Feedback, how were you treated?

6th

Boston wrote: »

You realise a lot of you bull would have to go as well?

Yeah you and me would have to find a new hobby

6th

tallaght01 wrote: »

Boston reckons I'm a troll. I would absoloutely refute that. But in his mind he thinks that automatically gives him the right to post what I would regard as personal abuse.

Did you report his post?

Sherifu

6th

Boston wrote: »

It was meant as the one forum where by users who where wronged could have their say no matter how how dis-tasteful it was. You start mod'ing it heavily, it looses that.

Its not the Thunderdome and there is either freedom of speech on Boards or there isn't.

Boston

tallaght01 wrote: »

You see, that's part of the problem.

Boston reckons I'm a troll. I would absoloutely refute that. But in his mind he thinks that automatically gives him the right to post what I would regard as personal abuse.

That's how feedback has worked. People felt they could abuse posters if they were stupid or they were trolls. But the benchmark for judging who was a troll or who was an idiot lay with the instigator of the abuse.

That's why i think karoma's idea is pretty good.

Hmm, calling you a troll on politics would be personal slur, however calling you it here would not be.

Boston

6th wrote: »

Its not the Thunderdome and there is either freedom of speech on Boards or there isn't.

You've failed to grasp the point, it has nothing to do with freedom of speech and everything to do with being able to point and say "we allow negative criticism, and you can't say we don't".

WhiteWashMan

Ibid wrote: »

WWM-like behaviour

By wwm-like behaviour I assume you mean unbiased, fair, informative, direct, but just not customer service like in delivery?

Yeah, I agree with you for once.

Time Magazine

Nah, I mean your old behaviour.

RoundyMooney

Boston wrote: »

Well whats the ethos of this forum? I may be speaking out of turn but afair the original idea was that it should be difficult to be banned from feedback. This was the avoid the appearance of en propriety. It was meant as the one forum where by users who where wronged could have their say no matter how how dis-tasteful it was. You start mod'ing it heavily, it looses that.

I know where you're coming from. An open forum is essential.

I had another post on this, can't find it now, but the gist was:

Three fora for feedback (& community), complaint escalation, and admin requests.

The third one already exists as Helpdesk-an alternative title may suit here.

Feedback & Community to be precisely that; as in inserting links, skype, podcasts, and any issues about the site people wish to discuss i.e., we have 3,000 users yay... No hitleresque modding needed, in fact it should proceed more or less as it does now. Mooted suggestions for a forum about boards should be negated by, hopefully a place to talk about the site

Complaint escalation (title needs work) will be for any moderator etc. issues, and should be modded in order to prevent the worst excessed of sarcasm and abuse.

There will be inevitable overlap, and as such either leaving it to Smods, or appointing a mod or two to the latter two fora not to arbitrate but to move threads to their correct locations, and oversee "Feedback and Community" would be necessary. Any overlap between Helpdesk and Feedbacks is dependent on the wish of the user to have the upper echelons ear, or else open their topic to all.

All under Sys, of course...

Boston wrote: »

You realise a lot of you bull would have to go as well?

Again, Feedback & Community?

WhiteWashMan

6th wrote: »

Its not the Thunderdome and there is either freedom of speech on Boards or there isn't.

Can I make 6th a mod of something now?

seamus

RoundyMooney wrote: »

There will be inevitable overlap, and as such either leaving it to Smods, or appointing a mod or two to the latter two fora not to arbitrate but to move threads to their correct locations, and oversee "Feedback and Community" would be necessary. Any overlap between Helpdesk and Feedbacks is dependent on the wish of the user to have the upper echelons ear, or else open their topic to all.

That, I think is not a bad idea. Moving certain threads to HelpDesk would allow them to be discussed and dismissed far quicker.

Though plenty of people prefer using feedback for its "everyone gets to talk" view.

I'm also far too soft to moderate feedback. I tend to give even the craziest people more of a soapbox than others would tolerate.

And tallaght01, while you've always been adequately vocal about your dislike of how feedback works, I wouldn't call you a troll. Boston on the other hand..

WhiteWashMan

Ibid wrote: »

Nah, I mean your old behaviour.

well, ive been like this for the last couple of years.
Will you continue to damn me for what I am no longer?

WhiteWashMan

seamus wrote: »

That, I think is not a bad idea. Moving certain threads to HelpDesk would allow them to be discussed and dismissed far quicker.

Though plenty of people prefer using feedback for its "everyone gets to talk" view.

I'm also far too soft to moderate feedback. I tend to give even the craziest people more of a soapbox than others would tolerate.

And tallaght01, while you've always been adequately vocal about your dislike of how feedback works, I wouldn't call you a troll. Boston on the other hand..

why not have a complaints\feedback\whatever forum within each catagory, and let the Cmod deal with such things?

With the exception of Rec and Biz, they are all pretty fair and unbiased.
Besides, it would stop all this rubbish around people jumping on the bandwagon about 'what you did over on this other forum' etc

DeVore

If a stronger hand is what is required in Feedback, believe you me ... I can easily do that.

