Sligo and Environs plan review

muffler

Some good points have been made in this thread and I can understand il gatto's dismay at the planning process as it is far from perfect no matter where you are. But people should really try to change the system rather than fight it or take a defeatist approach by walking away from it.

As part of the local government system in this country politics and planning are intertwined and while we may not like it we have to accept unless the legislators come up with a better system. Maximize the few available opportunities that this system offers up and put your comments and submissions forward. If people are capable of making the effort of posting in this thread (which at the end of the day will count for nothing) and making their feelings known then surely its not unreasonable to ask them to make the same effort with a submission on the development plan where it will possibly count for something.

tuppence made a good point when she said that councillors should be lobbied. This is a point which in fact has a lot more significance than people realise. Just to explain - the planners will prepare a development plan and put their best efforts into it but after the public consultation process some of their proposals are amended to take into account public opinion on certain issues. When they have a "final draft" in place they then put it to a full meeting of the elected members of the council (councillors) and they (the councillors) have the power to accept, reject or amend the final draft. When everything is in order so to speak the councillors take a vote on the adoption of the plan. They put their little work shy hands up in the air and a vote of adoption is accepted.

There you have it folks. Its not the planners who bring this development plan into force for a 5 year period - it is the councillors who do so. The planners can make all the proposals and recommendations under the sun but the people who you voted for and elected at the last local elections are the people who have the final say in the matter.

My advice now is for people to make their submissions to both the planning authority and to the elected members of the council. If you are part of a group or organisation or club then invite those politicians to one of your meetings and get their backing and commitment on your own proposals. if there is a public meeting then ask the councillors to state their position to the people gathered at that meeting. They are there to represent you not themselves.

tulipandthistle

tuppence wrote: »

But even for choice should people be segregated.
Buses tend to be heading in and out of town i reckon anyway. (bit like the national rail service all going from and through Dublin!)
Does Tescos not do internet shopping? That is bad isnt it and a wasted marketing opportunity if some of them have'nt cottoned on to it?

Where I'm from Tesco provides free and regular transport to and from their stores outside the centre. Therefore non drivers will also be catered for....

tuppence

tulipandthistle wrote: »

Where I'm from Tesco provides free and regular transport to and from their stores outside the centre. Therefore non drivers will also be catered for....

Wherabout is that? Is it Ireland? Just dont recall hearing its available over here thats why I am saying. Perhaps its something they might be proposing in inaccessible sites.... (and if they arent maybe they should!). Oh and internet shopping as well.

il gatto

Many councillors (including ones who got votes from me:mad:) are busy making out that the eastern bypass is a travesty against humanity, and doing their best to scupper it, because a small group of people living near it have made a racket, and where there's a band wagon, councillors will jump. I would imagine the vast majority of the people who elected those councillors are in favour of a proper bypass, but it's de rigour to be seen to champion causes contrary to developement and, heaven forbid, infrastructure.
The process is totally beyond rectifying as it was never up to the job in the first place. You need to cut the monsters head off to stop all the wriggling. Start with accountability, decency, honesty and aptitude and effort in national politics, and then make those people take charge of bringing our local politics up to scratch. Our councillors are too busy arguing over who sits on which board to worry about doing their job. I suppose it's worth between €20,000 and €40,000 a year to play at polititions whilst holding down a full time day job in most cases, so the poor dears are all too tired and wealthy to give a fiddlers about constituents.
There is no system to work from within. Either you are one of the people with "pull" or it's wishful thinking. Only by turning up at the Ard Fheis, giving a few fellas jobs, sponsering a few trophies and building sub standard housing developements and selling them at huge profits, so Irish people find themselves in a position of any influence in politics.
It's all too hideous a thought to contemplate, but there's no point deluding ourselves into thinking our polititions gice a rats ass about what we think or whats best for us. Things trickle down, not up. Changes have to be made at the top.

muffler

Like I said earlier there are some fine points being made BUT there are a lot of other points that have nothing to do with the this thread.

