Game piracy killing PC gaming

thelordofcheese

Maximilian wrote: »

I am here all week as it happens. Can't seem to sell any tickets for the show though....

I've never had any problems playing games on steam offline. Never once, although I have heard it happening like with you. On the whole though, I don't think its a serious problem. Honestly, if you went so far as to remove Steam entirely for the reasons stated, it does genuinely seem over the top.

Ok here we go.
Lets say i buy Hl2, i go home and i install it. I have no net connection.
Can i play Hl2?

No i can't, and thats my problem.

I wouldn't mind if it was, say, World Of Warcraft, that game is entirely online (and lets be honest, if it wasn't for the being online with other people, it'd be the worst game ever) so fair enough. However HL2 has no online components, isn't an online game at all, yet i need to be online to play it.

It is a serious problem, because it's bloody stupid and punishing legitimate customers for the crimes of a pirate. So i uninstalled it. granted it's a futile gesture, it won't change valves mind on it being the greatest thing since sliced bread, but i feel better about it.

PeakOutput

leninbenjamin wrote: »

was that directed at me?

not particularly

I said the industry needs to change it's business model

we are saying the same thing then accept you are not convinced of the ultimate affect piracy is actually having to their bottom lines which is fine.

zilog_jones

tHE vAGGABOND wrote: »

Every single person in the developed world has broadband [to some degree or another] and a large percventage of them can access one of the *millions* of torrent sites and get an entire game in an evening..

You are being very optimistic as to how many people have broadband. Even just considering PC owners, many are still surprisingly not aware of the alternatives to dial-up, and once you go 5km or so out of the big towns/cities you are highly limited in what, if any broadband is available - and satellite broadband is ridiculuously expensive, not to mention the chronic latency. Also it is the large minority of PC owners who are aware of torrents, and how to go around stealing games via such a medium.

Its a *long* way from 28.8 modems taking a week to download a game from a BBS [This BBS can only hold 20 or 30 connections at once anyway, getting stuff from IRC is slow and a right pain - where a torrent can have millions of people on the same one and its quick and dead easy]

So broadband, the WWW and bit torrent are the reasons why piracy have gone mental

Piracy has not got any more "mental" than before. In the old days, one person would buy or download a game and then give it to friends and whatever, and many floppies would be copied. Or one would pay money to get a pirated game by other means (much more prolific in the 3rd world, but there were still dodgy car boot sales and whatnot over here too).

All the proliferation of broadband has meant is that less people are making money from game piracy - this is a good thing and all, but piracy still happens. And even these days I still hear of suckers paying money for copied DVDs...

Gurgle

zilog_jones wrote: »

Piracy has not got any more "mental" than before. In the old days, one person would buy or download a game and then give it to friends and whatever, and many floppies would be copied.

In the really old days it was copied with a twin-deck tape recorder, if you were lucky enough to have such technology.
Back in the 80s I had dozens of games for the C64 - And not 1 in 10 was an original tape.

Maximilian

thelordofcheese wrote: »

Ok here we go.
Lets say i buy Hl2, i go home and i install it. I have no net connection.
Can i play Hl2?

No i can't, and thats my problem.

I wouldn't mind if it was, say, World Of Warcraft, that game is entirely online (and lets be honest, if it wasn't for the being online with other people, it'd be the worst game ever) so fair enough. However HL2 has no online components, isn't an online game at all, yet i need to be online to play it.

It is a serious problem, because it's bloody stupid and punishing legitimate customers for the crimes of a pirate. So i uninstalled it. granted it's a futile gesture, it won't change valves mind on it being the greatest thing since sliced bread, but i feel better about it.

Well, thats your view and your entitled to it but I do think that Steam, insofar as copy protection goes, is not very intrusive and far less irritating than typing in some 16 digit key which you must then store safely. Its far less irritating than some of the copy protection systems used back in the Amiga & ST days.

I'm pretty sure the boxed versions of HL2 state an internet connection is needed. The point is there's nothing underhand about it. It doesn't put you to any trouble. As copy protection systems go its one of the better ones.

MOH

L31mr0d wrote: »

The ONLY way I can see them curbing this trend of piracy is creating a cheap service that makes it easier to download games but makes the developers money. If there was a service where I could pay around €10 a month and download games from T1 servers with no caps and with no need to have a cd in the drive I would. I'd even accept if this games where altered like the free versions of FarCry and GRAW to have ads during load times. Heck I wouldn't even mind if games started using actually brands within the game. Like a soldier drinking coca cola, or civies driving nissans as long as they didn't make it camp and obvious like in the Truman show, like a soldier saying something like "Ah, do you want a cool, crisp, refreshing can of coca cola" or a civie saying "OMFG!!! ALIENS ARE INVADING, OH AND DID YOU KNOW MY NISSAN GETS 40 MILES TO THE GALLON... NOW RUUUUUNNNNN!!!!"

