Sligo and Environs plan review

magnumlady

http://archives.tcm.ie/sligoweekender/2008/01/03/story34581.asp

I kept forgetting to post this.
Can we submit comments that the plan should be changed to allow the likes of Argos to come in I wonder?

It said any submissions are due in by Feb 8th, but I'm not sure if thats for businesses or members of the public.

Gillie

If I thought it would make a difference I would but I really don't think it would.

magnumlady

I sort of think the same Gillie

dingding

Submissions, which must be in by 5pm on February 8, may address any planning matter, from broad policy issues to specific types of development in identified areas. It is advisable to include a map with all submissions concerning a location or feature.
Submissions should be headed “Sligo and Environs Development Plan Review” and posted to: Anna Jones, Administrative Officer, Sligo Borough Council, City Hall, Quay Street, Sligo or Janet McNamara, Administrative Officer, Planning Section, Sligo County Council, County Hall, Riverside, Sligo. Submissions may also be e-mailed to sedp@sligoborough.ie.

Should we all email in a submission.

magnumlady

It sounds like they are looking for submissions from businesses, it is confusing though.

muffler

This is part of the public consultation process whereby the local authority makes its proposals available for public inspection and comment. They are legally obliged to do this and all comments must be submitted in writing.

The reason they ask for a map with a submission/comment is to ensure they can properly identify the particular building or area that the submission relates to. Everyone is entitled to comment on the proposed development plan - after all it will shape how the area will be planned and managed over the next 5 years. In fairness the business community will most likely have the largest number of submissions but every individual should also make their own submissions or if you are part of a community group then you should also do so.

Despite the perceived notion that it will have no relevance people should really inspect the draft plan and offer their opinions and submissions - yes it does make a difference (sometimes anyhow) so please dont sit back and leave it to someone else. Its a bit like voting in an election in a way - people tend to think that their vote wont make any difference - can you imagine what would happen if every single person adopted that approach.

magnumlady

So if we wanted to say that we wanted an Argos, would we have to submit a map of the area that we wanted it in?
I don't mind where it goes to be honest.

tuppence

muffler wrote: »

Despite the perceived notion that it will have no relevance people should really inspect the draft plan and offer their opinions and submissions - yes it does make a difference (sometimes anyhow) so please dont sit back and leave it to someone else. Its a bit like voting in an election in a way - people tend to think that their vote wont make any difference - can you imagine what would happen if every single person adopted that approach.

Totally agree, wise words. (Shockingly agreeing with you Muffler :eek:). We cant go round complaining about things if we havent at least tried to do something about it. hey is this where we can complain about the like of O Connell street and lack of developmet as public amenity , lack of Toliets, lack of parking, lack of free public festivals and regular markets, lack of disabled friendly transport.....Argos is but one aspect but its an important one on the shape/development and potential sprawl of the town wasnt it?

dingding

http://www.sligoborough.ie/media/SEDP%20Review%20Guide%20-%20full%20document%20-%20low-res%20-%2010%20December%202007.pdf

Detailed Guidance documment from Sligo Borough site.

http://www.sligoborough.ie/News/Name,7816,en.html

The press release that the article was drawn up from.

I agree with Muffler. It is important to participate.

tuppence

This is it isnt it. Havent looked at it yet and bit frightened to.
http://www.sligococo.ie/YourCouncil/Name,7913,en.html

tuppence

Snap or ding dong or something!:D

muffler

magnumlady wrote: »

So if we wanted to say that we wanted an Argos, would we have to submit a map of the area that we wanted it in?
I don't mind where it goes to be honest.

I wouldnt recommend naming a particular store or company in a submission. However you could voice your opinion on the lack of large retail outlets and maybe have a look at what areas are going to be zoned for retail business. I know there have been problems in the past with the likes of Argos (problems by not allowing them to locate there I believe). You can of course submit a map or refer to a pre-defined point on their own development map but a store like Argo would I think have to be located in an established or proposed retail park/centre so that is why its important to see what they are proposing for the various area.

There are "retail planning guidelines" issued by the DOE which the local authorities must adhere to. These guidelines stipulate for example the maximum distance that large retail stores can be from the town or city centre. It is important that any suggestion made would take into account these guidelines.

muffler

tuppence wrote: »

Totally agree, wise words. (Shockingly agreeing with you Muffler :eek:). We cant go round complaining about things if we havent at least tried to do something about it. hey is this where we can complain about the like of O Connell street and lack of developmet as public amenity , lack of Toliets, lack of parking, lack of free public festivals and regular markets, lack of disabled friendly transport.....Argos is but one aspect but its an important one on the shape/development and potential sprawl of the town wasnt it?

