no matter how poorly they behave then they will behave as poorly as they can get away with.

This i fully agree with.

Bduffman

snyper wrote: »

Do you not see the Irony in that Polish mans statment? If Ireland is such a socially inept nation why is he here? If poland was better socially shouldnt they be able to "share the wealth?"

Im not die hard FF at all.

Just Fine Gael wont get rid og that asshat Enda... i dont like the PD's.. bit too far right for my taste..

I just detest hardcore socialism, because of my beliefs, i dont have a red cent to my name.. im not poor either, but any work i do i benefit from.. i pay fair share in tax.

To fund socialism, it requires to tax the incentive out of people that want to "do better"


Why would i work 18 hours a day to get taxed 80 -90 %? Thats the taxation you would require to fund socialist ideals

You must read the sun or the mail yeah? Sounds like their kind of drivel.

Firstly there is no major socialist party in Ireland - SF are not & never will be a major party thankfully. Labour are at most very slightly left of centre.

Secondly where does this myth of Ireland being a low tax economy come from? We are a low income tax economy - a very different thing. We still pay as much tax (if not more) than we ever did in the form of indirect tax. Nearly everyting we buy is taxed which means than the poorer you are the greater proportion of tax you pay. I'll bet if you add up the income tax you pay and add the indirect tax you pay on everything else you will find you are closer to that 80 - 90% that you talk about. But no - as long as you get an extra penny in your pay packet you're happy - try looking at the bigger picture & stop falling for FF & PD tax cuts as if you are benefiting from them.

Tommy T

Bduffman wrote: »

You must read the sun or the mail yeah? Sounds like their kind of drivel.

Firstly there is no major socialist party in Ireland - SF are not & never will be a major party thankfully. Labour are at most very slightly left of centre.

Secondly where does this myth of Ireland being a low tax economy come from? We are a low income tax economy - a very different thing. We still pay as much tax (if not more) than we ever did in the form of indirect tax. Nearly everyting we buy is taxed which means than the poorer you are the greater proportion of tax you pay. I'll bet if you add up the income tax you pay and add the indirect tax you pay on everything else you will find you are closer to that 80 - 90% that you talk about. But no - as long as you get an extra penny in your pay packet you're happy - try looking at the bigger picture & stop falling for FF & PD tax cuts as if you are benefiting from them.

Can you find us a country that doesn't charge a version of our VAT on goods and services? the difference is our Income Tax Rates are among the lowest in the EU. this benefits twofold. It's cheaper to employ someone here and employees have more control over the income they've earned.. Win/Win...

Bduffman

Tommy T wrote: »

Can you find us a country that doesn't charge a version of our VAT on goods and services? the difference is our Income Tax Rates are among the lowest in the EU. this benefits twofold. It's cheaper to employ someone here and employees have more control over the income they've earned.. Win/Win...

Our income tax may be lower but our level of indirect tax is amongst the highest in the OECD.
"Indirect taxes in Ireland, sometimes termed stealth taxes, are amongst the highest in the 30-member country OECD, and the total Irish taxation burden has changed little since 1995." By Finfacts Team Feb 28, 2007, 10:59

So again can we dispel this myth about low taxes? It is no use to "have control over the income they've earned" if you have to use your disposable income to buy essentials such as food, clothing, houses etc where you pay a second tax.

Tommy T

Bduffman wrote: »

Our income tax may be lower but our level of indirect tax is amongst the highest in the OECD.
"Indirect taxes in Ireland, sometimes termed stealth taxes, are amongst the highest in the 30-member country OECD, and the total Irish taxation burden has changed little since 1995." By Finfacts Team Feb 28, 2007, 10:59

So again can we dispel this myth about low taxes? It is no use to "have control over the income they've earned" if you have to use your disposable income to buy essentials such as food, clothing, houses etc where you pay a second tax.

Of the 25 countries in the EU 4 of them have a higher VAT rats and 2 with the same as ourselves. While our rate is 21% the average rate is 19.4%.

So rather than ranting about how we're so excessively taxed indirectly the facts are in the link below. Combine this with out 2nd lowest Income(direct) Tax rates I think that we're doing very well indeed...

http://www.expatax.nl/vatrates

markpb

I think you're missing the point. Income tax is just one tax. It doesn't matter how many other countries you compare income tax too, there are other, indirect taxes and yes, we have to pay them too. If they rise as income tax falls, the only benefit is for employers. I'm not a screaming socialist, I recognise the benefits of making it cheaper to employ people but you can't claim employees are better off if their overall levels of tax remains the same. Change the tune

Tommy T

markpb wrote: »

I think you're missing the point. Income tax is just one tax. It doesn't matter how many other countries you compare income tax too, there are other, indirect taxes and yes, we have to pay them too. If they rise as income tax falls, the only benefit is for employers. I'm not a screaming socialist, I recognise the benefits of making it cheaper to employ people but you can't claim employees are better off if their overall levels of tax remains the same. Change the tune

I respectfully disagree...