Euugghh ... Splinter Cell ... Airwaves ... say no more

tHE vAGGABOND wrote: »

Every single person in the developed world has broadband [to some degree or another] and a large percventage of them can access one of the *millions* of torrent sites and get an entire game in an evening..

Please tell me you're joking. If not, welcome to our planet, I'd love to visit yours sometime, where everyone has super broadband and can torrent dozens of gigs in a few hours.

kowloon

Barring satellite I can't get broadband where I live, including 3g.

Beelzebub

PeakOutput wrote: »

the death of both those industries is not inevitable but unless major changes take place in both industries they are on a slippery slope to non existence. it wont happen this year or next year but imo it will take 15-20 years at the current rate.

the simple fact of the matter is that if you download copyrighted material for free you are stealing money from someones pocket. you can say that they are big corporations that dont care about me so i dont care about them and it will have no difference to them but thats bollox tbh and your fairly naieve about the real world if you believe that. these corperations are,generally, owned by shareholders who diretly lose out if the profits drop. these same corperations directly employ hundreds of thousands of people whose jobs are put at stake if the profits drop. that is simple fact.

there are basically 2 ways to make money in this world. manufacture a product and sell it or advertise something that someone else is manufacturing to help them sell it.

I have no particular problem with people downloading as long as they understand the consequences and its stupid statements like iv quoted that annoy me. the computer game industry will not survive if the majority of or a significant portion of its target audience continues to steal its product. that is a guarantee. now the solutions to the problem are many but in its current guise its simply wont survive.

i dont particularly care about the computer game industry at the moment but i do care about the film and music industry and they are also on rocky roads at the moment due to piracy.

I don't believe that piracy is killing the music industry either.

My statements are not stupid. Show me facts, figures or studies that prove that "the majority of or a significant portion of its target audience continues to steal its product." that are not funded by the industries themselves but by independent bodies and I will give them some credence.

There are more than 2 ways to make money in this world. One of the most basic, in fact the most basic is to provide a service/skill.
I believe that the movie, music and game industries will all survive, if they have the foresight to embrace new technologies and innovate, to provide a refreshed and enticing experience for the people who keep them in business, us.
I would hope that the artists themselves and the media that they create survive and thrive more than I hope that the industries that leech off them do.

Maximilian

Piracy has been around as long as PC Games have. Complaining about it has too. What's more, predicting the death of the PC Gamimg industry due to piracy has also existed for precisely the same amount of time. This thread is nothing more than a worn out photocopy and all the arguments, for and against, have been made time and time before and I'm still looking forward to dozens of games this year.

Wash, rinse, repeat, people.

AnCapaillMor

Its pretty rampant now, i remember going to a few lans and could'nt play because i was the only one with a legit copy. i'd 2 hd's set up for games one with pirated for lansand one with legits. Doom3 was out in pirate before the game release.

the_syco

This was one of the quotes in the article:

Oblivion PC, Company of Heroes, GalCiv, and a couple other games all sold well with little to no copy protection. Yes they got pirated, but they sold well regardless, so it has a lot to do with the quality of the game. Also:

NPD chart detailing the best selling PC games in the USA for the week ending January 5:

1. Call Of Duty 4: Modern Warfare - Activision
2. World Of Warcraft - Blizzard
3. The Sims 2 Deluxe - Electronic Arts
4. World Of Warcraft: Battle Chest - Blizzard
5. World Of Warcraft: Burning Crusade - Blizzard
6. The Sims 2 Teen Style Stuff - Electronic Arts
7. The Sims 2 Bon Voyage - Electronic Arts
8. Crysis - Crytek/EA
9. Half Life 2: Episode 2 The Orange Box - Valve/EA
10. The Sims 2 Seasons - Electronic Arts

CoD4 is number 1 in the USA alone. What does he have to complain about?

B00MSTICK wrote: »

-Add padding: people arent likely to download 4GB+ games as much as a few hundred meg ones. once games come out on hddvd and bluray they can be 50gb+

People will make RIPs of them. No more padding.

PeakOutput wrote: »

i dont particularly care about the computer game industry at the moment but i do care about the film and music industry and they are also on rocky roads at the moment due to piracy.

The music industry is going strong as ever, except for the pop crap. As for the film industry, it's copping on. The screeners now have number in them, to ID the source, but it doesn't seem to be working that well. Once cinemas go digital, the sources will be ID'ed easier (ability to code each screen with it's own number, etc).

TheDoc

people really need to except its always going to happen. Thereis always someone out there breaking new copyright protections etc.