I think you have made a damn fine statement tuppence. As I said it is important that people make their views be known. If they dont the planners assume that everyone is happy with their proposals and hey presto you have things happening (or not happening) that you were not aware of or in agreement with.

tuppence

muffler wrote: »

. As I said it is important that people make their views be known. If they dont the planners assume that everyone is happy with their proposals and hey presto you have things happening (or not happening) that you were not aware of or in agreement with.

Its probably the kind of plan to forward to "vocal' mates as well.

il gatto

Having witnessed such a planning consultation in the past, I would suggest one is urinating in a heading diametrically opposed to the wind. Your views are heard, noted even, then ignored, because they're the planners and they know best. The Co. Co. know what your views are re:Argos. They're the same as the vast majority of Sligo people. If they had any intention of doing what those people wanted, they could have done it several years ago. This is a lip service to make people feel included and they can refer back to it when challenged about inclusiveness. If Argos are allowed to come to a site they want, the planning office will say it's because of this consultation. If they're not allowed, this consultation will never be spoken of again. It'll only serve what purpose the Co. Co. finds suitable but it won't do any good to participate unless you're an "interested perty" i.e. in a particular party or a businessman of some local standing.
It may sound cynical, but from numerous past expierences, that's the way the system works in Sligo. May do elewhere too, but I wouldn't know apart from hearsay.

tuppence

il gatto wrote: »

Having witnessed such a planning consultation in the past, I would suggest one is urinating in a heading diametrically opposed to the wind. Your views are heard, noted even, then ignored, because they're the planners and they know best. The Co. Co. know what your views are re:Argos. They're the same as the vast majority of Sligo people. If they had any intention of doing what those people wanted, they could have done it several years ago. This is a lip service to make people feel included and they can refer back to it when challenged about inclusiveness. If Argos are allowed to come to a site they want, the planning office will say it's because of this consultation. If they're not allowed, this consultation will never be spoken of again. It'll only serve what purpose the Co. Co. finds suitable but it won't do any good to participate unless you're an "interested perty" i.e. in a particular party or a businessman of some local standing.
It may sound cynical, but from numerous past expierences, that's the way the system works in Sligo. May do elewhere too, but I wouldn't know apart from hearsay.

Its not all a big conspiracy theory is it? Some of it might (might) be about some qualified people doing a job, abideing by planning restrictions, which may even be there to protect inhabitants of our county/country and of our environement. There are restrictions that they have to abide to for a reason, eg the retail guidelines, or restrictions I presume to protect green belt sites and our heritage whatever. Its about been able to monitor the job they are doing about the long term vision of Sligo as well as us having an impact to it.
Its also a way of informing ourselves surely. We can'nt relax things for a short term gain, cos its fashionable to have Argos here at the moment and tomorrow then what Ikea. If we do we need to see the impact. What kinda place would/could that make Sligo to live in? What kind of legacy might that leave to our kids to our visitors if we create a urban spawl etc.
Its the main sanctioned avenue of feeding back and whatever way you look at it, at least if you input to it they have to keep a record and it has to be transperent. The more people make submissions the more they have to take heed I would have thought, the less it can be tokenistic.
(Phew glad Il gatto decided not to go for mod, twould be crucifixon for me :eek:)

magnumlady

I think the whole problem about coming up with suggestions for the review is that most of it seems to be its who you know.
It all boils down to the fact that the Chamber of Commerce is mostly made of shopkeepers in the town.
Although the very least they could do is provide a public toilet.

il gatto

tuppence wrote: »

Its not all a big conspiracy theory is it? Some of it might (might) be about some qualified people doing a job, abideing by planning restrictions, which may even be there to protect inhabitants of our county/country and of our environement. There are restrictions that they have to abide to for a reason, eg the retail guidelines, or restrictions I presume to protect green belt sites and our heritage whatever. Its about been able to monitor the job they are doing about the long term vision of Sligo as well as us having an impact to it.
Its also a way of informing ourselves surely. We can'nt relax things for a short term gain, cos its fashionable to have Argos here at the moment and tomorrow then what Ikea. If we do we need to see the impact. What kinda place would/could that make Sligo to live in? What kind of legacy might that leave to our kids to our visitors if we create a urban spawl etc.
Its the main sanctioned avenue of feeding back and whatever way you look at it, at least if you input to it they have to keep a record and it has to be transperent. The more people make submissions the more they have to take heed I would have thought, the less it can be tokenistic.
(Phew glad Il gatto decided not to go for mod, twould be crucifixon for me :eek:)