I have no problem with Seamus and Gordon increasing their involvement in moderating Feedback. That would be good.

None of that solves the problem of exactly WHAT we want to moderate.

Perhaps from next Monday we can start a new trial of a more restrained Feedback. Between now and then we can work on what sort of thing we want to be more restricted...

DeV.

Dub13

WhiteWashMan wrote: »

why not have a complaints\feedback\whatever forum within each catagory, and let the Cmod deal with such things?

With the exception of Rec and Biz, they are all pretty fair and unbiased.
Besides, it would stop all this rubbish around people jumping on the bandwagon about 'what you did over on this other forum' etc

This could work.

Karoma

seamus wrote: »

Though plenty of people prefer using feedback for its "everyone gets to talk" view.

And then bitch about how everyone is having a say. Protect these idiots from themselves.
If only I could think of an example to back up my theory...

DeV wrote:

None of that solves the problem of exactly WHAT we want to moderate.

For me: it's threads whining about bans or infractions specific to one user.
Really, I think they should be moved to Help Desk or best solution: new forum.
For the trial basis: Only the OP and affected moderators post in the thread.

RoundyMooney

WhiteWashMan wrote: »

why not have a complaints\feedback\whatever forum within each catagory, and let the Cmod deal with such things?

LOL at your self deprecation

I wouldn't agree with this at all, whatever about the confusion having three fora, having ten or more would be a logistical nightmare...

Seamus, cheers:)

RoundyMooney

DeVore wrote: »

If a stronger hand is what is required in Feedback, believe you me ... I can easily do that.

I have no problem with Seamus and Gordon increasing their involvement in moderating Feedback. That would be good.

None of that solves the problem of exactly WHAT we want to moderate.

Perhaps from next Monday we can start a new trial of a more restrained Feedback. Between now and then we can work on what sort of thing we want to be more restricted...

That's a step in the right direction. I still hold though, that mod complaints have no place in Feedback, and also that somewhere to shoot the breeze about the site, that is open to users is essential

/0.02

seamus

WhiteWashMan wrote: »

why not have a complaints\feedback\whatever forum within each catagory, and let the Cmod deal with such things?

With the exception of Rec and Biz, they are all pretty fair and unbiased.
Besides, it would stop all this rubbish around people jumping on the bandwagon about 'what you did over on this other forum' etc

The bulk of the threads here though involve Rec or Biz, especially AH and Politics

So I don't think a category Feedback forum would serve any purpose except to give an additional step/soapbox in the chain.
Let's not pretend here; Bull**** complaints outweigh valid complaints by about 20:1 on this forum. So inevitably a lot of complaints to the Cmod will just end up here anyway when the Cmod refuses to overturn a ban.

However, there may be some validity in formalise a dispute procedure. Perhaps Feedback gets tonnes of bull**** because people with valid complaints think that they're just going to get a pile of crap, or perhaps people just don't know how to complain and so don't bother.

I don't think we should shy away from valid complaints, far from it. But the support structure is a bit unique here because it's heavy on chaff and low on wheat.

Boston

seamus wrote: »

And tallaght01, while you've always been adequately vocal about your dislike of how feedback works, I wouldn't call you a troll. Boston on the other hand..

meh

tallaght01

seamus wrote: »

And tallaght01, while you've always been adequately vocal about your dislike of how feedback works, I wouldn't call you a troll. ..

Well, whatever I've said about feedback in the past, this thread is evidence that user feedback is certainly listened to.

Fair play to the big people at boards.ie

tallaght01

Boston wrote: »

meh

I knew you'd bring up that episode (not that this thread is about whether I'm a troll).

BUT, topically, that thread sparked a thread in feedback that illustrated how well feedback works when everyone is reasonable. I apologised to amp, we shook hands and walked away from it.

BUt if you think that backs up your assertion that I'm "a troll and have been from day one" then fair enough. I would say you should go through my posts, starting at the most recent, and see what you find in terms of "trolling".

Boston

seamus wrote: »

However, there may be some validity in formalise a dispute procedure. Perhaps Feedback gets tonnes of bull**** because people with valid complaints think that they're just going to get a pile of crap, or perhaps people just don't know how to complain and so don't bother.

I don't think we should shy away from valid complaints, far from it. But the support structure is a bit unique here because it's heavy on chaff and low on wheat.

Anyone with cop on doesn't take an issue with a moderator to a feedback because

1) It really isn't feedback
2) These things are always better handled in private
3) If they need to be handled in public help desk is far far better.

I recently directed someone who had genuine feedback to the helpdesk as I knew the reaction feedback would earn that person.

WhiteWashMan

RoundyMooney wrote: »

I wouldn't agree with this at all, whatever about the confusion having three fora, having ten or more would be a logistical nightmare...

not really, an internal type thing. Cmods look after their own catagories. Its not like they do much now as it stands

seasmus wrote:

The bulk of the threads here though involve Rec or Biz, especially AH and Politics

Actually, I dont think thats a valid fact anymore. There are few threads here that come out of AH, and the number is decreasing all the time. And if there is one, I will step in and I will make a decision on what has happened. Ive over turned some bannings, Ive upheld a lot more (becuase I think we have great mods in AH), and Ive banned some mods for being stupid.