Its not going to stop...I thought that would have being obvious.


Fair play if you dont download things...your an angel...and your missing out.

I would have been very dissapointed to go by crysis without playing it first....

and a host of other games....


the most popular part of pc gaming is its online aspect....

you cant play cracked games online ( for the most part)

so everyone calm down and realise pc gaming is not going anywhere...it will be here for a long time

because....

RTS games play like pants on console :P

Ross_Mahon

The makers of the games seem to be fighting back against piracy, They will not allow the same serial numbers to play at the same time on the multiplayer, As for some single player games,once i was made go onto the site to register the game. Which can be annoying for someone without the internet and they cant play the game

tHE vAGGABOND

How about this then:

Here is the chart UK All formats [Full price]chart for last week

Now here is the PC only [Full Price] chart

FM2008 [at #1 in PC] is out on 2 or 3 platforms, and at 18 odd in All Formats..

COD4 is out on every platform known to man, and is the best selling game of 2007 [at #2 in PC chart]

Now find me another game from the PC chart in the all formats chart.. [Orange Box has sold really well on 360 - so is on the list, but quite low down]

Crysis is not a bad game at all, and is #3 in the PC chart. But is not even in the top 40 all formats..

Like it or not guys, its a simple fact that PC games do not sell as well as they used to. It is also a simple fact that PC games do not sell as well as console games.

Why else do console games sell more than PC games [on each format?]

Ross_Mahon

They are moving games that were on pc to console now, maybe because they aren't making sales and hope to on the console.

Cuddlesworth

Maximilian wrote: »

Piracy has been around as long as PC Games have. Complaining about it has too. What's more, predicting the death of the PC Gamimg industry due to piracy has also existed for precisely the same amount of time. This thread is nothing more than a worn out photocopy and all the arguments, for and against, have been made time and time before and I'm still looking forward to dozens of games this year.

Wash, rinse, repeat, people.

That argument does not hold much salt when examined deeper. The amount of time, money and manpower required to make a good game today is bordering on obscene. So when the game fails it can bankrupt the company.

Monetary concerns are what drives the market now. Hence the reason why EA is doing so well. The argument is the same, but the situation has changed.

Maximilian

krazy_8s wrote: »

That argument does not hold much salt when examined deeper. The amount of time, money and manpower required to make a good game today is bordering on obscene. So when the game fails it can bankrupt the company.

Monetary concerns are what drives the market now. Hence the reason why EA is doing so well. The argument is the same, but the situation has changed.

It may not hold salt but it holds plenty of water. I don't see what your point has to do with mine. Companies have failed in the past too viz Looking Glass. The expense of these games is why there's so much cross platform stuff now - to reduce costs. That's a different issue. Costs affect all platforms.

Yes, piracy is a serious problem but no doubt ways will be found to combat it to an extent. Does anyone really think these companies will just give up on the PC and go home? Not when theres dosh be be made.

Cuddlesworth

Maximilian wrote: »

It may not hold salt but it holds plenty of water. I don't see what your point has to do with mine. Companies have failed in the past too viz Looking Glass. The expense of these games is why there's so much cross platform stuff now - to reduce costs. That's a different issue. Costs affect all platforms.

Yes, piracy is a serious problem but no doubt ways will be found to combat it to an extent. Does anyone really think these companies will just give up on the PC and go home? Not when theres dosh be be made.

I do think much of the innovation and flexibility of the pc will be lost though due to ports. Games designed for consoles never feel right on a pc. Company's will ignore new hard-ware because of cost, they will ignore originality because of cost. They will lose gamers because of this and pc gaming will fall into a niche un-developed market.

L31mr0d

Maximilian wrote: »

Yes, piracy is a serious problem but no doubt ways will be found to combat it to an extent. Does anyone really think these companies will just give up on the PC and go home? Not when theres dosh be be made.

no they won't go home, they will go to the console. Consoles are doing a pretty good job at keeping piracy to a minimum compared to the PC. Sure piracy has been around for a long time, and developers have always had to deal with it, we aren't even saying that piracy is worse now than 20 years ago, what's being said is that if developers can make games for the secure console platform, with cheaper costs, less testing, less chances of piracy, more profits and all the benefits of the PC including online play, downloadable content, an internet browser, a media player and good hardware then WHY TAKE THE RISK developing it for PC?

I mean if I was developing a game, releasing it on the PC would be a long afterthought (like what MS did with Halo 2) once all the sales had been milked.

You only have to look at the exclusives and genres that are migrating to console now to see that the PC is fighting an uphill battle. We've already lost FPS to the console and now RTS... I mean is there any solely PC based genres left?

