Summerfield estate to the Blanch centre - why no pedestrian route through the wall??

BostonB

All I'm hearing its excuses for shortcuts, not walking, not cycling. If its more than 20 mins walk, people can't get there on time, and need to drive, a lot. Thats just pathetic. Won't be many Tom Crean's from around here thats for sure. If people can't manage a 30 min walk, thats terrible.

You can cycle parallel to clonsilla rd through glenville. I had no problems cycling from clonsilla to castleknock even russell park as a kid. Lots of smaller roads you can use if scared of big roads.

The wall doesn't create litter thats just daft. People do. The same people that will use the walkway, and the logic here is that they will suddenly not litter for some magical reason because theres a walkway. Thats just not logical.

So now your saying theres a crime problem on the road, but there won't be if theres a walkway. Sorry but again I dunno what magical properties you think a walkway has, but crime prevention is unlikely to be one.

Time lock gates are there for a reason. How is that guess work? I have lived near walkways before, in other places. I'm talking of my experience. Google "Alleyways in estates" and see what you get back. Lots of problems with alleyways. Its not an imaginary problem like your suggesting.

But then its won't be your problem anyway because its not in your back yard.

Won't be my problem either because I don't live there either.

Bunnyhopper

BostonB wrote: »

All I'm hearing its excuses for shortcuts, not walking, not cycling. If its more than 20 mins walk, people can't get there on time, and need to drive, a lot. Thats just pathetic. Won't be many Tom Crean's from around here thats for sure. If people can't manage a 30 min walk, thats terrible.

You can cycle parallel to clonsilla rd through glenville. I had no problems cycling from clonsilla to castleknock even russell park as a kid. Lots of smaller roads you can use if scared of big roads.

I do live close to the shopping centre and the gate would make a difference to me. I don't have a problem cycling long distances or on busy roads. I'd love to cycle up to the shopping centre but after trying it a few times and having parts stolen off the bicycle while it was locked up outside the centre I had to give up on that. I don't want to drive and add to the traffic so walking is my preferred option.

It is terrible when someone can't manage a 30 minute walk. The gate would make a difference to me, but in the meantime I can manage walking for 30 minutes, 60 minutes or longer. My mother, on the other hand, has problems with her joints and so walking for any length of time is difficult. She'd love to be able to walk up to the shopping centre, wander around the shops and walk home without having to sit down in the shopping centre for half an hour so that she doesn't end up with aching knees and hips. At present she can't do that; provide a gate and she could do it.

The laneway between Roselawn Road and Ramor Park has been in place for many many years and has a gate on it that is locked at night. It seems to work just fine. The laneway between the Clonsilla Road, Woodview Grove and Roselawn Glade have similarly been in place for a long time and while one of them had problems with anti-social behaviour those problems were associated with a secluded greenspace on a long laneway, and they were addressed.

Any problems are always likely to be worse in a laneway. What's proposed here is just a gate in a wall - there's no secluded laneway or greenspace proposed here, afaik.

BostonB

Bunnyhopper wrote: »

I do live close to the shopping centre and the gate would make a difference to me. I don't have a problem cycling long distances or on busy roads. I'd love to cycle up to the shopping centre but after trying it a few times and having parts stolen off the bicycle while it was locked up outside the centre I had to give up on that. I don't want to drive and add to the traffic so walking is my preferred option.

The point about cycling was cycling to school. Not the shopping center. Sounds like theres a crime problem during the day from you say though if you can't leave a bike anywhere.

Bunnyhopper wrote: »

It is terrible when someone can't manage a 30 minute walk. The gate would make a difference to me, but in the meantime I can manage walking for 30 minutes, 60 minutes or longer. My mother, on the other hand, has problems with her joints and so walking for any length of time is difficult. She'd love to be able to walk up to the shopping centre, wander around the shops and walk home without having to sit down in the shopping centre for half an hour so that she doesn't end up with aching knees and hips. At present she can't do that; provide a gate and she could do it.

I never said a gate wouldn't make the distance shorter or easier. That was never the issue. The issue was the impact on the people living beside it.

Just that the people complaining about it on this thread, are struggling with a 30 min walk (or less), and they are young people who can climb a 6ft wall. Not that people can walk around the center, but not to it.

