Aftermarket ABS

Anan1

BostonB wrote: »

Would they not lock up the wheels faster though? I take your point though bigger is mainly about heat.

I think any modern car should be able to lock up the wheels pretty much instantly (without ABS) - assuming the brakes to be in good condition.

BostonB wrote: »

I suppose what i should have said is that sports cars can generally stop quicker than a non sports car.

I'd say that's more down to tyres/weight/suspension. I think the bigger brakes are to withstand repeated hard applications, ie track driving.

That said, if the OP lives in very hilly terrain then you may well have a point.

Henry Ford III

This thread has descended into a farce.

1/. The brakes on almost all cars are sufficently powerful to stop them quickly.

2/. ABS can be retrofitted, but it's prohibitively expense to do so.

3/. Cadence braking is beyond the ability of most motorists, particularly in an emergency.

mickdw

Oilrig wrote: »

Anyone remember the ABS fitted to some '80's Escort/Orions? pump driven by a belt from the driveshaft...:eek:

I remember mike murphy giving away orions each sunday night on a quiz show and the promo clip showed the car driving around a tractor that came out in front of it and praised the abs on the car. Was only about 5 at the time myself.

ianobrien

If you want ABS, the whole braking system has to be changed. The only things that you could use from the old system are the front discs and the pedal. Everything else would have to be changed, along with brake pipes made up, possible ECU changes, ABS Controller fitted and a million other things.

Basically, forget it or change the car. Oh, and how would the insurance react to a change in the braking system of the car?

To improve the braking in your own car, check tyre pressures, check that shocks are in perfect working order and learn to brake. Find a quiet, private road and practice your stopping technique. Don't just stamp on the pedal, brake hard and if the wheels lock, take your foot off the pedal A SMALL BIT! After a while, you'll be used to it and it'll come naturally. If you are practising, leave your brakes cool down between runs. After a while, you'll be amazed at the difference in stopping distance.

You can't steer when the front wheels are locked, no matter what anybody says! Steering used rolling resistance of the tyres and road. If you lock the wheels, they are not rotating, and thus no steering

It's a weird feeling taking your foot off the brake pedal when the wheels are locked, but it saved me one day. I encountered an oil spill approaching a bend and I braked. The wheels locked and I couldn't steer. The car also stalled as the front wheels were locked and I couldn't get to the clutch pedal in time. I took my foot off the brake, restarted the engine, used engine braking and steered around the corner. By the time I stopped and ran back to the bend, another car had gone off because he kept his foot on the brake pedal!

By the way, you don't need bigger brakes, as bigger brakes only dissipate more heat. Brakes work by converting kinetic energy into heat. Bigger brakes mean more area for the heat to be dissipated into the atmosphere. When you "lock a wheel", you are no longer converting kinetic energy into heat with the brakes. The stopping is coming from the friction between the stationary (ie not rotating) tyre and the road. As you locked a wheel under braking, too much pressure was applied to the pedal and the result was no braking (you were stopping by tyre friction).

Bigger cars have bigger brakes in order to dissipate the heat. Heavier cars have more kinetic energy than lighter cars going at the same speed (basic physics). So, if you put bigger brakes on the Fiesta, the brakes will lock up much quicker and it'll be much harder to brake gently. You only put bigger brakes in if you are experiencing brake fade as a result of excessive heat buildup, not if you want to stop quicker.

The best and cheapest upgrade is to look at tyres, as they control the contact between the car and the road

peasant

The biggest and most important issue with braking properly is:

You hit what you look at !

Most people, when an emergency situation arises, slam on the brakes, cling on to the steering wheel and stare straight at the object they are trying to avoid ...and if they can't stop in time (with or without ABS) ...bang ...they hit that object.


ABS doesn't give you better braking, it gives you more maneuverability. But it is wasted on most people, as they just continue ploughing straight ahead, same as if their wheels were locked.

Esel

Simona1986 wrote: »

I don't see your above technique working at all when (as I was) in fifth gear (in a 1.2L car), where accelerating as hard as possible wouldn't raise the front of the car at all.

That technique (quoted below) was for large animals, not your fox! I even separated it from the other part of my post to indicate it was an aside.

That being said, your point about 5th gear acceleration not raising the front of the car is wrong. You brake hard - car dives; you release brake - car levels out; you accelerate - car dips at rear (and therefore lifts at front). I repeat - this is for an unavoidable impact with a large animal!

@Henry Ford III: Cadence braking is not hard to pick up or use. First time I used it was in an emergency stop, having read about it a few times previously. It worked.

@Peasant: Agree! Corollary is 'Look where you want to go'. Saved my ass a few times, especially on the motorbike!

esel wrote: »

For large animals (cows, horses, deer), police drivers are taught a counter-intuitive technique which could well save their life, as well as the life of any passengers.

Basically, you have braked hard but know you are going to hit the animal. What you do is stop braking and floor the throttle! This raises the front of the car substantially. You still hit the animal, but instead of it mounting the bonnet and entering the vehicle and probably killing or seriously injuring you, it is ploughed out of the way instead. You may well be injured, but hopefully not dead.