Bduffman

Tommy T wrote: »

Of the 25 countries in the EU 4 of them have a higher VAT rats and 2 with the same as ourselves. While our rate is 21% the average rate is 19.4%.

So rather than ranting about how we're so excessively taxed indirectly the facts are in the link below. Combine this with out 2nd lowest Income(direct) Tax rates I think that we're doing very well indeed...

http://www.expatax.nl/vatrates

I think you've just backed up my point. I've stated that our indirect tax is amongst the highest. As you've stated so clearly above, we are in the top 6 out of 25 countries in terms of VAT. Which reinforces my point that we have amongst the highest level of indirect tax. Thanks for that.

But my main point is that indirect tax is inherently less fair than income tax. If you are rich & taxed at 41% you are still going to be rich. If you are on minimum wage you pay a far higher proportion of your income on tax in the form of VAT. As I said - inherently unfair.

AckwelFoley

There are different methods of taxation. No matter how is done the governments need the same amount of revenue to run a country, some taxes are more noticible, and therefore make ppl think we may have a higher or lower level than other nations.. ie if houses arent taxed somthing else will.

I lived in New Hampshire, where there motto is live free or die... they pay minimal income tax and no VAT, so it seems they dont pay taxes? Wrong.. the property taxes alone on their homes are enormous and there are other taxes too we dont pay..

is_that_so

Tommy T wrote: »

Of the 25 countries in the EU 4 of them have a higher VAT rats and 2 with the same as ourselves. While our rate is 21% the average rate is 19.4%.

So rather than ranting about how we're so excessively taxed indirectly the facts are in the link below. Combine this with out 2nd lowest Income(direct) Tax rates I think that we're doing very well indeed...

http://www.expatax.nl/vatrates

If all we can do is cheer when we top tables for low taxes then we deserve what we've got.
I personally think it is a poor reflection on who we think we are.

I expect much more of government than "aren't we good, here's another tax cut".
Low tax rates are just one measure and one that, you are also aware, not wholly the preserve of FF, however much you blank out the contributions of non-FF parties over the last 20 years. I see Sweden is the highest. Sweden also has very high income tax and more importantly services that work. If paying more meant less "control over my money" but services that worked I would gladly do so. But would I give that money to the current government, absolutely not?

markpb

Tommy T wrote: »

I respectfully disagree...

It would be fantastic if you could expand on your opinion?

snyper wrote: »

There are different methods of taxation. No matter how you do it the governments need the same amount of taxation.. ie if houses arent taxed somthing else will

That's true but totally irrelevant. Tommy said we are a low tax economy, I countered that we're not because of the high level of indirect taxes.

Tommy T

Bduffman wrote: »

I think you've just backed up my point. I've stated that our indirect tax is amongst the highest. As you've stated so clearly above, we are in the top 6 out of 25 countries in terms of VAT. Which reinforces my point that we have amongst the highest level of indirect tax. Thanks for that.

But my main point is that indirect tax is inherently less fair than income tax. If you are rich & taxed at 41% you are still going to be rich. If you are on minimum wage you pay a far higher proportion of your income on tax in the form of VAT. As I said - inherently unfair.

If you're on the minimum wage you pay no Income Tax at all.. But don't let the facts get in the way of an anti_FF rant..;)

My point is having the lowest Income taxes in the EU combined with a VAT rate of onyl 1.5% above the EU evarage is far more preferrable to having the same VAT Rate and Incomwe Tax rates through the roof as they were prior to the McCreevy years...

IRLConor

Well from here (if you look at the table about a 1/4 of the way down) you can see the tax take for the EU expressed as a percentage of GDP. The figures include all taxes.

This is a summary of the 2003 data:

28.5% Lithuania
28.9% Latvia
29.9% Ireland
30.6% Slovakia
33.3% Cyprus
33.4% Estonia
33.6% Malta
35.6% Spain
35.7% United Kingdom
35.8% Poland
36.2% Czech Republic
36.2% Greece
37.0% Portugal
39.1% Hungary
39.3% The Netherlands
40.1% Slovenia
41.3% Luxembourg
42.9% Italy
43.0% Austria
43.2% Norway
43.8% France
44.8% Finland
45.7% Belgium
48.8% Denmark
50.8% Sweden

As far as I know, Ireland is a low tax country.