Bunnyhopper wrote: »

The laneway between Roselawn Road and Ramor Park has been in place for many many years and has a gate on it that is locked at night. It seems to work just fine. The laneway between the Clonsilla Road, Woodview Grove and Roselawn Glade have similarly been in place for a long time and while one of them had problems with anti-social behaviour those problems were associated with a secluded greenspace on a long laneway, and they were addressed.....

Indeed.

http://roderic.wordpress.com/2009/03/22/press-release-o%e2%80%99gorman-welcomes-clarification-about-opening-and-closing-times-for-rushbrook-%e2%80%93-roselawn-road-laneway/

...Recently, residents in Rushbrook raised concerns with me that the gates on the Rushbrook – Roselawn laneway were not being locked at night as was agreed with Fingal County Council....

Enii

BostonB wrote: »

All I'm hearing its excuses for shortcuts, not walking, not cycling. If its more than 20 mins walk, people can't get there on time, and need to drive, a lot. Thats just pathetic. Won't be many Tom Crean's from around here thats for sure. If people can't manage a 30 min walk, thats terrible.

It is not that people aren't able for a 30 minute walk - I think it is that people are under a lot of time pressure these days - that's why they drive rather then walk.

We need to be looking at ways to make it easier to walk ad cycle around the local area. - Opening walkways through estates does this.

BostonB

What your saying is people can't organise themselves to make a 30 min journey on time. Thats even worse excuse in fairness.

I never disputed that its useful to have walkways. But theres a flipside which is why they end up being gated, or closed a lot of the time. Fingal CC minutes are full of such requests. Its even part of their FAQ, its so popular.

Not much point being able to cycle if you can't leave your bike anywhere

Enii

BostonB wrote: »

What your saying is people can't organise themselves to make a 30 min journey on time. Thats even worse excuse in fairness.

No, I am saying that if people are pushed for time and if they have the option of a 30 min walk or a 5 min drive they will probably choose the 5 min drive - so they can efficiently manage their time.

However, if they had the option of a shorter time walk by going through an estate they would possibly choose this option.

It's nothing to do with being badly organised or lazy which you seem to have become fixated upon.

We are all busy people with family, work and other commitments, etc. Please give us a break!!!!

BostonB

I think someone that will choose a 5 min drive over a 30 min walk will choose the same over a 20 or 15 min walk. Since driving is still quicker and easier. If that's the logic. They'd probably drive into the estate and use it for parking to avoid the traffic around the center. Of course originally it was school kids we were talking about. Before the Shopping center existed kids managed to get to Coolmine school without cars and on time. Clonsilla rd was arguablely faster moving then than it is now.

The only thing I'm fixating on is the logic disconnect in some replies.

BostonB

In short it would be handy. But most people won't want to live beside it.

Luttrell1975

Ok Boston B you suggested earlier that we google alleyways. And I did. And I realised how wrongly you are thinking about this. An alleyway is a path between buildings. A walkway goes over open space. Alleyways are bad alright because they tend to be dark and you also tend not to meet anyone in them. Nobody has to live beside a walkway.

Now I am not a genius at reading maps but from what I saw there the walkway goes over a green strip and through the wall. There is already a PUBLIC footpath all the way along the road in Springlawn. The walkway would only be a few metres at most.

Your point about time. Well if someone pays their taxes why shouldnt they have a right to get around easily? Why should one person being afraid of a crime that never occured say to another person that they MUST make a 30 instead of 5 minute journey everyday in the honour of Tom Crean? That's stretching it.

At best you don't understand. At worst you are tossing in red herrings.

BostonB

I'm talking about my direct first hand experience of walkways and alleyways. Not what I think those problems might be, like most people on this thread. In my experience they have similar problems so I don't see any point in the distinction your making.

According to google to walk from the entrance of summerfield to the snugsborough roundabout via main st Blanch is a 15 min walk. To walk from entrance of summerfield to Coolmine School up clonsilla rd is a 17 min walk. Only about 13 mins if you cut through Coolmine blvd, as most kids do. So what 5min or 30 min journey are you talking about.

amdublin

I've re-read the last few pages. I am just not getting why people would want to object to a gate.

People are using their estate as a shortcut currently and having to climb over a wall at the moment. Put a gate there and they don't have to jump a wall.

To me there is something very backward and not very positive social situation about having to jump over a wall.

Put a gate in!

BostonB

Its says on the first page its because of increase of anti-social behaviour, theft etc. Which is also the reason for time lock gates. dunno how could you miss that. They could always try it for a few months. Then re-evaluate it in 3 months or so.