BostonB

esel wrote: »

...
That being said, your point about 5th gear acceleration not raising the front of the car is wrong. You brake hard - car dives; you release brake - car levels out; you accelerate - car dips at rear (and therefore lifts at front). I repeat - this is for an unavoidable impact with a large animal!...

I seriously doubt that it would make much different to a large animal.

Alkers

Lol I was getting at the face that putting the foot down in 5th gear after slamming on in the car 1.2L has little to no affect. Nevermind, thanks for the input, gonna just have to go practice someday in the wet I guess...

BostonB

Anan1 wrote: »

I think any modern car should be able to lock up the wheels pretty much instantly (without ABS) - assuming the brakes to be in good condition.

I'd say that's more down to tyres/weight/suspension. I think the bigger brakes are to withstand repeated hard applications, ie track driving.

That said, if the OP lives in very hilly terrain then you may well have a point.

All I know that in brake tests some cars stop much quicker than others.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfA7r8gYhl0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZk2ZrKeLdE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=080tLgt4NN4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f79EesoDj3U
http://www.nrma.com.au/pub/nrma/motor/car-research/stop_distance.shtml

stratos

I have read this thread with interest. I agree with esel. I personaly don't like abs. my own cadence braking i feel is better. However it is better on some cars than others.

My own experience is that when I swerved to avoid a stopped car ( my own fault i admit ) I ended up in the hard shoulder, there was a lot of dust and debris and I felt the abs did a bad job.

But my main trouble is with the drive over the animal bit. you should never be following a car so closley that you will hit it if it stops. THATS IT. no argument.

For my own experience I caught some movement out of the ditch and a blur. I cadence braked, the car behind me ran into the back of me and pushed me foreward a bit. the child that had ran across the ditch cleaned the dirt of my bumper as I was pushed foreward a bit by the idiot behind me after I had stopped.

very scary.

This why I hate the you should never brake for wildlife and put other people at risk. you have a split second to decide is it a pheasant or a child. If everyone is driving with due care and attention it doesn't matter. stay back be vigilant.

Esel

BostonB wrote: »

I seriously doubt that it would make much different to a large animal.

True. The animal will still probably be dead. You and your passengers, however, won't.

BostonB

esel wrote: »

True. The animal will still probably be dead. You and your passengers, however, won't.

Good luck with that. :rolleyes:

Henry Ford III

Lots more rubbish posted here again.

Cadence braking, even properly performed by the worlds best drivers, cannot achieve the stopping distances that are available to the masses with ABS systems, in normal road conditions.

Keener drivers prefer not to have some electronic aids such as ABS and ESP. They prefer to "feel" what's going on under the wheels without interference from big brother.

To achieve really good cadence braking performance requires a lot of skill, ultra quick reactions, and a well set up car. Anyone can hit the brakes and release them again. Can you do it 5 times a second or more, in an emergency though?

ianobrien

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Lots more rubbish posted here again.

Cadence braking, even properly performed by the worlds best drivers, cannot achieve the stopping distances that are available to the masses with ABS systems, in normal road conditions.

That's well proven. The early ABS system could be outperformed by expert drivers in deep snow or deep gravel but not on normal roads, but now ABS beats the best in any conditions.

Henry Ford III wrote: »

To achieve really good cadence braking performance requires a lot of skill, ultra quick reactions, and a well set up car. Anyone can hit the brakes and release them again. Can you do it 5 times a second or more, in an emergency though?

5 times a second, not a hope! I usually can do it 2 to 3 times a second.

peasant

ianobrien wrote: »

That's well proven. The early ABS system could be outperformed by expert drivers in deep snow or deep gravel but not on normal roads, but now ABS beats the best in any conditions.

bah, humbug !

On loose, deep snow or gravel the only thing that will bring the car to a stop is locked wheels.

ABS will just keep you rolling pretty much until the car runs out of momentum.

ianobrien

peasant wrote: »

bah, humbug !

On loose, deep snow or gravel the only thing that will bring the car to a stop is locked wheels.

ABS will just keep you rolling pretty much until the car runs out of momentum.

How often do ordinary people, driving ordinary cars, doing ordinary things drive on deep gravel. The reason for stopping better on gravel is due to the gravel build-up in front of the wheels, and energy being dissipated in trying to move the pile of gravel.

Yes, I have driven at 90mph on gravel, and locked wheels will stop you, except you've got no steering! (although, 90mph in a standard micra down a forest track is fun! especially with the back bouncing around)

I'd rather to have ABS and steering than locked wheels on snow, because at least I could steer. On snow, engine braking would slow you as well.

peasant

I was just refuting your rather sweeping statment of "but now ABS beats the best in any conditions" ...because it doesn't

bushy...

peasant wrote: »

bah, humbug !

On loose, deep snow or gravel the only thing that will bring the car to a stop is locked wheels.

