Formal complaint lodged against An Taoiseach with SIPO

edanto

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/0119/breaking17.htm

Well, about time I say. The guy has no credibility in my eyes, appears to have deceived in many ways and frankly, I find it embarassing to have him as our leader.

But, what will happen with the complaint?

Committee sanctions are mild, involving salary witholding. But SIPO can make a case to the DPP, if any criminal activities are suspected.

Given the other thread about Bertie's suitability for high office in the light of the facts that are NOT under dispute, could this thread be more about the half-truths, rumours and possible stories that could come out?

Tommy T

If Judge Mahon, his two hangers on and the huge legal team all bankrolled by you and I haven't found anything illegal in Bertie's actions the Sipo are hardly going to...

oscarBravo

edanto wrote: »

Given the other thread about Bertie's suitability for high office in the light of the facts that are NOT under dispute, could this thread be more about the half-truths, rumours and possible stories that could come out?

I don't recommend it.

Tommy T wrote:

If Judge Mahon, his two hangers on and the huge legal team all bankrolled by you and I haven't found anything illegal in Bertie's actions the Sipo are hardly going to...

I'm not certain that's the remit of the SIPO.

Tommy T

oscarBravo wrote: »

I'm not certain that's the remit of the SIPO.

No. You're right...

murphaph

Tommy T wrote: »

If Judge Mahon, his two hangers on and the huge legal team all bankrolled by you and I haven't found anything illegal in Bertie's actions the Sipo are hardly going to...

Would you prefer if we didn't investigate payments to politicians at all?

Tommy T

murphaph wrote: »

Would you prefer if we didn't investigate payments to politicians at all?

Given the sinful waste of taxpayers money chasing shadows and Gilmartin's fairytales I'd close the moneypit in the morning.

If someone has issues they feel should be raised about illegal or corrupt payments to any public figures let them by all means go to the Gardai with them and allow due process take its course...

The_Minister

IIRC, all members of the Dail have until 9 months after the election to present their tax clearence certificate, or a letter explaining why it has been delayed, under the SIPO rules.
FG voted in favour of this, but are now asking for an enquiry before the deadline, which seems a bit odd.

Crash

its related to the 2002 election as opposed to this one, no? that would be my understanding of it.

Seth Brundle

Didn't someone else lodge a complaint about Bertie with SIPO in the last few weeks?
FGs complaint is in regard to the 2002 election - http://www.finegael.ie/news/index.cfm/type/details/nkey/33241/pkey/653/

mike65

About a third of TDs have not submitted tax complience certs apparently.

Mike.

murphaph

mike65 wrote: »

About a third of TDs have not submitted tax complience certs apparently.

Mike.

Well if all this episode does is make these individuals think on about their conduct it'll be a result.

The_Minister

mike65 wrote: »

About a third of TDs have not submitted tax complience certs apparently.

Mike.

As I said, they still habve 9 months

is_that_so

The_Minister wrote: »

As I said, they still have 9 months

They may do but I have no doubt there is far better PR to be gained from saying "look at me, I'm tax compliant". Given the enormous expenses that some claim they should unquestionably be in a position to become tax-compliant sooner. Seeing as we would not take on a trades person who is not tax compliant, and the fact that many such businesses highlight their tax compliance, the slow rush to address tax compliance by TDs merely adds to our cynicism about politics and politicians.

mike65

If a TD does'nt make the deadline, it would be nice to suspend his/her income until sorted.

Mike.

edanto

Tommy T wrote: »

If Judge Mahon, his two hangers on and the huge legal team all bankrolled by you and I haven't found anything illegal in Bertie's actions the Sipo are hardly going to...

mmmmk.

Where is the line between illegal and legal?

Specifically in the legislation or case law with respect to politicians accepting money.

edanto

Actually, fuck it.

3.—(1) Where in any proceedings against a person to whom this section applies for an offence under the Public Bodies Corrupt Practices Act, 1889, as amended, or the Act of 1906, as
amended, it is proved that—

(a) the person received a donation exceeding in value the relevant amount specified in the Electoral Act, 1997 , or the Local Elections (Disclosure of Donations and Expenditure) Act, 1999 , as appropriate,

(b) the person failed to disclose the donation in accordance with that Act to the Public Offices Commission or the local authority concerned as appropriate, and

(c) the donor had an interest in the person doing any act or making any omission in relation to his or her office or position or his or her principal's affairs or business,

the donation shall be deemed to have been given and received corruptly as an inducement to or reward for the person doing any act or making any omission in relation to his or her office or position or his or her principal's affairs or business unless the contrary is proved.

Reference: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/act/pub/0027/sec0003.html#sec3

Guy:Incognito

murphaph wrote: »

Would you prefer if we didn't investigate payments to politicians at all?

I would. We are spending countless millions to find out if he pocketed a few hundred grand. I know which figure I'd rather was still floating around in the economy

edanto

Floating around in the economy....

That makes me consider the metrics that we use to measure our wealth here. We use things like GDP etc - and I am grateful to successive governments that those figures have improved so dramatically!

Having said that - the post in another thread by murphaph saying that in 1978 people with CF could walk into a reserved area in St Vincents hospital immediately, whereas now they sometimes have to wait a week in A&E for a bed (picking up all manner of infections, and lest I get distracted on a tangent - it angers me that bad prioritisation of health spending means that a cf patient in Northern Ireland will live about 40% longer than their peer here) - so yes the wait for a bed is one example, but there are others, the West Link toll bridge deal that still shafts us, every day.