Bunnyhopper

BostonB wrote: »

The point about cycling was cycling to school. Not the shopping center. Sounds like theres a crime problem during the day from you say though if you can't leave a bike anywhere.

My point about my choice between walking, driving or cycling to the shopping centre still stands. Yes, crime happens in Blanchardstown (hardly a shock to anyone) just as it happens everywhere else in Dublin... It even happens in places where there aren't gates in walls - and even if you're Ray D'Arcy in Donnybrook

BostonB wrote: »

I never said a gate wouldn't make the distance shorter or easier. That was never the issue. The issue was the impact on the people living beside it.

For many people the fact that a gate would make the trip shorter and easier is the issue. Unfortunately, those objecting to the gate seem to think that everyone who would benefit from the shorter and easier access between the centre and the village can go hang just because some Summerfield residents have concerns about a gate.

Are those concerns well-grounded?

When Summerfield was built the developer wanted to leave open the pedestrian access through from Summerfield to Broadway but some Broadway residents objected. They wanted a wall built between the two estates, and not one with a gate in it. The concerns they expressed are precisely the ones that are now being raised in relation to this gate: crime, anti-social behaviour, destroying the character of a quiet cul-de-sac, the children won't be safe, etc. etc. etc.

What actually happened is that there is free pedestrian access between the two estates, and the people who live in Summerfield and those who use the pedestrian access between the two estates are not, it turns out, semi-feral criminal vandals. (If any of them are, you certainly can't tell from looking at the character of the Broadway estate, which really hasn't changed much at all.)

Of course, some of the people who moved into Summerfield are now complaining about pedestrian access because of fears about crime, anti-social behaviour, destroying the character of a quiet cul-de-sac, the children won't be safe, etc. etc. etc.... From what I've heard some of them are even trying to get Broadway residents to lobby Fingal County Council in opposition to the planned gate. The irony... :rolleyes:

BostonB wrote: »

Just that the people complaining about it on this thread, are struggling with a 30 min walk (or less), and they are young people who can climb a 6ft wall. Not that people can walk around the center, but not to it.

That doesn't invalidate my point about people who would benefit from shorter and easier access to the centre. If every planning decision was based on our fears about what the miscreants in our society might do then we'd all be living in bunkers inside gated communities. I can walk for plenty longer than 30 minutes, and I could climb a wall no problem, but I'd still like to see this gate put in place. I can see wider benefits deriving from it and believe that a properly managed pedestrian route would be beneficial.

BostonB wrote: »

http://roderic.wordpress.com/2009/03/22/press-release-o%e2%80%99gorman-welcomes-clarification-about-opening-and-closing-times-for-rushbrook-%e2%80%93-roselawn-road-laneway/

The distinction I made between a laneway and a simple gate in a wall is an important one. The Roselawn-Rushbrook link includes a laneway, which, as I said, makes it more problematic. In the article you linked to the concerns expressed by residents relate specifically to the closing of the gate at night and not to the presence of the gate itself. An issue arose and it was resolved sensibly, so, as I said, it seems to work just fine. The article seems to me to be a very good demonstration of how a properly managed pedestrian route can be a great benefit to a community.

Enii

BostonB wrote: »

Its says on the first page its because of increase of anti-social behaviour, theft etc. Which is also the reason for time lock gates. dunno how could you miss that. They could always try it for a few months. Then re-evaluate it in 3 months or so.

But there was never a gate there. So how can they positively say that anti-social behaviour or theft will occur.


People are currently using the estate as a short cut....... Put a gate in and let them continue this behaviour in a more safe manner.

Let's not sensationalise the addition of a gated walkway and add to the closing off of areas to walkers.

BostonB

Enii wrote: »

But there was never a gate there. So how can they positively say that anti-social behaviour or theft will occur..

Past experience of other walkways in similar context.

Enii wrote: »

...Let's not sensationalise the addition of a gated walkway and add to the closing off of areas to walkers.

How is its sensationalised by pointing out the problems with other walkways.

BostonB

Bunnyhopper wrote: »

My point about my choice between walking, driving or cycling to the shopping centre still stands. Yes, crime happens in Blanchardstown (hardly a shock to anyone) just as it happens everywhere else in Dublin... It even happens in places where there aren't gates in walls - and even if you're Ray D'Arcy in Donnybrook .

So crime happens during the day, and in this area. Walkways have more problems than somewhere without a walkway. Yet locking the walkway at night, is the solution. Makes no sense.