Without being too simplistic, explain what reason they used to justify what difference having Argos would have made to Sligo and it's environs. In the broader scheme of things, being able to buy a toy/saucepan/armchir from Argos outside of the town's prescribed boundry for such things , or buying it from Toy City, Homebase or whoever makes absolutely no difference to anybody. the fact is the "interested" parties took fright at Argos and ignored the threat of the other retailers. They concentrated their pull on Argos, hence it was banned. It's a rotten system, absolutely and totally.
The Co. Co. know people's thoughts on alot of such issues, and they hide behind doing what's best for us. Argos moving into Unit 4 instead of Land of Leather would not have negatively impacted on anyone's life. The green space was built on. There was no reason for it to be done other than placate the people who matter more in Sligo.
It's not a conspiracy theory. It's just the way things work. The amount of representations will make it less tokenistic, only if those representations don't thread on some business person's or politicians toes. Otherwise, they'll be ignored.

magnumlady

il gatto wrote: »

Without being too simplistic, explain what reason they used to justify what difference having Argos would have made to Sligo and it's environs. In the broader scheme of things, being able to buy a toy/saucepan/armchir from Argos outside of the town's prescribed boundry for such things , or buying it from Toy City, Homebase or whoever makes absolutely no difference to anybody. the fact is the "interested" parties took fright at Argos and ignored the threat of the other retailers. They concentrated their pull on Argos, hence it was banned. It's a rotten system, absolutely and totally.
The Co. Co. know people's thoughts on alot of such issues, and they hide behind doing what's best for us. Argos moving into Unit 4 instead of Land of Leather would not have negatively impacted on anyone's life. The green space was built on. There was no reason for it to be done other than placate the people who matter more in Sligo.
It's not a conspiracy theory. It's just the way things work. The amount of representations will make it less tokenistic, only if those representations don't thread on some business person's or politicians toes. Otherwise, they'll be ignored.

You're damn right il gatto.

tuppence

There is a whole thread dedicated to Argos! :eek: Not to be too simplistic but if one narrows down the Sligo Environs plan to one issue to do with retailing then it would be to devalue the potential impact of the development plan for the people of Sligo. Individuals can make their voices singularly and in community groups etc on many arenas of heritage, (eg make sure that a development on lough gile doesnt happen again or try to amend it) housing (eg what about affordable housing and increasing it teh amt of it ), about public space and recreation, about accessible transportation, and yes about retail opportunities among other things.
I posted the section about retail over on the Argos thread!
I should have posted it here too, cos this is an Argos thread too. Sorry.
http://www.sligoborough.ie/media/Media,2165,en.pdf

il gatto

Do you believe there's any will in the Co. Co. to bring about proper public transport, affordable housing or public spaces in any meaningful way? Argos is just a symptom of a deep rooted apathy amongst our local polititions and civil servants. The fact that a single retailer is singled out like that is bizarre. More random is the decision to not allow a major grocery store to locate on the outskirts of town. I've yet to see another town that has outlawed this. Are we so very far advanced in Sligo? Have Sligo planners discovered something planners all over the world have not?
As an indulgence, I'll give an example of Sligo planning. The field which borders my fathers land has been granted planning permission for 10 two storey houses. My fathers land is in a scenic area, deemed a buffer zone, where no developement will take place. Except for some neighbours, who sold sites with planning, planning granted as "gap filling". Therefore the guy over the hedge can build a small housing estate, and on the other side the neighbours can perpetuate ribbon developement along our roads, while at the same time, I can't build on my family's land, even though the house would be invisable from the road and would be far less obstrusive than the 10 houses next door. There's no point coming up with these draconian measures which seemingly apply only to certain people, and allowing rampant developement elsewhere. I won't waste my time on these people, so they can look for representations from elsewhere.

tuppence

il gatto wrote: »