No one can help it when someone explains what the situation is, and someone just wont take that answer and then goes off and reproduces the same argument somewhere else.
Inevitably, they will get the same answer, will disagree with it, and then the lolcats start. there are probably 5 or 6 users here that hang about feedback and just start straight in with stupid posts. Perhaps we need to ban them?
Id certainly do it.

tallaght1 wrote:

Well, whatever I've said about feedback in the past, this thread is evidence that user feedback is certainly listened to.

Thats unfair on the rest of us tbh.
There are plenty of threads here where people take on board what is happening, but its not our site to make changes.
Dont ever make the assumption that because abunch of people post cats up, that other people arent giving consideration to the point that is trying to be made. I take very seriously any points made about either the Rec or Biz catagories, and we have seen huge changes in the way these are run. If people are unhappy with how they are run now, they can simply blame the users. They have pretty much what they asked for. And its not about to change because 1 or 2 people on the site dont think its the correct way.

But we still listen, and we still strive to perfect the imperfectable.

seamus wrote:

owever, there may be some validity in formalize a dispute procedure. Perhaps Feedback gets tonnes of bull**** because people with valid complaints think that they're just going to get a pile of crap, or perhaps people just don't know how to complain and so don't bother.

I made this suggestion to the admins about 3 years ago, suggesting that an smod take on the responsibility of sorting out feedback and having a final say, instead of having constant admin intervention.

Personally I don't like the idea of the admins being seen as the be all and end all of what goes on in the daily life of boards.ie (don't take that the wrong way now).
I think this forum needs to be seen as a method of having a suggestion or an issue heard (heard, not necessarily fixed...) but too many people do not accept things if its said by anyone other than an admin. thats the problem, and its the reason why so many of these threads go past page 1 tbh.

an official voice to say yeah or nay. If its either of my categories, I just wade in and assume that my voice is that voice. If people don't accept that, then I leave them to the mercy of having an admin respond to them.
I've found that the admins very rarely respond tbh. Perhaps I'm just marvelous and the admins love me, or they figure I have it under control and don't see the need to add anything, I don't know. I'll assume its the second.

but its worth looking into.

tallaght01

WhiteWashMan wrote: »

Thats unfair on the rest of us tbh.
There are plenty of threads here where people take on board what is happening, but its not our site to make changes.
Dont ever make the assumption that because abunch of people post cats up, that other people arent giving consideration to the point that is trying to be made. I take very seriously any points made about either the Rec or Biz catagories, and we have seen huge changes in the way these are run. If people are unhappy with how they are run now, they can simply blame the users. They have pretty much what they asked for. And its not about to change because 1 or 2 people on the site dont think its the correct way.

I'm not sure what you took my post to mean, wwm.

I was really just saying that, for any complaints I may have had about feedback, there's no way now I can say that feedback isn't listened to.

I thought I was paying you guys a compliment

WhiteWashMan

you mentioned that 'fairplay o the big boys onboards'

I was merely suggesting that a lot more of us than 'the big boys' take on board wht is said here.

tallaght01

WhiteWashMan wrote: »

you mentioned that 'fairplay o the big boys onboards'

I was merely suggesting that a lot more of us than 'the big boys' take on board wht is said here.

OK, fair enough. I meant it in relation to this particular issue, though.

The fact that I would compliment the admins, doesn't mean that I'm having a go at everyone else.

BUt the point is a fair one. With all the smoke, it does seem sometimes that nobody takes notice of the issues raised. When all that is (hopefully) wiped out, then users will, with luck, realise the work some of you guys put in.

For the record, I think the vast majority of punters on here, mods or whatever or not, are good people.

Fair play to us all

Beruthiel

DeVore wrote: »

I have no problem with Seamus and Gordon increasing their involvement in moderating Feedback. That would be good..

Really?
Last time that happened, someone got a slap on the wrist.
Have the Admins changed their minds?

The Hill Billy

My 2¢...

I agree with a lot of what is being said in relation to some users being given too much of a hard time. That said, the majority of them - as in the case of the OP - haven't clearly thought their argument through or just want to rant because some Mod píssed on their chips.

While I do not post a lot in this forum I do read it very regularly & in my opinion I've seen very few instances of abuse of posters who have come here with a genuine grievance. (I've only taken the mickey out of muppets too. )

DeV mentioned earlier in this post that "we can start a new trial of a more restrained Feedback" & "we can work on what sort of thing we want to be more restricted..." - It may be just the language used, but do we really want to go down a 'restrained' or 'restricted' path in Feedback? The current free-flowing nature of this place encourages debate & that's what this forum is for. Unfortunately, it also provide some people the opportunity to be way OTT in the way in which they abuse fellow boardsies.

Rose-tinted specs here, but if posters (complainants & mods) were a tad more civil to each other - as tallaght01 suggested - you'd solve a lot of the 'fight dah powah'/'poster muppet' issues.

How that may be easily achieved? I haven't a bull's notion.

Boston

Ok, how do you deal with someone like Rozie then?