Just turn it off under those conditions ?

stratos

I will agree with the argument abs is better possibly, because my abs has only ever cut in seriously twice and I have to admit the pulsing of the peddle surprised me for a second and I may have backed off a bit.

However I think not all abs systems are equal.

I did find the problem with one car I had was the abs would just cut in a tiny bit too soon, and was too slow to recover from the pulses. Abs will always slow you quicker than just jamming on, however in my humble experience some work better than others.

WHITE_P

x in the city wrote: »

nada

far better off flogging it and buying something else.......

personally I would never buy a car without abs.

If you have to rely on ABS to avoid having an accident then your driving skills are questionable. Ever heard of pumping the brake pedal. with a bit of practice its almost as effective.

WHITE_P

stratos wrote: »

I will agree with the argument abs is better possibly, because my abs has only ever cut in seriously twice and I have to admit the pulsing of the peddle surprised me for a second and I may have backed off a bit.

However I think not all abs systems are equal.

I did find the problem with one car I had was the abs would just cut in a tiny bit too soon, and was too slow to recover from the pulses. Abs will always slow you quicker than just jamming on, however in my humble experience some work better than others.

ABS dosen't slow you quicker, it just prevents skidding and means you don't lose steering.

Alkers

But on a wet road ABS (by not locking your wheels) will stop you much quicker than locking up the wheels and skidding to a halt, no?

WHITE_P

Simona1986 wrote: »

But on a wet road ABS (by not locking your wheels) will stop you much quicker than locking up the wheels and skidding to a halt, no?

If you brake properly in the first place you wont skid. If people had better driving skills we would not need all this electronic crap in cars today.

Alkers

WHITE_P wrote: »

If you brake properly in the first place you wont skid. If people had better driving skills we would not need all this electronic crap in cars today.

Yes, but if you slam on with ABS you will be applying the maximum possible breaking force without locking the wheels. Doing this is a bit out of the league of 99.9% of people on the roads.

WHITE_P

Simona1986 wrote: »

Yes, but if you slam on with ABS you will be applying the maximum possible breaking force without locking the wheels. Doing this is a bit out of the league of 99.9% of people on the roads.

Point taken, but should we not be trying to improve peoples driving skills, rather than giving them a false sense of security. Too many people buying cars these days think that because they are loaded with so called safety features that they will not crash, and even if they do that all these safety features will somehow save them.

With the volume of traffic on our roads these days and the fact that most road upgrades are coming years too late and taking too long to finish, people really need to improve their driving skills.

Its not that hard and if the respective bodies (RSA , Government Dept.'s) who have some input to all this were serious about bringing down the serious / fatal accident toll on our roads, they would get on with providing dedicated centres to properly teach and test peoples ability to control their cars.

It's just that in 20 odd years driving I don't think I have seen so many incidents of poor driving skills as I do typically these days, and its not just young and inexperienced drivers, most peoples standards are slipping.

Sorry rant over.

Henry Ford III

WHITE_P wrote: »

ABS dosen't slow you quicker, it just prevents skidding and means you don't lose steering.

I don't agree. ABS in normal conditions (no gravel or snow/ice) will substantially reduce stopping distances.

It's been proven many times.

Biro

Henry Ford III wrote: »

I don't agree. ABS in normal conditions (no gravel or snow/ice) will substantially reduce stopping distances.

It's been proven many times.

I agree with this, I've even done my own test with a mate, and ABS was far superior.

E92

I agree with HFIII and Biro. ABS has been shown time and time again to be safer.

And nobody could cadence brake as fast as the ABS sensor engages/disengages the brakes, and even if they could, there are so few people that can handle a car that well that for 99.9% of the public out there, ABS is much safer for them.

WHITE_P

Henry Ford III wrote: »

I don't agree. ABS in normal conditions (no gravel or snow/ice) will substantially reduce stopping distances.

It's been proven many times.

Actually your wrong it is a proven fact that it doesn't reduce stopping distance's.

See http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/Equipment/absbrakes.html

"Do cars with ABS stop more quickly than cars without? ABS is designed to help the driver maintain control of the vehicle during emergency braking situations, not make the car stop more quickly. ABS may shorten stopping distances on wet or slippery roads and many systems will shorten stopping distances on dry roads. On very soft surfaces, such as loose gravel or unpacked snow, an ABS system may actually lengthen stopping distances. In wet or slippery conditions, you should still make sure you drive carefully, always keep a safe distance behind the vehicle in front of you, and maintain a speed consistent with the road conditions."

Brings me back to my point, if we improve peoples driving skills we could reduce the carnage on our roads without have to rely on equipment which could in the future become faulty in many cars as they age resulting in otherwise perfectly useable cars having to be scrapped.

ford jedi

seems to be alot of super skilled drivers on this site,have to agree with hft111 on this one abs does works well and it may give to the extra second to make that extra swerve to save someones life or your own ,every stupid crash ive seen in ireland seems to start with imediate stamiping on the brakes then staight in to the arse of the car in front. have yet to ever see anyone make a good recovery manovre