Do you believe there's any will in the Co. Co. to bring about proper public transport, affordable housing or public spaces in any meaningful way? Argos is just a symptom of a deep rooted apathy amongst our local polititions and civil servants. The fact that a single retailer is singled out like that is bizarre. More random is the decision to not allow a major grocery store to locate on the outskirts of town. I've yet to see another town that has outlawed this. Are we so very far advanced in Sligo? Have Sligo planners discovered something planners all over the world have not?
As an indulgence, I'll give an example of Sligo planning. The field which borders my fathers land has been granted planning permission for 10 two storey houses. My fathers land is in a scenic area, deemed a buffer zone, where no developement will take place. Except for some neighbours, who sold sites with planning, planning granted as "gap filling". Therefore the guy over the hedge can build a small housing estate, and on the other side the neighbours can perpetuate ribbon developement along our roads, while at the same time, I can't build on my family's land, even though the house would be invisable from the road and would be far less obstrusive than the 10 houses next door. There's no point coming up with these draconian measures which seemingly apply only to certain people, and allowing rampant developement elsewhere. I won't waste my time on these people, so they can look for representations from elsewhere.

There can be "a will' if the the public is chasing them enough about what matters to them on all those fronts. And of course if our public representatives councillors are "worried" enough. When is the next council election? But first you need to try and input things into the plan. I would have thought even if you dont have much trust now, its still a long term plan. If you are not in and all that. It is formal document that you can hold them too. They are a public body, we as the tax payer own them, they should be accountable to us, and therefore we should be more involved in what they do. (I know I am a hopeful idealist.)

I dont know about Argos, Heck planning isnt my thing. Perhaps they are just a high profile example for everyone else following. Are you saying that you are against this type of sequential planning for retailers? I would prefer to see Sligo develop this way myself, but am not against diversity of shopping. Perhaps the problem lies in the lack of places inside the town boundary rather than relaxing what looks like a top down government led directive anyway. Carraroe is too far out for a mixed type of shop like Argos. They are'nt banned totally are they? Just the right site hasnt come up inside the boundary? Thats were sligo co co are at fault, tehy should be faciilitating this if theres a public will, and politcal will to curb mixed development outside town boundary.
Look re the housing planning i dont know how they can get away with these things too, alot appears to be stupidity and alot of individuals messing with the system there too, and other sinister aspects. Lets face it the some developers have been let away with plenty of plight so to speak.
Anyway one thing is for sure, its somone just like you should have been at the consultations pointing out inconsistencies in planning, and putting in a submisson now too.
You still can, we wont tell.

il gatto

I went to a public consultation a few years back. A complete and utter waste of time. Only the most outrageous of their plans were not carried out in the area in question. Only the plans which had people frothing at the mouth.
You are idealistic, as am I. Dealing with local government is however, a complete and utter waste of time unless you're willing to join up a political party and even then your idealism will be beaten out of you in favour of doing a loyal supporter a good turn.
Accountable to us? Accountability doesn't mean sh1t in Ireland. Look at our political leader of the past decade, squirming on the stand in a tribunal. If he's not accountable, why expect anything better of the minnions at the bottom.
They don't want the public involved. It's an afterthought, after the fact of the Co. Co. screwing things up royally.
One last point on Argos. How is it too far out for a "mixed shop"? What does that mean? It's on the outskirts of town, much like many other Argos' around the country. The Retail park is already full of shops selling similar things. It doesn't make any sense to let furniture shops, a toy shop, an electrical shop (white goods and home entertainment), a massive home decor shop and several other random retailers, locate there and then say it's too far out for a "mixed shop" selling products, the majority of which are already on sale up there.
Sequential planning only rings true as a notion if it's consistant and it's not. They pick and choose where planning matters, making it a pointless exercise. They put a massive road through the center of town instead of a bypass. That doesn't smack of a great concern for the health of the urban community or the protection of the town center. It's what suited them at the time, like most decisions they've made. They bleat on about unsuitable shops at Carraroe bringing about negative effects on the town center. Who in their right mind has ever seen a town without a large grocery store on the outskirts? It's amazing to think they've got away with such a pointless use of power. The result is thousands of cars choking the town to get to Dunnes and Tesco. Totally counter productive. And then they try and tell us it's for our benefit? I for one feel like they've been more than negligent. They've acted in the interests of a small minority to the detriment of others. That has to be the worst thing a civil servant or an elected representative can do.