Bunnyhopper wrote: »

For many people the fact that a gate would make the trip shorter and easier is the issue. Unfortunately, those objecting to the gate seem to think that everyone who would benefit from the shorter and easier access between the centre and the village can go hang just because some Summerfield residents have concerns about a gate.

Its not the only issue. Unless you don't give a fiddlers about people living beside it. So obviously ye don't. Nice.

Actually I said they should give it a trial and see how it works. And I said its useful to have a wakway. I'm seeing both sides, neither of which effect me in the slightest as I wouldn't use it, and I don't live there. But a lot of comments here are blantantly one sided and only interested in how it effects themselves.

Bunnyhopper wrote: »

Are those concerns well-grounded?

When Summerfield was built the developer wanted to leave open the pedestrian access through from Summerfield to Broadway but some Broadway residents objected. They wanted a wall built between the two estates, and not one with a gate in it. The concerns they expressed are precisely the ones that are now being raised in relation to this gate: crime, anti-social behaviour, destroying the character of a quiet cul-de-sac, the children won't be safe, etc. etc. etc.....

Access between two quiet estates with relatively little crime, is entirely different to access next door to a night club and massive shopping center, with far higher levels of crime relative to a quiet estate.

Even access between estates is entirely different to access to a major road.

BostonB

The only way to know is to try it for a while. I've ready said that.

amdublin

BostonB wrote: »

Its says on the first page its because of increase of anti-social behaviour, theft etc.

Is it not anti-social enough that people are currently walking through their estate and climbing over the wall? I would have thought a gate would be a cure not a cause.

BostonB wrote: »

The only way to know is to try it for a while. I've ready said that.

Yet you still manage to sound negative about it from your previous posts. (The vibe being that people should walk the 30 mins etc) Strange.

BostonB

amdublin wrote: »

Is it not anti-social enough that people are currently walking through their estate and climbing over the wall? I would have thought a gate would be a cure not a cause.

It might fix that problem but might cause many other worse problems.

amdublin wrote: »

Yet you still manage to sound negative about it from your previous posts. (The vibe being that people should walk the 30 mins etc) Strange.

Ive talked about both positives and negatives. Perhaps Your only seeing negatives as perhaps your only seeing one side of it.

BostonB

For the record I think a walk way is a good idea if there no problems during a trial period.

mink_man

beats me brian!

Luttrell1975

BostonB wrote: »

For the record I think a walk way is a good idea if there no problems during a trial period.

Hey that is good news and fair play to you for being willing to debate all the connected issues, real and imagined by people. Some more honesty by politicians on these issues would also help.

It is very important that we understand walkways and alleyways differently. Alleyways are intimidating because they are usually dark and nobody has a clear view of you if you get into /cause trouble. A walkway that just goes a few metres between the pathway on Snugboro road and the pedestrain right of way inside the estate is a different thing altogether because its in the open and all the houses can see it.

The gate of the alleyway doesnt work because its human controlled. If you had the electronic kind talked about earlier it would be ideal.

BostonB

Luttrell1975 wrote: »

...It is very important that we understand walkways and alleyways differently. Alleyways are intimidating because they are usually dark and nobody has a clear view of you if you get into /cause trouble. A walkway that just goes a few metres between the pathway on Snugboro road and the pedestrain right of way inside the estate is a different thing altogether because its in the open and all the houses can see it.

You're only thinking of one issue, if you have problems in the alleyway itself. Whereas most of the problems for the residents, will be caused by ease of access/exit to the estate. Which is the same regardless if its an alleyway or walkway.

Luttrell1975 wrote: »

The gate of the alleyway doesnt work because its human controlled. If you had the electronic kind talked about earlier it would be ideal.

Are any in the area controlled like that? or are they all manual?

daymobrew

At the recent special FCC Meeting for Castleknock/Mulhuddart Area Committee (Thu 18 Feb, 3pm) submissions about the forthcoming Development Plan were discussed.

It seems that the "Proposed access at Springlawn/Sprintfield (to Blanchardstown Centre)" will be removed from the Development Plan.
See 37sec into the above video.

Godge

daymobrew wrote: »

At the recent special FCC Meeting for Castleknock/Mulhuddart Area Committee (Thu 18 Feb, 3pm) submissions about the forthcoming Development Plan were discussed.

It seems that the "Proposed access at Springlawn/Sprintfield (to Blanchardstown Centre)" will be removed from the Development Plan.
See 37sec into the above video.

