Summerfield estate to the Blanch centre - why no pedestrian route through the wall??

daymobrew

realworld101 wrote: »

Unless you are regularly awoken to the sounds of drunken hordes leaving the adjacent heaven nightclub thanking god for the wall

These people are going through Summerfield regardless of whether there is a pathway.

So, bad people will use the pathway. Bad people use cars to drive down Main Street to rob the bank. Should we inconvenience everyone because of the minority?
Around Riverwood we have a number of speed ramps because the minority cannot drive within the speed limit. The majority who do are inconvenienced. I used to cycle around there for a bit of training - the speed ramps have forced me to find another training location and that is very inconvenient.
We also have those annoying swing gates that are a major pain to those with buggies. All because of 2 or 3 people!! :mad:

If the Gardai did their job we wouldn't need speed ramps or swing gates.
If people had confidence in the Gardai they would have confidence that they would act on reports of the behaviour that people in Summerfield are concerned about.

PS I do not support speed ramps or swing gates - majority rules, except when it comes to anti social behaviour.

BostonB

Bikes are in the minority. So roads should be designed to give preference for cars.

Diddler1977

BostonB wrote: »

Bikes are in the minority. So roads should be designed to give preference for cars.

I don't know if I agree with this.

If we build better cycle facilities more people may be inclined to cycle. Which is a good thing imo and something to be promoted.

BTW as a side note, the other day I saw the over turned trolley at the Summerfield wall - it looked disgraceful. The respectable 40-something man also looked like he could do some damage to himself as he jumped off the wall.

BostonB

I was being ridiculous to point out the flaw in the majority always having preference.

Stark

The biggest danger is you might end up sounding like a Fine Gael councillor!

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0225/breaking74.html

But Fine Gael councillor Edie Wynne said the move would have to be given some thought. She said at 3 per cent cyclists were not very representative of modal choice in Dublin. "Ninety-seven per cent are choosing another way", she said.

Fellow Fine Gael councillor Gerry Breen said he would urge caution, remarking that numbers of cyclists in the city were one third of those who chose to walk

amdublin

amdublin wrote: »

Hi <SNIP>,

Gaspode wrote: »

There is no need for that Amdublin. If you've a logical grown-up argument to put forward I'm sure you can do so without resorting to name-calling.

But (s)he said I could call him that!!!!! :

realworld101 wrote: »

If protecting our families and property is nimbyism, than spank my ass and call me nimby.

But okay, fair enough, point taken Gaspode!

Gaspode

OK they did, but I dont think they really meant it!

If we are honest, we are all nimby in our own little way!

daymobrew

The current issue of Northside People (3 March), on page 8, mentions the FCC meeting that removed the pedestrian access from the Blanchardstown Area Plan.

In the same paragraph it reported a claim by one submission:

Residents in Summerfield already experience difficulty parking within their own estate.

Is this true? Who/what is causing this difficulty?

BostonB

I'm guessing but its probably like any other estate where drive ways were designed for 1 or two cars max, and theres an increasing number of houses with 3,4 or even 5 cars, especially if they are rented. Thus a problem of parking. Seems to be a problem all over.

Michellenman

I assume they mean multiple cars per house, maybe? Each house has space in the drive for one car and then maybe space for one car outside to share between two houses. We have two cars but our neighbours refuse to park in their drive (why is beyond me...) so parking is difficult and sometimes leads to our parking parking on the green which irritates the crap out of me, because they won't even block their unused drive Our neighbours on the other side are renting and have 4 cars, with only space for 1/2 max. So they have to park wherever is free at the time. I think I counted once and there were 2 and a half times the number of cars on our road than there were houses. If it's the same throughout the estate than that'd cause parking problems for a lot of people.

Godge

realworld101 wrote: »

as a lifetime resident of Blanchardstown , and someone directly effected by the issues at Summerfield, i feel i must make a general comment...