AckwelFoley

May i respectfully suggest splitting the thread and starting a new taxation thread

Bduffman

Tommy T wrote: »

If you're on the minimum wage you pay no Income Tax at all.. But don't let the facts get in the way of an anti_FF rant..;)

And I state yet again - income tax is not the point - indirect tax is inherently less fair because if you are on the minimum wage, while you don't pay income tax, you do pay a far higher proportion in the form of indirect tax than the highest earners. You keep choosing to ignore that point.

I think this is very much on topic as the 'low tax' myth is often thrown about as if it is a great achievement of Bertie Aherne. Well the trick to running a country is take in the necessary revenue to run the country efficiently while ensuring the tax burden is fair. We are a long way from that even 10 years down the road of FF/PD government.

Tommy T

Bduffman wrote: »

And I state yet again - income tax is not the point - indirect tax is inherently less fair because if you are on the minimum wage, while you don't pay income tax, you do pay a far higher proportion in the form of indirect tax than the highest earners. You keep choosing to ignore that point.

I think this is very much on topic as the 'low tax' myth is often thrown about as if it is a great achievement of Bertie Aherne. Well the trick to running a country is take in the necessary revenue to run the country efficiently while ensuring the tax burden is fair. We are a long way from that even 10 years down the road of FF/PD government.

Is our very low income tax rate an irrelevance or something that goes against your arguement so you try to avoid it...?

Bduffman

Tommy T wrote: »

Is our very low income tax rate an irrelevance or something that goes against your arguement so you try to avoid it...?

And for the third time, I was just pointing out that relative to other countries we DO NOT have a low tax economy, when all taxes are taken into account (an argument used again & again in support of Ahern). And if we are to generate revenue to run the country efficiently, income tax is a far fairer system.

Tommy T

Bduffman wrote: »

And for the third time, I was just pointing out that relative to other countries we DO NOT have a low tax economy, when all taxes are taken into account (an argument used again & again in support of Ahern). And if we are to generate revenue to run the country efficiently, income tax is a far fairer system.

I fundamentally disagree. Out historically low income tax rates contribute to us being a low tax economy compared to our EU neighbours.

Please give us figure to prove otherwise...

Bduffman

Tommy T wrote: »

I fundamentally disagree. Out historically low income tax rates contribute to us being a low tax economy compared to our EU neighbours.

Please give us figure to prove otherwise...

I fundamentally disagree. Figures already posted on this thread prove that we pay more indirect tax than most of Europe. The definition of a low tax economy should encompass all taxes - not just income tax. And (for the fourth time), all countries need a similar amount of revenue per head of population to run efficiently. It is WHO funds that & HOW it is collected determines how fair it is and what kind of society we have. By FF blindly following PD philosophies just to cling on to power, we have an unfair tax system which penalises the average to low paid. The trouble is, try as I might it is near impossible to find out how much the average person spends on indirect tax - I believe thats why they are called stealth taxes

LostinBlanch

snyper wrote: »

May i respectfully suggest splitting the thread and starting a new taxation thread

Good idea.

Tommy T

Bduffman wrote: »

I fundamentally disagree. Figures already posted on this thread prove that we pay more indirect tax than most of Europe. The definition of a low tax economy should encompass all taxes - not just income tax. And (for the fourth time), all countries need a similar amount of revenue per head of population to run efficiently. It is WHO funds that & HOW it is collected determines how fair it is and what kind of society we have. By FF blindly following PD philosophies just to cling on to power, we have an unfair tax system which penalises the average to low paid. The trouble is, try as I might it is near impossible to find out how much the average person spends on indirect tax - I believe thats why they are called stealth taxes

But look at what happened when Charlie Mc started reducing the inc tax levels. The tax take increased. Therefore by reducing rates the income to the exchequer increased. Yet another win/win. The same can be said for the halving of Corporation Tax.

The overall tax burden is far heavier on the French, Germans and Scandinavians...