I saw that. Another example of how short-sighted NIMBYism brings the politicians to heel. The access would have discommoded a small number of Summerfield residents but would have benefitted a large number of Blanchardstown residents and would have been environmentally friendly.

It is always this way. When Dublin City Council originally proposed the 39 bus lane, it was to be continuous on both sides all the way in and out with some sections one-way to car traffic to allow for this. However, residents and businesses in Stoneybatter objected there and residents in Navan Road/Cabra objected as well. A good idea written off by NIMBYism. Ironically, the residents of Summerfield are some of those who have lost out because of this!!!

We get the politicians we deserve and that we look for. Those who will swing in the wind according to the loudest and most organised voices and won't keep an eye on the country's interests. No wonder the Celtic Tiger turned into the Celtic rug.

BostonB

Certainly, its not in the back yard of the vast majority voting for it.

realworld101

as a lifetime resident of Blanchardstown , and someone directly effected by the issues at Summerfield, i feel i must make a general comment...

If protecting our families and property is nimbyism, than spank my ass and call me nimby. Unless you are regularly awoken to the sounds of drunken hordes leaving the adjacent heaven nightclub thanking god for the wall, or have been directly effected by what happens wrt to parking in private estates adjacent to facilities and transport, then really you're oppinions only carry so much weight. Google the adjacent "Budabar" for tales of the violence subjected to punters on the way home from that fine establishment, or investigate the woes of those living next to Clonsilla and Coolmine train stations who miss bin collections and are regularly inaccessible to fire brigades through outsider parking and traffic. Other issues of anti social behaviour and crime have already been covered.
As much as we appreciate the rest of the world telling us how to rearrange where we live, and barricade ourselves into our houses, in order to minimise the exercise the rest of you are forced to endure, thanks, but no thanks. These so called compromise solutions of an easily sabotageable gate or a "trial period" may sound noble in lah-lah land, but they are akin to seeing what happens if we allow the horse to make up his own mind before shutting the barn door. There is no right-of-way now and never has been... (the estate having existed before the roadway and nightclub) and the creation of one is something that would not be tolerated. And as for living my life under CCTV surveillance , i aint no Truman.
We do not want to bring the Blanchardstown centre any further into our community and lives. If any of you want to live in this commercial centre with all of its vices, there's plenty for sale in the estates adjacent. Rather than moving the goalposts on the decisions we have made on where to raise our families, perhaps reconsider your own choices?

Phoenix3

realworld101 wrote: »

as a lifetime resident of Blanchardstown , and someone directly effected by the issues at Summerfield, i feel i must make a general comment...

If protecting our families and property is nimbyism, than spank my ass and call me nimby. Unless you are regularly awoken to the sounds of drunken hordes leaving the adjacent heaven nightclub thanking god for the wall, or have been directly effected by what happens wrt to parking in private estates adjacent to facilities and transport, then really you're oppinions only carry so much weight. Google the adjacent "Budabar" for tales of the violence subjected to punters on the way home from that fine establishment, or investigate the woes of those living next to Clonsilla and Coolmine train stations who miss bin collections and are regularly inaccessible to fire brigades through outsider parking and traffic. Other issues of anti social behaviour and crime have already been covered.
As much as we appreciate the rest of the world telling us how to rearrange where we live, and barricade ourselves into our houses, in order to minimise the exercise the rest of you are forced to endure, thanks, but no thanks. These so called compromise solutions of an easily sabotageable gate or a "trial period" may sound noble in lah-lah land, but they are akin to seeing what happens if we allow the horse to make up his own mind before shutting the barn door. There is no right-of-way now and never has been... (the estate having existed before the roadway and nightclub) and the creation of one is something that would not be tolerated. And as for living my life under CCTV surveillance , i aint no Truman.
We do not want to bring the Blanchardstown centre any further into our community and lives. If any of you want to live in this commercial centre with all of its vices, there's plenty for sale in the estates adjacent. Rather than moving the goalposts on the decisions we have made on where to raise our families, perhaps reconsider your own choices?

Excellent first post-Well Done and welcome to Boards.

amdublin

Hi <SNIP>,

Enjoy the sight of people climbing over your wall with the use of an overturned trolley (nice!) rather than walking through a gate, for the rest of the time you live there.

Regards
Amdub

Gaspode

There is no need for that Amdublin. If you've a logical grown-up argument to put forward I'm sure you can do so without resorting to name-calling.