Can we please stick to the topic at hand please.

easkey

il gatto wrote: »

Many councillors (including ones who got votes from me:mad:) are busy making out that the eastern bypass is a travesty against humanity, and doing their best to scupper it, because a small group of people living near it have made a racket, and where there's a band wagon, councillors will jump. I would imagine the vast majority of the people who elected those councillors are in favour of a proper bypass, but it's de rigour to be seen to champion causes contrary to developement and, heaven forbid, infrastructure.
The process is totally beyond rectifying as it was never up to the job in the first place. You need to cut the monsters head off to stop all the wriggling. Start with accountability, decency, honesty and aptitude and effort in national politics, and then make those people take charge of bringing our local politics up to scratch. Our councillors are too busy arguing over who sits on which board to worry about doing their job. I suppose it's worth between €20,000 and €40,000 a year to play at polititions whilst holding down a full time day job in most cases, so the poor dears are all too tired and wealthy to give a fiddlers about constituents.
There is no system to work from within. Either you are one of the people with "pull" or it's wishful thinking. Only by turning up at the Ard Fheis, giving a few fellas jobs, sponsering a few trophies and building sub standard housing developements and selling them at huge profits, so Irish people find themselves in a position of any influence in politics.
It's all too hideous a thought to contemplate, but there's no point deluding ourselves into thinking our polititions gice a rats ass about what we think or whats best for us. Things trickle down, not up. Changes have to be made at the top.

Again I agree with you about our councillors.
The People that are supposed to our leaders and mentors.

An old man once asked me?

“What is the definition of Honesty”

Answer: “The fear of been caught”

Our Politicians have been caught so often
They do not care anymore !!!!!!!!

tuppence

The European Environmental Agency shamed Ireland for our lack of planning and creation of urban sprawl both in our cities and our villages. Dublin is cited as developer led as opposed to planning led and shown up on how not to plan a city. Its not just a problem in Dublin but countrywide. Munich I believe is seen as been a good example of best practice, keeping development within its boundaries. Sometimes its worth listening to the planners recommendations (and best practice)set out as they may have our best interests. Maybe Sligo, still has time to learn the lesson of Dublin.
http://www.finfacts.com/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_10007490.shtml

starbelgrade

The Development Plan is a joke - colouring in a few areas on a map & allocating what each colour represents is hardly what I'd consider Town Planning.

tuppence

starbelgrade wrote: »

The Development Plan is a joke - colouring in a few areas on a map & allocating what each colour represents is hardly what I'd consider Town Planning.

Do you have problems with all plans or just this one? Lets see. What about the National Spatial Strategy? You are being flipant I hope It as a document is what shapes Sligo in the widest farmwork from retailing, to transport, to public space. Its far from game of x and o. As a public document you could have and can still (as Muffler pointed out) have influence on it. If you really have problems with it thats where to bring it.
It also means that you can shove it in the face of the council if they are not achieving goals. Its important as you know as it also being used to object to many developments. Now people may have different viewpoints on whether objections stem from being self serving or from a more informed planning perspective. But whatver is the case Sligo hadnt be ruined yet imo. There may come a time that we or our children might even be thanking the objectors! :eek: (not the begrudgers! )

il gatto

The National Spatial strategy would be a case in point.
This document is five years too late for Sligo. We look back at past decisions and think nobody was to know the outcome, but as far as I know, planning existed five years ago, and, :eek: even before that. Cramming more cars and traffic into the town center has been their modus operandi thus far.
The result of this process will either be an affirmation of their existing approach, or and aspirational wish list, none of which will be implemented properly or at all.
Unless the entire planning office and council chamber have been completely restaffed, I see no reason for optimism in this. It's not begrudgery, it's pragmatism.

GG66

Did anyone make submissions?

I can understand the cynicism as most people will assume that developers and planners get what they want. The fact is if you do not submit to the SEDP then you have point complaining when plans are formulated that you disagree with. The Council will simply say that you were consulted.

I sympathise with il_gato, you've been through the mill with the planning process, but you have to continue to fight your corner, otherwise the balance will continue to slide in favour of developers and other vested interests.