I see those things as symptoms that some government deals were corrupt and that activity should be shamed out of our culture. I understand that some tax laws were to attract investment, but we can't ignore the false inflation of our figures that brings - and the result that we may be better off on paper (GDP), and the realisation that some politicians shafted us with shady deals while being crafty with what they said in public.

Maybe we could use measures like 'the ratio of my average salary to the total amount I will have to pay the bank bank over the next 35 year' to guage if a government is doing well. Then we will know if the wealth that increased access to education has brought Ireland in the past 40 years is being democratically distributed amongst us or if indeed it is being creamed off by fat cats in suits.

Seth Brundle

Stekelly wrote: »

I would. We are spending countless millions to find out if he pocketed a few hundred grand. I know which figure I'd rather was still floating around in the economy

And how much of that was taken up with time wasting, etc. by several witnesses?
Had the witnesses been forthcoming with information then we would be much further on by now.

Moriarty

Stekelly wrote: »

I would. We are spending countless millions to find out if he pocketed a few hundred grand. I know which figure I'd rather was still floating around in the economy

It doesn't concern you what the alleged money was paid for either, no? That's the reason payments to politicians are so serious.

LostinBlanch

Ah here Moriarty, you can't be saying them kind of things. People would get the wrong idea.

He appointed certain people to certain boards because they were his mates, not because they gave him money. Capiche?

All right here, nothing more to see folks move on now. :cool:

Tommy T

murphaph wrote: »

Well if all this episode does is make these individuals think on about their conduct it'll be a result.

Potentially €1 Billion in costs to get TD's sort out a few of their own personal Tax issues.. Money well spent indeed

Let me guess, you're a Leftie..;)

Tommy T

Moriarty wrote: »

It doesn't concern you what the alleged money was paid for either, no? That's the reason payments to politicians are so serious.

If you or nayone else has evidence of any illegality surrounding any payments to any public figure please bring it to the Gardai instead of making me pay even more to the legal gravytrain in the Castle...

Zulu

Tommy T wrote: »

Potentially €1 Billion in costs to get TD's sort out a few of their own personal Tax issues.. Money well spent indeed

If it means worming out the crooks; getting honest leaders; improving our international reputation; creating a honest tomorrow - then yes it is worth it on my eyes.

But I can understand how some people would prefer to live in a corrupt society where bribery is rife, and the old nod-nod back handers are par for the course, coupled with the standard tax evasion from the major earners*. :rolleyes:

*although your precious tax euros won't go half as far - I'm sure you won't mind.

Tommy T

Zulu wrote: »

If it means worming out the crooks; getting honest leaders; improving our international reputation; creating a honest tomorrow - then yes it is worth it on my eyes.

But I can understand how some people would prefer to live in a corrupt society where bribery is rife, and the old nod-nod back handers are par for the course, coupled with the standard tax evasion from the major earners*. :rolleyes:

*although your precious tax euros won't go half as far - I'm sure you won't mind.

International reputation? Now thats made me laugh on this bleak monday morning

Just how many averge Joes in the rest of the world are even aware of, nevermind following, the vast goings on in the Castle?

Yet again we see the same old diatribe about bribery, dishonesty etc... If there's any evidence of such wrong doing then take it to the already existing authorities instead of funding the Barristers lavish lifestlyes while they come up with nada...

edanto

Surprisingly TommyT, the burden of proof is on the politician and donor to prove that the payment is not corrupt.

"the donation shall be deemed to have been given and received corruptly as an inducement to or reward for the person doing any act or making any omission in relation to his or her office or position or his or her principal's affairs or business unless the contrary is proved"
EDIT - Bertie's government wrote that law, so you'd think they would be familiar with it - unless - shock horror- they might be trying to misdirect us!!

As for the costs of the Tribunal - mike65 said in another thread that the tribunals overall have pulled in more than they have cost. The costs are a red herring.

Quick, look further down the list of standard FF replies and use another one!

Ah, but seriously - do you really think that the tribunals have come up with nada? Have you been on the internet/bought a newspaper lately? http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055218614

Tommy T

edanto wrote: »

As for the costs of the Tribunal - mike65 said in another thread that the tribunals overall have pulled in more than they have cost. The costs are a red herring.

Absolute baloney. There is absolutely no evidence of this at all. But maybe you know better Eh?

Care to tell us whose coughed up so far..?

Zulu

Tommy T wrote: »

International reputation? Now thats made me laugh on this bleak monday morning

Laugh it up.... and don't worry that our peers view us as a cowboy country. Especially don't consider how this may impact foreign investment at a time of economic uncertainty. Don't worry though, it won't impact you at all.

is_that_so

Tommy T wrote: »

Let me guess, you're a Leftie..;)

Is this like being a liberal in the States? If you support your party , do so, but leave out the juvenile comments. It ill beholds you as they say and undermines your "credibility" as a defender of one Bartholomew Ahern.

Tommy T

is_that_so wrote: »

Is this like being a liberal in the States? If you support your party , do so, but leave out the juvenile comments. It ill beholds you as they say and undermines your "credibility" as a defender of one Bartholomew Ahern.

Wind your neck back in dude. My comment was tongue in cheek hence the smilie at the end of the sentence.

Welcome to Irish politics where being an FF supporter puts you in league with the Devil... But we have a thick old skin...;)

Tommy T

Zulu wrote: »

Laugh it up.... and don't worry that our peers view us as a cowboy country. Especially don't consider how this may impact foreign investment at a time of economic uncertainty. Don't worry though, it won't impact you at all.

Do you really think Intel give a damn about the circus in the Castle. they're far more interested in the 20% Corporation tax that Charlie Mc introduced...