IRLConor

Bduffman wrote: »

I fundamentally disagree. Figures already posted on this thread prove that we pay more indirect tax than most of Europe. The definition of a low tax economy should encompass all taxes - not just income tax. And (for the fourth time), all countries need a similar amount of revenue per head of population to run efficiently. It is WHO funds that & HOW it is collected determines how fair it is and what kind of society we have. By FF blindly following PD philosophies just to cling on to power, we have an unfair tax system which penalises the average to low paid. The trouble is, try as I might it is near impossible to find out how much the average person spends on indirect tax - I believe thats why they are called stealth taxes

May I refer you to my previous post #16. The figures there are not just for income tax. They include tax from ALL sources. Ireland is a low tax state.

Now that does not mean the tax is fairly distributed, but on average Irish people do pay less tax than our neighbours.

oscarBravo

Split from the "should Bertie resign?" thread.

bonkey

IRLConor wrote: »

Ireland is a low tax state.

I vaguely remember seeing something in the Swiss papers a month or so ago, saying that the Swiss were a low-tax State, behind only Ireland in Europe.

murphaph

Tommy T wrote: »

The overall tax burden is far heavier on the French, Germans and Scandinavians...

.....and they're CF sufferers live 60% longer than ours. Go figure. It seems many people in Ireland want the tax model of the US but the social services of the Scandinavians. Can't have both in reality. Either you care about your fellow (less fortunate) citizens or you don't. It's all fine until somebody close to you suddenly needs 'the system' to help them.

aside: Ireland has turned into one of the greediest places on earth and I hope all the people who despair at paying a few cents in the euro more tax are the ones who end up needing the health'care' we provide as a nation. Heck, if you're so interested in "each to their own" you'll surely have private cover for every eventuality, right?

Of course this doesn't excuse the horrendous levels of mismanagement of our wealth in recent years.

IRLConor

murphaph wrote: »

.....and they're CF sufferers live 60% longer than ours. Go figure. It seems many people in Ireland want the tax model of the US but the social services of the Scandinavians. Can't have both in reality.

From 2001-2005 we have spent almost exactly the same amount on our health service as Finland (GDP-adjusted). (Source) Did we get the same level of service?

Even before then, despite taking approximately 50% more tax (GDP-adjusted, see my previous data) they didn't spend 50% more on their health system.

Our health system isn't crap due to lack of money. It's crap due to bad management and spending money in the wrong places.

murphaph wrote: »

aside: Ireland has turned into one of the greediest places on earth and I hope all the people who despair at paying a few cents in the euro more tax are the ones who end up needing the health'care' we provide as a nation. Heck, if you're so interested in "each to their own" you'll surely have private cover for every eventuality, right?

I despair at paying a few extra cents in the euro more tax because I don't believe that any potential government with any possibility of being elected in the near future will spend my extra tax money in the right places. Given that I've judged them incompetent, I think the only rational thing is to decide for myself where to spend my cash.

I don't like paying the VHI for private cover when I've already paid for health cover in my tax bill. I pay for it because I don't believe I can be without proper health care when I need it. I want a high quality of care from the public system I just don't see it happening any time soon.

fly_agaric

snyper wrote: »

I just detest hardcore socialism

A "good" (by standards of rest of Europe) public transport system and a "good" (by same standards) public health service != "hardcore socialism" IMO. It's just the way things should be.

snyper wrote: »

I lived in New Hampshire, where there motto is live free or die

Why didn't you stay there if you hate "socialised medicine" and "socialised transport":) so much?

murphaph

IRLConor wrote: »

From 2001-2005 we have spent almost exactly the same amount on our health service as Finland (GDP-adjusted). (Source) Did we get the same level of service?

Even before then, despite taking approximately 50% more tax (GDP-adjusted, see my previous data) they didn't spend 50% more on their health system.

Our health system isn't crap due to lack of money. It's crap due to bad management and spending money in the wrong places.



I despair at paying a few extra cents in the euro more tax because I don't believe that any potential government with any possibility of being elected in the near future will spend my extra tax money in the right places. Given that I've judged them incompetent, I think the only rational thing is to decide for myself where to spend my cash.

I don't like paying the VHI for private cover when I've already paid for health cover in my tax bill. I pay for it because I don't believe I can be without proper health care when I need it. I want a high quality of care from the public system I just don't see it happening any time soon.

Fair enough and I agree with what you say-we do spend money poorly and the core issue here is a lack of value for money, however I believe my point still stands.....irish people want to pay taxes as low as the states but want public services as good as the best in Europe. I think it is generally accepted that it is impossible to deliver that (unless you have a lot of homegrown industry which you can tax at 40% and hope they don't offshore out of a sense of patriotism).

Oh, and I wouldn't rely on VHI to do all that much for you should you need it. If you need A&E etc. you'll still have to queue and be seen based on your condition.