Tiling around bath & shower base

Cmar-Ireland

Hi all,

I'm about to start into tiling our new house. I just want to find out how best to seal around the first row of tiles on the bath and shower base.
I had intended to apply a thick bead of silicone around the base, then fit the L shaped edge trim. Once this is in place, then tile over the L trim.

Is this method correct?

Thanks

Stevie Dakota

Yes, good job, some tilers would do just tack the L shaped plastic seal on and tile from there, leaving you with woeful problems down the line. That first application of seal is crucial if you want to avoid leaks, take your time and use a good quality sealant. Only when happy move onto the strip, a thin bead on sealant under here is no harm either. With the bath fill it with water before you seal,as it usually deforms under load, creating a bigger gap at the edges.

youtheman

Agrre with Stevie.

When I tiled my shower I made the mistake of assuming the l-shaped plastic thingy would be the primary barrier. It was impossible to seal it at the corner (despite my best attempt as using a mitre box). Always a leak on the ceiling below. So before you tile use loads of sealant, then you can use the l-shaped plastic device, and it is really then only for show.

I replaced my shower base recently and it had an 'upstand' around the edge, so I could tile below the level of the upstand (if you know what I mean). But I still used the sealant between the base and the wall as the primary barrier.

With a bath it's important to remember that the weight of the bath full of water could be a few hundred kgs. So a wooden floor (upstairs) will deflect, leaving a gap between the bath and the grout or l-shaped plastic. This is another reason for using loads of sealant and not relying on the grout or l-shaped plastic.

Cmar-Ireland

Yeah, must remember to fill the bath. Is there a special sealant to use, or the regular white silicone thats available in the hardware shops?

PaulieBoy

You could use a "tanking" system, its not that expensive ( about 40 or so euro) and apply that first to the walls and down to the bath. You then tile over that.

Also, slightly cock the tiles around the bath out at a slight angle, will require an angle cut at the internal corners. It means that the tile is further out where it meets the trim, no need to have a major angle, just a slight one.

Don't get cheap silicone, pay for the good stuff!
Any good plumbing providers will have both the tanking and good silicone.

I ain't ever had a bath or shower that leaked doin the above, and I done a few :-)

Cmar-Ireland

Interested in this "tanking"...
Any links or more info. Is it a paint on system or a type of plastic sheet?

PaulieBoy wrote: »

You could use a "tanking" system, its not that expensive ( about 40 or so euro) and apply that first to the walls and down to the bath. You then tile over that.

Also, slightly cock the tiles around the bath out at a slight angle, will require an angle cut at the internal corners. It means that the tile is further out where it meets the trim, no need to have a major angle, just a slight one.

Don't get cheap silicone, pay for the good stuff!
Any good plumbing providers will have both the tanking and good silicone.

I ain't ever had a bath or shower that leaked doin the above, and I done a few :-)

beldin

One system recommended in the website www.diynot.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=30 is the BAL system. There are a number of topics on tanking here.
http://www.bal.ie/bal_products/showerkit.asp

Available in tubs and tiles but it is about 130 euro. Haven't used it myself but plan on doing it soon.
I am sure if you ask a tiling place they can sell you something. basically it is a system for sealing edges and corners , usually with mesh tape and so waterproof paint.

GreeBo

beldin wrote: »

One system recommended in the website www.diynot.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=30 is the BAL system. There are a number of topics on tanking here.
http://www.bal.ie/bal_products/showerkit.asp

Available in tubs and tiles but it is about 130 euro. Haven't used it myself but plan on doing it soon.
I am sure if you ask a tiling place they can sell you something. basically it is a system for sealing edges and corners , usually with mesh tape and so waterproof paint.

Taking is mainly used to stop water/moisture getting into basements.
Even if tanking the walls you still need to seal the bath to the wall, otherwise the water will just pool on the floor...

Daibheid

First of all I have read through every post on boards.ie on showers and there is a lot of really excellent advice on here. However my problem is a little different and using the advice on here I've come up with a number of possible corrective actions for my ensuite shower and would really appreciate some expert input on how best to fix it.