tuppence

So what are you going to do, make bad decesion making worse by letting shops sell stuff other than warehouse and bulky type stuff (my interpratation) in Carraroe cos of inconsistencies in the past. Maybe they were pulled up on the directive. (If not just by retailers with vested interest that’s not necessarily the viability of the centre)
You can’t have a free for all surely, that will certainly change the way Sligo has a potential to be. (Lonely planet seemed to think it’s got something going for it) You want to keep a vibrnat centre and this woudl nt be the way to d it imo anyway. The development at the waterfront is good; pedestrenisation of O Connell Street was a good idea for the public (not for the traffic mind) but needs to be finished. Yes the infrastructure isn’t there either for buggies, wheelchairs etc and accessibility on the streets yet but it can be and it can be pushed now perhaps. (Disability legislation hopefully will ensure that road and pavement work on the centre can be accommodating for all). Now they need to be doing more of the same with the recreational areas. What’s wrong with having for whatever reson an indigenous mixed base of shops as a start? At least its not a carbon copy of towns all round Ireland at the moment taken over by same brand shops.
Maybe because of sequential planning or entrenched views or something there my still be a chance to make Sligo a planned town.(opphs)
Accountability has to start somewhere. It may well be that Berties political career may meet an end by his own sword. That would be a good symbol for a fresh start. Anyway there is talk that the Greens pushing to reform local government. I would like to think tokenistic consultations might be a thing of the past. Until then if you haven’t got into the plan you certainly don’t have a chance on prioritising what you want getting done. (Hope)

magnumlady

But the shops in Carraroe are already selling non bulky items:
Toys, curtains, plants, packets of nails..........the list is endless.
So how is it OK for them, but not for Argos who also sell bulky goods and smaller items.
One rule for one and one for another.
When you do your weeks shopping in the supermarket it turns into a bulky item as well because of the amount of shopping you have.
It makes more sense for a supermarket to be in Carraroe then the hassle of trying to drive into town, trying to find a parking space and possibly ending up in Connaughton Road and having to try and push a trolley all the way up there. I'm waiting for the day when the trolleys will be dumped all over the place.
In fact this is already the case judging by the few I've seen in the river.

tuppence

magnumlady wrote: »

But the shops in Carraroe are already selling non bulky items:
Toys, curtains, plants, packets of nails..........the list is endless.
So how is it OK for them, but not for Argos who also sell bulky goods and smaller items.
One rule for one and one for another.
When you do your weeks shopping in the supermarket it turns into a bulky item as well because of the amount of shopping you have.
It makes more sense for a supermarket to be in Carraroe then the hassle of trying to drive into town, trying to find a parking space and possibly ending up in Connaughton Road and having to try and push a trolley all the way up there. I'm waiting for the day when the trolleys will be dumped all over the place.
In fact this is already the case judging by the few I've seen in the river.

Yes i agree there seems to inconsistencies. But placing supermarkets in places like this wold isolate non car drivers. There isnt access to this place rugularly with accessible public transport and it isnt near a high level density area within walking distance. The lack of parking places is something separate that should be pushed on anyway (even in thsi plan perhaps) imo in the centre of the town. Its shouldnt be the main reason to move the 'bread and butter' type of retailers to a type of place like Carraroe I would have thought. Antisocial behavour then again is a mine field, were trolleys disgarded are a symptom of bigger things. I dont think in many cases its from disgruntled shoppers but if it is, its still is asb.

magnumlady

Even if they put a supermarket in Carraroe there would still be ones in town to cater for people that don't have cars.
The majority of people don't live in the centre of town anyway and have to find some kind of transport to get their shopping.
Maybe one day Sligo might have internet grocery shopping.

tuppence

magnumlady wrote: »

Even if they put a supermarket in Carraroe there would still be ones in town to cater for people that don't have cars.
The majority of people don't live in the centre of town anyway and have to find some kind of transport to get their shopping.
Maybe one day Sligo might have internet grocery shopping.

