Do we have a low-tax economy?

IRLConor

Irresponsible, poor spending of our tax money does not necessarily imply that we are paying high taxes. If public services were perfect and tax money was being spent on frivolous excesses then you'd be right, but public services here are far from perfect.

It's extremely difficult to determine whether or not we're paying enough tax to fund good public services (or even what constitutes "good public services"). What is knowable is that we do not pay high taxes compared to other EU countries. Read the figures in post #16, if you can find hard data from a respectable source that contradicts that I'd love to see it.

User45701

So when you say "low tax" or "high tax" your not really talking about if the tax is low are high, your talking about Ireland's tax rates compared to other nations is that it?
If so then I think i have misunderstood this topic based on the thread title

oscarBravo

That's because you hadn't read the thread before you posted. This is probably a good time to do so.

IRLConor

User45701 wrote: »

So when you say "low tax" or "high tax" your not really talking about if the tax is low are high, your talking about Ireland's tax rates compared to other nations is that it?

What other scale do you have to judge it against? There is no readily-available absolute scale of what constitutes "low tax" or "high tax".

Imagine that people in Ireland paid precisely 20% of their income in tax (including all hidden taxes). Would this 20% rate be high or low? How would you determine where "low" ended and "high" began?

User45701

IRLConor wrote: »

What other scale do you have to judge it against? There is no readily-available absolute scale of what constitutes "low tax" or "high tax".

Imagine that people in Ireland paid precisely 20% of their income in tax (including all hidden taxes). Would this 20% rate be high or low? How would you determine where "low" ended and "high" began?

Low would be determined by a government that taxes there people as little as possible, a government that just taxes what they need to maintain the nation and for advancements, new roads and other essentials, however the excessive spending onb needless things like stupid wages for the government in power, pointless things like the spire, excessive military spending, other things like too much spending on travel, like that jet they got.

High would be spending money on those things and more useless stuff, i can go into detail if you like....

IRLConor

User45701 wrote: »

Low would be determined by a government that taxes their people as little as possible, a government that just taxes what they need to maintain the nation and for advancements, new roads and other essentials,

OK. How do you propose to demonstrate that our current level of taxation is more than is needed for the maintenance/development of the nation?

Imagine Ireland needed €100 to maintain and develop all of its public services and government functions perfectly. If they take €90 in tax, spend €10 on frivolous crap and spend €80 underfunding the public services are we being taxed too much or too little?

Your argument appears to be analogous to: We need €100 to run the country. They're taking €120, hence they're ripping us off.

If you don't wish to compare taxes in a relative manner to other neighbouring/similar countries and you wish to claim that we are being taxed too much then you must demonstrate (somehow) that the amount of tax taken by the government is equal to or greater than the amount of money needed to maintain/develop the country. I suspect that this is impossible to do without knowing how much money is needed to run the country.

User45701 wrote: »

however the excessive spending on needless things like stupid wages for the government in power,

Agreed, they pay themselves too much. Doesn't necessarily mean they take too much in tax though. They could easily drop taxes and increase their own salaries.

User45701 wrote: »

pointless things like the spire,

I would argue that the spire is very pointy indeed. But, seriously, yes it was largely a waste of money.

User45701 wrote: »

excessive military spending,

We have (jointly with Austria and Luxembourg) the lowest level of military spending in Europe at 0.9% of GDP (figures from the CIA world factbook). Hardly excessive!

User45701 wrote: »

other things like too much spending on travel, like that jet they got.

I don't know the exact figures for how much MATS costs the taxpayer. I also don't know how much flying commercial airlines (including the cost of security for whatever politician is flying commercial) compares to it. Cheaper for sure, but by how much? Executive travel on military jets is the norm for most governments around the world, I'm sure there's a reason why.

AckwelFoley

moe_sizlak wrote: »

so you think public servatns in general in scandanavia are just as lazy and inneficent and self serving as they are in ireland

Im not saying they are lazy or inneggicent.

But why would they be any different than in Ireland except better looking?

moe_sizlak

snyper wrote: »

Im not saying they are lazy or inneggicent.

But why would they be any different than in Ireland except better looking?

indeed , or why would public servants in nigeria be any different either i suppose

AckwelFoley

.. been Nigerian, i take offence to that.

murphaph

snyper wrote: »

.. been Nigerian, i take offence to that.

But you're not Nigerian anymore?

AckwelFoley

But you're not Nigerian anymore?

No.

I got my first wife pregnant with baby, left her and married white irish woman for Irish passport

I like this country,

BurnsCarpenter

The bottom line is public spending as a percentage of GDP.
In Ireland this is around 30% which is low relative to other countries.

moe_sizlak

BurnsCarpenter wrote: »

The bottom line is public spending as a percentage of GDP.
In Ireland this is around 30% which is low relative to other countries.

which other countries is it low compared to

btw , those in the public service on average earn a lot more than there counterparts in the private sector who also go without the job for life and bullet proof pension , the recent down turn in the stock market wont affect public servant pensions

IRLConor

moe_sizlak wrote: »

which other countries is it low compared to

All the EU countries except Latvia and Lithuania. See post #16 in this thread for the figures.

moe_sizlak wrote: »

btw , those in the public service on average earn a lot more than their counterparts in the private sector

I've often seen this said, but how do you defined "counterpart"?

Húrin

Public services are ****e not because the taxes are too low, but because the government is inefficient and wastes money on projects that shouldn't exist at all (M3 motorway, Airport expansions etc).

AckwelFoley

Húrin wrote: »

Public services are ****e not because the taxes are too low, but because the government is inefficient and wastes money on projects that shouldn't exist at all (M3 motorway, Airport expansions etc).

LOL.

Airport expansion not necessary?

BurnsCarpenter

Húrin wrote: »

Public services are ****e not because the taxes are too low, but because the government is inefficient and wastes money on projects that shouldn't exist at all (M3 motorway, Airport expansions etc).

It's a combination of both low taxation and inefficiency.

moe_sizlak

Húrin wrote: »

Public services are ****e not because the taxes are too low, but because the government is inefficient and wastes money on projects that shouldn't exist at all (M3 motorway, Airport expansions etc).

its because public servants no matter how surplus to requirements or no matter how non productive they are , are never fired , to do so would put the unions on the street and make jobless figures look bad which in turn would make bertie ( best friend of the unions ) aherne look bad

take for example the health service, were the amount of money spent on wages paid to surplus pen pushers to be spent instead on beds , you would not hear on liveline every day about old grannys on trolleys