If protecting our families and property is nimbyism, than spank my ass and call me nimby. Unless you are regularly awoken to the sounds of drunken hordes leaving the adjacent heaven nightclub thanking god for the wall, or have been directly effected by what happens wrt to parking in private estates adjacent to facilities and transport, then really you're oppinions only carry so much weight. Google the adjacent "Budabar" for tales of the violence subjected to punters on the way home from that fine establishment, or investigate the woes of those living next to Clonsilla and Coolmine train stations who miss bin collections and are regularly inaccessible to fire brigades through outsider parking and traffic. Other issues of anti social behaviour and crime have already been covered.
As much as we appreciate the rest of the world telling us how to rearrange where we live, and barricade ourselves into our houses, in order to minimise the exercise the rest of you are forced to endure, thanks, but no thanks. These so called compromise solutions of an easily sabotageable gate or a "trial period" may sound noble in lah-lah land, but they are akin to seeing what happens if we allow the horse to make up his own mind before shutting the barn door. There is no right-of-way now and never has been... (the estate having existed before the roadway and nightclub) and the creation of one is something that would not be tolerated. And as for living my life under CCTV surveillance , i aint no Truman.
We do not want to bring the Blanchardstown centre any further into our community and lives. If any of you want to live in this commercial centre with all of its vices, there's plenty for sale in the estates adjacent. Rather than moving the goalposts on the decisions we have made on where to raise our families, perhaps reconsider your own choices?

You have made all my points for me. I don't live in lah-lah land, I live in Summerfield and am disgusted with the snobbish NIMBY attitude as displayed above and by many of my neighbours. The Residents' Association more or less bullied most people into signing their petition. Unfortunately, I was out when they called so I lost the opportunity to try and persuade them of the error of their ways. If there is a problem with Heaven, address it through the licensing laws, don't deny the rest of us the environmental benefit of a short walk to the Centre. You are stamping on the rights of the majority of Blanchardstown residents for a privileged few.

What I found most ironic was the Socialist Party campaigners calling to my door claiming credit for removing the walk. There is nothing more right-wing or traditional conservative than a gated community but this is Ireland and the politics of the lowest common demoninator or the loudest rabid voice prevails.

BostonB

"the noisy door gets the oil" thats how it works.

realworld101

in response to godge (and bostonb) I have no doubt that there are a few people currently residing in Summerfield who would want a hole in the wall. For one thing it is the Summerfield residents whose journey to the Blanch Centre would be reduced the most by the creation of an access. If we lived in a different , utopian society where people weren't murdered on their way home from these very pubs on the far side of the wall (did you check out those "wrong-place-at-the-wrong-time-way-home-from-the-budabar-murders? eg http://www.independent.ie/national-news/man-jailed-for-manslaughter-launches-tirade-in-court-against-victims-family-267995.html or http://www.independent.ie/national-news/teen-gets-eight-years-for-pub-manslaughter-105196.html ) and where people didn't think it funny to run up and down on other peoples cars, or put bottles through the windscreens or windows, and kids were safe from predators and beside busy roundabouts, then perhaps there would be some merit in it. Alas, we are stuck with the society we have, and my role as a father is to protect my family from these ills. There are two paths to follow here ... convenient consumerism or responsibility and i think i have nailed my colours to the mast. I therefore make no apologies for my stance and see no need to repeat the other reasons for this stance, all of which you have conveniently glossed over.
What you haven't made clear is whether you own or rent in the estate, and (more importantly) whether you intend to raise a family in Summerfield, spending the rest of your life here. Also unclear is whether you live on or near the effected thoroughfare or in one of the more sheltered parts of the estate (no addresses please ! ). And also not clear is why, if access to commercial centres is so important to you, why you chose not to live in one of the estates with direct access ? And regarding squeaky wheels getting the grease , i thought that that was the point of public debate, including these fora ? I attended some of the more recent public meetings about the proposed access and can stay without fear of contradiction that the mood was overwhelmingly against the proposal. If you were there you were very quiet. The feedback from the Fingal Co Co was that the proposal was removed because the balance of oppinion wrt those directly effected was overwhelmingly against. This was gleaned from the shear volume of people who took the time to right letters of objection to the proposal and is a matter of public record.
You haven't addressed any of the ills of this commercial centre expansion proposal (ie the access). Use the Licencing laws ? all "Heaven" is required to do is turn trouble makers away from their door , or throw them out if already in..... ie wash their hands of them and send them to amuse themselves or sort out their differences in the locality instead . Fingal Co Co have already stated , in an action with quasi-business-partners Green properties (who operate the centre), that they have a remit to extend nightlife at the centre (ref. joint application for blocking of Snowtopia development).
And regarding a trial period.. what level of crime and violence would be acceptable , and who would be the judge of it ? and how do you relinquish a right of way once established ?
Environment ? There are easier ways to protect the environment than bringing our community under siege, and nobody is stopping anybody from walking or cycling by the current routes, or moving to estates closer to the centre.
Right wing and left wing mentalities ? Let us not forget that it is the Commercial Centre developers who have been consistently pushing this access so that they can expand their car park into the neighbouring estates, and increase the footfall and development potential beyond the current limits which have been limited by traffic capacity. I have no doubt that the socialist party (for which i am no apologist) were responding to their mandate/ethos of allowing people to raise their families in peace, in a community atmosphere. They were supporting the will of those they spoke to (as gleaned from speaking to them), and the only organistion with a mandate to speak on behalf of the community as an entity.. the residents association.
The zeal of many commentators from beyond Summerfield (and apparently within it) to demand the rights of the public to use our isolated estate as a public highway reminds me of Drumcree and Garvaghy road. The parallels are frightening.
So we have established that the vast majority of the effected people that spoke to the residents association, attended the public meetings , signed the petitions, wrote to Fingal Council and spoke to the politicians (incl the socialist party to which you refer and fine gael who organised a sounding out meeting) are against the creation of a new access, yet somehow this vast majority are the "lowest common denominator or loudest rabid voices". mirrors please. And your solutions ? none. Just a carpet to sweep things under. You see the juicy piece of cheese, but not the trap. The rest of us have solutions...... dont create a new problem in the first place (this access is often spoken of as something that already exists), and continue to seek delivery of the promises made by the council prior to opening of the snugborough road extension and the Blanch SC Westend... ie increase the effective height of the wall in the hope that people might then take the hint.