To set the scene it's installed about 18 years in a tiled 800mm square three sided plasterboard/stud wall on a wooden first floor. It's leaked a few times over the years and is leaking again. It's had a number of fixes including seal replacement, Sealux shower seal fitted -total disaster after the Dow Corning Silicon reacted with it, lower row of tiles replaced with new seal, tanking applied to existing tiles and new tiles fitted with new seal and for the last few years regular resealing with silicon. Nothing has really worked.

The cubicle is a problem because it measures 845mm square to the studs and the shower tray which is set in concrete measures 780 square. This leaves a gap of up to 22 mm between the edge of the tray and the tiles on one side and about 10mm on the other.

I'm about to get an enforced unpaid layoff before Christmas so have the time and commitment (whatever about the money!) to do whatever it takes to make it right and my options I think are:

Remove the shower door and all the existing tiles back to the plasterboard:

Replace the shower tray with an upstand tray, waterproof the plasterboard and retile down over the lip. This seems the best solution but the gaps above make me think I won't be able to bridge the gap from the plasterboard to get the tiles inside the tray lip. I also see a problem with fitting a shower door with the two side walls sharply angled in over the lower rows of tiles. I also feel the tray is now settled and may be better left undisturbed.

Second option, again remove all tiles, fill the gap between the tray edge and the plasterboard with hi quality silicon, apply 'L' seal strip and then retile.

As above but apply tanking which will have to be led on to top surface of the tray and then apply 'L' seal and retile.

I alos looked athe plastic panel approach but the corner panel to panel seal didn't impress me and sealing it onto the tray has the same problems as tiles. It's also damed expensive per panel and again might casue the problem fitting a shower door with the left and right walls tapering in to the tray.

I suspect the cubicle was designed for an 800 square tray but the builders made it too small for an 800 square tray to fit and the plumber took the easy way out and that I'd be unable to get an 800 square tray in.

If you've read this far I think you get the picture! Thanks at least for reading it and if you've experience of dealing with shower tray problems and where to get a tanking system I'd be very grateful for your advice ASAP.

Dave

GreeBo

Sounds like the butt of the problem is the gap between your tray and your walls. Any water they gets behind anything is going to miss the tray and meet your floor.

If it was me Id do the following:

1) Strip off the existing tiles
2) This is probbaly going to destroy the plasterboard so this is where the choices come in.

If you are getting a new try then get one that fits and replace the plasterboard with 12mm WBP on each wall.
You can tank the wall before tiling if you want but I would say its not 100% necessary.
Seal the tray to the wall, till the wall and then seal the tiles to the tray. Make SURE the tray is well supported and will not flex or move.

If you are not getting a new tray then replace the plasterboard with two sheets of 12mm ply. This will reduce the gap down to a total of ~8m. Grout and tiles will bridge this gap so follow the steps above for sealing the tray and the tiles. Again you need to be sure they tray is well fixed and supported to its not deforming (it might not be supported in the middle)

Then get yourself a new 800mm adjustable door and you should be good to go.

youtheman

I agree with GreenBo.

I had a similar problem, and I believe you can use the 'gap' to your advantage.

I ripped off all the old tiles and dumped the shower base. I screwed 7 mm plywood onto the stud partition, on all three faces, floor to ceiling, to try restore a nice flat finish (as the old tiles ripped off the plaster in places). Depending on the gap, you could use thicker ply.

I still had a few mm between the ply and the new shower tray for my 'DIY Tanking System'. I then got some perspex sheeting, approx 2 foot high, and I put it between the ply and the shower tray (down to the floor). This forms my impermeable membrane. I then used loads of silicone between the edge of the shower tray and the perspex. I call this my 'Primary barrier', and water would have to flow uphill 2 feet to get to the plywood (over the top of the perspex).

I then tiled as normal, down and over the lip of the upstand (make sure you leave a gap under the tiles). I then used a second bead of silicone under the bottom lip of the tiles. I call this me second barrier.