Maximilian

krazy_8s wrote: »

I do think much of the innovation and flexibility of the pc will be lost though due to ports. Games designed for consoles never feel right on a pc. Company's will ignore new hard-ware because of cost, they will ignore originality because of cost. They will lose gamers because of this and pc gaming will fall into a niche un-developed market.

That's my only real worry. I've already seen some brilliant games hampered if not ruined by "consolitis". Thief 3 was one where the cross-platform development really limited the game I think (still loved it though). Even Bioshock had a certain dumbed down for console feel to it. Its not such a big deal right now until PC's really pull away from the current consoles in technology.

Kiith

Maximilian wrote: »

That's my only real worry. I've already seen some brilliant games hampered if not ruined by "consolitis". Thief 3 was one where the cross-platform development really limited the game I think (still loved it though). Even Bioshock had a certain dumbed down for console feel to it. Its not such a big deal right now until PC's really pull away from the current consoles in technology.

Deus Ex 2 anyone :mad:

Maximilian

Kiith wrote: »

Deus Ex 2 anyone :mad:

That was a travesty.

Cuddlesworth

L31mr0d wrote: »

I mean is there any solely PC based genres left?

MMORG. But I can see the first company to do this well on a console making a absolute mint through subscriptions. It could also be tied into cross platform.

Kiith

krazy_8s wrote: »

MMORG. But I can see the first company to do this well on a console making a absolute mint through subscriptions. It could also be tied into cross platform.

Theres supposed to be a spy based MMO in the development for the PS3.

Cuddlesworth

Kiith wrote: »

Theres supposed to be a spy based MMO in the development for the PS3.

From what I have seen of the ps3's online system, that game will fail badly.

Gunmonkey

The problem with PC games is the massive difference in hardware specs. While a company can say the requirements of a game there can be damn sure of a system within those req's not running the game. Consoles are much easier as there is a set graphical limit, memory limit,etc. Pity Microsoft still offer the Core/ Arcade 360, so many games would be better off with the ability to use the 360 HD.

CyberGhost

IW can go plug themselves, they've released a reskinned version of the same old game for the third time now.

Not to mention the first cod is still by far the best game.

And exactly how is it killing PC industry when you need a serial to play online and that's what cod is, a good mp shooter.

This is how I usually do it, I'm only interested in games with MP so, I leech a game, play on cracked servers, if I like the game, I buy a legal copy or I don't like it I delete the game.

^ Can you really call that piracy?

L31mr0d

CyberGhost wrote: »

^ Can you really call that piracy?

eh... yes?

Its like saying I can go into a shop, just take a chocolate bar off the shelf, eat it and then if I liked it, go back and pay for it, or if I didn't like it I wouldn't pay for it.

MOH

L31mr0d wrote: »

eh... yes?

Its like saying I can go into a shop, just take a chocolate bar off the shelf, eat it and then if I liked it, go back and pay for it, or if I didn't like it I wouldn't pay for it.

Can you? Wow, I never knew that!

[edit] Can you come bail me out?

Azza

Looks like Vivendi don't have to worry about piracy at all. The WOW makers made $1.2 Billion last year vast majoirty of which came from World of Warcarfts popularity.

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6185347.html?action=convert&om_clk=latestnews&tag=latestnews;title;0

The numbers don't point to PC gaming declining for any reason.
Yes in America last year saw a 6% slump down to $911 Million from the year before in retail sales but its been counter acted by online sales according to the NPD group that monitors video game sales.
http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/50962
Several alarmist sites neglect to mention NPD's comments on digital distriubtion when talking about pc games decline sales.

The way I see PC gaming retail sales in the States made $911 million. Wow makes $1.2 billion world wide. We have no idea how much online retailing makes (no figures from Steam, EA Downloader, Ubisofts Boonty Box or other online distribution systems). Its presumble in the hundreds of millions. We have no idea how much all the other MMO's are making from subscriptions but again its safe to assume its in the hundreds of millions.

The Casual games market on the PC is worth hundreds of millions and is expected to be worth $2.3 billion by 2012
http://www.gamedaily.com/articles/features/analyzing-the-casual-explosion-of-2007/71355/?biz=1

We have no figures for how much revenue developers like EA are getting for in game advertisng either.

We have no figures for how much PC gaming made in Europe last year or other regions but would it be wrong to assume in Europe at least is comparble to the US.

Nvidia made its first billion dollar quater last year thanks primarily to sales of graphics cards and got named forbes company of the year 2007.

Intel, Nvidia, AMD/ATI, Creative and microsoft all make money out of PC gaming to various degrees all have product lines aimed at gamers.

Yes PC gaming does not make as much as consoles games but the industry is still worth seveal billion.

Its not going to die.