But even for choice should people be segregated.
Buses tend to be heading in and out of town i reckon anyway. (bit like the national rail service all going from and through Dublin!)
Does Tescos not do internet shopping? That is bad isnt it and a wasted marketing opportunity if some of them have'nt cottoned on to it?

il gatto

tuppence wrote: »

So what are you going to do, make bad decesion making worse by letting shops sell stuff other than warehouse and bulky type stuff (my interpratation) in Carraroe cos of inconsistencies in the past. Maybe they were pulled up on the directive. (If not just by retailers with vested interest that’s not necessarily the viability of the centre)
You can’t have a free for all surely, that will certainly change the way Sligo has a potential to be. (Lonely planet seemed to think it’s got something going for it) You want to keep a vibrnat centre and this woudl nt be the way to d it imo anyway. The development at the waterfront is good; pedestrenisation of O Connell Street was a good idea for the public (not for the traffic mind) but needs to be finished. Yes the infrastructure isn’t there either for buggies, wheelchairs etc and accessibility on the streets yet but it can be and it can be pushed now perhaps. (Disability legislation hopefully will ensure that road and pavement work on the centre can be accommodating for all). Now they need to be doing more of the same with the recreational areas. What’s wrong with having for whatever reson an indigenous mixed base of shops as a start? At least its not a carbon copy of towns all round Ireland at the moment taken over by same brand shops.
Maybe because of sequential planning or entrenched views or something there my still be a chance to make Sligo a planned town.(opphs)
Accountability has to start somewhere. It may well be that Berties political career may meet an end by his own sword. That would be a good symbol for a fresh start. Anyway there is talk that the Greens pushing to reform local government. I would like to think tokenistic consultations might be a thing of the past. Until then if you haven’t got into the plan you certainly don’t have a chance on prioritising what you want getting done. (Hope)

Letting shops do what exactly? Let? Worse? What great crime has Argos and Tesco committed?
A free for all? I never suggested that. I'm all for planning, but having sweeping rules invented by the Co. Co. and Borough Council, which are pointedly adressed to individual retailers? No. I don't approve of that. I don't like having planning thrust upon me by people who ensured Sligo went for the best part of a decade with no publin toilet.
And the Green Party? They've banned one form of light bulb. It's the type you need with a dimmer switch. Oh. And they've taken another €50 a year in car tax off me. Here's to the Greens. Funny how other Green Parties around Europe have been in power for years, and yet no other country in Europe has banned the light bulb. It makes me proud to be Irish, and to have been part of this Green revolution. One type of light bulb. Where will it all end? They'll never get a vote from me again. I can do without enviromentalists blaming, and punishing financially the public for the shortcomings of government policy. We burn millions of tonnes of coal and oil for electricity? Lets tax cars even more and then ban a light bulb.
And the thought of giving more power to local government? With the corruption and ineptitude indemic to local government in this region at least, that's a scenario I don't even want to contemplate.

easkey

il gatto wrote: »

Without being too simplistic, explain what reason they used to justify what difference having Argos would have made to Sligo and it's environs. In the broader scheme of things, being able to buy a toy/saucepan/armchir from Argos outside of the town's prescribed boundry for such things , or buying it from Toy City, Homebase or whoever makes absolutely no difference to anybody. the fact is the "interested" parties took fright at Argos and ignored the threat of the other retailers. They concentrated their pull on Argos, hence it was banned. It's a rotten system, absolutely and totally.
The Co. Co. know people's thoughts on alot of such issues, and they hide behind doing what's best for us. Argos moving into Unit 4 instead of Land of Leather would not have negatively impacted on anyone's life. The green space was built on. There was no reason for it to be done other than placate the people who matter more in Sligo.
It's not a conspiracy theory. It's just the way things work. The amount of representations will make it less tokenistic, only if those representations don't thread on some business person's or politicians toes. Otherwise, they'll be ignored.

YES - YES - YES. Well said il gatto
I think we see things like this with the same eye.:cool:

tuppence

Theres a philosophy about business and management about THEM and US.
We can have an opinion that "they' manage and do not appear to be acting in our best interests. We can be uncertain at what lies in the heart of these decesions whether swaying to lobby of individual retailers or an attempt at applying what may be deemed best protocol. The inconsistency suggests that its the former. I have been giving teh Co.Co the benefit of the doubt. ( an unpopular option), I would have a preference for a consistent inner to outer planning though. Anyway, we are stuck with a system its the only one we have, we are not in a co-operative either (the Us).
But imo we are 'in between' with local government We can use the representative system as well as we can to change things.
How can we go on about the nat government and policies if we havent voted? How can we go on about local government, and have problems with how they go about their planning processes if we dont use the system thats there to at least voice it (especially if theres a perceived corruption), through the consultatation process through lobbying councillors or through becoming involved in the political process at a local level. So back to the start.
Anyone going to write a submission then?:)