So I have 'belt and braces', two separate barriers to water getting past.

Hope this helps. Many ways to 'skin a cat', this is mine and it's still working.

Daibheid

Two excellent responses here youtheman and Greebo and much appreciated.

To anyone else reading - keep 'em coming:) there's nothing quite like hearing how people fixed these sorts of problems themselves.

Greebo can you tile onto WBP or how do you seal it first? I know poly/PVA sealers won't work behind tiles - not longterm. Also when fitting the WBP - I'm assuming screws - would they need to be stainless?

youtheman the perspex makes a lot of sense but must be hard to get tiles on to? It won't protect against grout failure and I think the stats are 10% of all grouting eventually fails. Maybe that's one in 10 grout jobs fall completely off the wall or 10% of the grout in any job is going to prove permeable. Either way I'd like to provide some resistance all the way up the wall in case any grouting lets water through.

GreeBo

Daibheid wrote: »

Two excellent responses here youtheman and Greebo and much appreciated.

To anyone else reading - keep 'em coming:) there's nothing quite like hearing how people fixed these sorts of problems themselves.

Greebo can you tile onto WBP or how do you seal it first? I know poly/PVA sealers won't work behind tiles - not longterm. Also when fitting the WBP - I'm assuming screws - would they need to be stainless?

youtheman the perspex makes a lot of sense but must be hard to get tiles on to? It won't protect against grout failure and I think the stats are 10% of all grouting eventually fails. Maybe that's one in 10 grout jobs fall completely off the wall or 10% of the grout in any job is going to prove permeable. Either way I'd like to provide some resistance all the way up the wall in case any grouting lets water through.

Any waterproofing solution needs to be floor to ceiling, especially in a shower situation.
WBP is excellent to tile directly onto, its stiff (as long as you are using at least 9mm, I find 6 is too flimsy) and gives a perfectly smooth finish.
You can just stick it to the wall using no more nails etc or as you say screw it, just make sure to countersink the screws. WBP is waterproof so you dont really need to seal it with something else on top. PVA is usless for anything like this. PVA doesnt go off it just dries, so once it gets wet again down come your tiles. Use a waterproof flexible tile adhesive and grout and you will be fine.
BTW, another option would be to get an 80x80 tray and rebate it into the wall on each side, same effect as adding two layers of ply and you dont loose any shower space.

Daibheid

Started into this job over the weekend after reading and researching plus absorbing the good advice on here.

Isn't it really annoying when you lift anything in a house and see how the original builder coughed up the cheapest solution to get him up the road with your hard-borrowed money. Imagine tiles in a shower with the adhesive applied with a float with a 25mm/1" pitch between adhesive beads!

So not so much trouble getting the old tiles off. I even dealt with the concreted in tray and got that out.

Then I find section of rotting floor board from the years of leaks before I stopped it with ugly waves of silicon. It's also made some inroads on one of the studs. My problem is the floorboard is under the stud wall, in fact two of them so is impossible to get out without taking down a wall or two which is really impracitical without destroying a lot of upstairs!

I've a dehumidifier in there since and think my only practical option is dry it all out and soak it with protim or something similar.

I'd appreciate any ideas!

BTW after deciding I should use Aquaboard or similar to line the shower before tiling no-one seems to stock it down South. I don't think Green Plasterboard is good enough - it just rots slower so any suggestions welcome. I reallly like being able to cut Aquaboard with a knife rather than the saw/space/trestles/assistant required for WBP!

shamwari

Can someone recommend where a tanking system can be purchased (around Dublin) A tile store offered me one for €150 which seems OTT :eek:

builditwell

Hi shamwari,

Best option i can think is Lucretia tiles in newcastle co dublin , the system is a paint on bucket product called dfd9 a german brand and comes with a mesh/rubber strip to be stuck to joints and painted over with tanking mix. its very cheap and very easy to apply. I think the kit you have priced is from Right price tiles which is way over the top ? just a guess. Hope this helps.

Regards
Builditwell