BostonB

I'm not entirely sure why thats a response to me. I was agreeing with you. But can I say its very hard to read such a large block of text with so few paragraphs.

realworld101

:oah,so i see (on both counts). . .

Godge

realworld101 wrote: »

in response to godge (and bostonb)
.............., and my role as a father is to protect my family from these ills.
...........What you haven't made clear is whether you own or rent in the estate, and (more importantly) whether you intend to raise a family in Summerfield, spending the rest of your life here. Also unclear is whether you live on or near the effected thoroughfare or in one of the more sheltered parts of the estate (no addresses please ! ). And also not clear is why, if access to commercial centres is so important to you, why you chose not to live in one of the estates with direct access ? .............The zeal of many commentators from beyond Summerfield (and apparently within it) to demand the rights of the public to use our isolated estate as a public highway reminds me of Drumcree and Garvaghy road. The parallels are frightening.
.

You have also mentioned that you are a lifetime resident of Blanchardstown.

I take it from your post that if I am a 75-year old single spinster living half-way up Croagh Patrick that I have no right to comment on your estate.

The last time I checked, Summerfield had been taken into care by Fingal CoCo. That means the taxpayer cleans your roads, cuts your grass, repairs your paths. As this is a country (and forum) of free speech (and whether I chose to attend the modern-day equivalent of mob gatherings is irrelevant) and as I am a taxpayer, I am not going to be silenced.

In reality, I am one of the original residents of Summerfield and have brought up my family here (14 years is a long time). I am not a lifetime Blanchardstown resident but someone of my age would have had to have been born in the original village! But that is irrelevant.

Owning a house in Summerfield or renting is irrelevant and we all have equal rights. Ditto those raising families or just living the single life. Similarly, it doesn't matter which part of Summerfield I live in or whether I actually live in Summerfield, anyone affected has a right to comment.

I fully respct everyone's privacy but seeing as you have registered only to post on this thread, I wonder do you have another account or are you a one-topic poster?

I will come back to some of your other arguments in another post. This one was just addressing your dismissal of mine and others right to comment.

Gaspode

I'd ask all posters in this thread not to make this a personal thing.
this has turned out to be an interesting thread with deeply entrenched opposing sides. I don't want it degenerating into a flame war.

Argue only on what is said, and make no comments about the person who says it.
Please check the charter if you are unsure how to do this!

Godge

realworld101 wrote: »

in response to godge (and bostonb) I have no doubt that there are a few people currently residing in Summerfield who would want a hole in the wall. For one thing it is the Summerfield residents whose journey to the Blanch Centre would be reduced the most by the creation of an access. If we lived in a different , utopian society where people weren't murdered on their way home from these very pubs on the far side of the wall (did you check out those "wrong-place-at-the-wrong-time-way-home-from-the-budabar-murders? eg http://www.independent.ie/national-news/man-jailed-for-manslaughter-launches-tirade-in-court-against-victims-family-267995.html or http://www.independent.ie/national-news/teen-gets-eight-years-for-pub-manslaughter-105196.html ) and where people didn't think it funny to run up and down on other peoples cars, or put bottles through the windscreens or windows, and kids were safe from predators and beside busy roundabouts, then perhaps there would be some merit in it.......... The zeal of many commentators from beyond Summerfield (and apparently within it) to demand the rights of the public to use our isolated estate as a public highway reminds me of Drumcree and Garvaghy road. The parallels are frightening.
So we have established that the vast majority of the effected people that spoke to the residents association, attended the public meetings , signed the petitions, wrote to Fingal Council and spoke to the politicians (incl the socialist party to which you refer and fine gael who organised a sounding out meeting) are against the creation of a new access, yet somehow this vast majority are the "lowest common denominator or loudest rabid voices". mirrors please. And your solutions ? none. Just a carpet to sweep things under. You see the juicy piece of cheese, but not the trap. The rest of us have solutions...... dont create a new problem in the first place (this access is often spoken of as something that already exists), and continue to seek delivery of the promises made by the council prior to opening of the snugborough road extension and the Blanch SC Westend... ie increase the effective height of the wall in the hope that people might then take the hint.

I was one of the first residents to move into Summerfield and was part of the first battle that the Residents' Association fought. At the time, there was a proposal before Fingal CoCo supported by residents of Broadway to put a wall between the two estates and divide the green area between Broadway and the Meadow/Green in two.

All of the then residents of Summerfield, whether directly affected or not, whether buyers or renters, supported the prunciples of tolerance and open access and the proposal was eventually rejected. Unfortunately, it seems that those principles of tolerance and openness have been obliterated by time and have been replaced by intolerance and smallmindedness. If only the spirit of those days could be recreated.

Later on the green space between Broadway and Summerfield became a Friday night drinking and drug-taking spot for local teenagers. Working with the community police officers and making sure that a number of residents always rang the station when the problems started meant that the problem was dealt with over a short period. I only recount this story because I was wondering whether you had reported the incidents you mention above - putting bottles through windows and running up and down cars - to Blanchardstown Garda station or whether you are relying on hearsay, paranoia or isolated incidents. If such behaviour was occurring on a weekly basis, it could be dealt with as previous.

As for the murders, I don't see the relevance of their direct linkage with the Budabar, now closed. Someone was murdered on the Clonsilla Road outside the credit union and many have been attacked in Coolmine Woods. Given that these are the only other two walking routes to the Centre from Summerfield, maybe we would be safer if there was a gate rather than less safe.

Finally, increasing the height of the wall, so that the next child that falls off the wall, smashes his/her skull is not an option I prefer. In fact, I am sure that Fingal would not recklessly endanger our childrens' lives and thankfully that should be one example where wiser heads prevail.

BostonB

I don't get your logic. You demonstrate that the other routes have had problems, to show that this one won't? Er what?

Godge

BostonB wrote: »

I don't get your logic. You demonstrate that the other routes have had problems, to show that this one won't? Er what?

No, the point I am making is that all routes have problems. Only safe option is to stay inside. Once you step outside your door you have to face the world and its problems. Locking yourself up behind high walls is not an option.

BostonB

So you want a locked gate not a high wall. I'm sure theres a difference.

BostonB

Perhaps you should try creating a new thread again. What your asking is related to, but different to this thread. Create a new thread and put a link to it here.

Luttrell1975

BostonB wrote: »

Perhaps you should try creating a new thread again. What your asking is related to, but different to this thread. Create a new thread and put a link to it here.

What made you activate this thread again? BTW thanks, I really enjoyed writing in it after suffering that dammed wall for years.

Zaph

BostonB's post was in response to some posts that have since been removed

BostonB

That was baffling as heck. Posts and threads suddenly vanishing.

What happened with the wall. Did they open it?

Luttrell1975

BostonB wrote: »

That was baffling as heck. Posts and threads suddenly vanishing.

What happened with the wall. Did they open it?

My parents still live in there, and they may be some of the older people in the estate. They know that the wall issue is stupid. They know that 12 or 15 real busy bodies have made the wall their no1 pet project and intimidate others into signing their petition. The question is why does the issue keep coming back. And why does anyone proposing a compromise get flayed?

I think some body could write a book about it, its so Irish.

BostonB

I assume no then.

Luttrell1975

BostonB wrote: »

I assume no then.

Its still standing, just about. Dirty ugly relic of fear and suspicion. A shocking scar of bad planning system.

BostonB

Well at least you're not bitter.

SpatialPlanner

It's interesting that the issue causes such an emotional reaction in people and not just the residents of the immediate/subject area. I'm looking forward to talking to people about it.

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