Yes the Council make very bad planning decisions often influenced heavily by developers agenda, (put a road here because I own the land). This is a fact!!
Currently a road T2 11 proposed to run from Carraroe across Cairns Hill has been included in SEDP at developers behest. The road serves no other strategic purpose other than to open up this land for development and generate profits for developers. The resulting road and development will destroy the archaeological heritage of Carns Hill which has equal significance to Carrowmore and Knocknarae.

Currently, The elderly residents near Doorly park who are currently campaigning to stop a road linking to the western link bridge say they were not consulted. Council say they were as SEDP was open for submissions, review and further submissions. Now the Council are issuing compulsary purchase orders for their gardens etc. People in their 80 & 90s are being divided by a road when before they used to walk across to each others houses for a chat..this when they should be enjoying the final years of their lives..

The only way this type of insensitive development will be curtailed is by submissions, public awareness and direct lobbying of local councillors. You can be sure developers have done their lobbying. An election in 2009 makes every councillor sensitive to the public's opinion of him and the more people that are behind a campaign the better chance it has of success.

The nature of campaigns is that most are unsuccessful!!! they require energy and committment and public opinion in their favour.

What I see as the biggest problem with such battles in Ireland is that it's always a "not in my back yard" approach. This makes it hard to win. Communities need to establish networks of support across the County, Country and outside of it. Communities supporting other communities faced with similar threat.

Apathy is the best weapon developers and vested interests have..don't let it take hold.

As for Argos, personally I couldn't care less. I've got enough rubbish that I've thrown out over the years because of poor quality. But I recognise other people should have the choice. I think the retail park at Cararroe should never have gone ahead where it did., its an eyesore on the landscape.

tuppence

GG66 wrote: »

Did anyone make submissions?

I can understand the cynicism as most people will assume that developers and planners get what they want. The fact is if you do not submit to the SEDP then you have point complaining when plans are formulated that you disagree with. The Council will simply say that you were consulted.

I sympathise with il_gato, you've been through the mill with the planning process, but you have to continue to fight your corner, otherwise the balance will continue to slide in favour of developers and other vested interests.

Yes the Council make very bad planning decisions often influenced heavily by developers agenda, (put a road here because I own the land). This is a fact!!
Currently a road T2 11 proposed to run from Carraroe across Cairns Hill has been included in SEDP at developers behest. The road serves no other strategic purpose other than to open up this land for development and generate profits for developers. The resulting road and development will destroy the archaeological heritage of Carns Hill which has equal significance to Carrowmore and Knocknarae.

Currently, The elderly residents near Doorly park who are currently campaigning to stop a road linking to the western link bridge say they were not consulted. Council say they were as SEDP was open for submissions, review and further submissions. Now the Council are issuing compulsary purchase orders for their gardens etc. People in their 80 & 90s are being divided by a road when before they used to walk across to each others houses for a chat..this when they should be enjoying the final years of their lives..

The only way this type of insensitive development will be curtailed is by submissions, public awareness and direct lobbying of local councillors. You can be sure developers have done their lobbying. An election in 2009 makes every councillor sensitive to the public's opinion of him and the more people that are behind a campaign the better chance it has of success.

The nature of campaigns is that most are unsuccessful!!! they require energy and committment and public opinion in their favour.

What I see as the biggest problem with such battles in Ireland is that it's always a "not in my back yard" approach. This makes it hard to win. Communities need to establish networks of support across the County, Country and outside of it. Communities supporting other communities faced with similar threat.

Apathy is the best weapon developers and vested interests have..don't let it take hold.

As for Argos, personally I couldn't care less. I've got enough rubbish that I've thrown out over the years because of poor quality. But I recognise other people should have the choice. I think the retail park at Cararroe should never have gone ahead where it did., its an eyesore on the landscape.

GG66, How true. Our apparent complacency bout real local issues is really concerning. Are we all so insulated that we don’t see these or expect others to be doing it? Communities are about people having things in common and in this case its Sligo. Sligo is more than a shopping hub. It should aspire for us as a community to be a decent places to live, to bring up our children, to feel proud of our heritage, (share it, and protect it) to be living vibrant places for everyone regardless of wealth or physical and mental ability. As a community we all have a vested interest that its done right. Our physical infrastructure has a huge influence on our well being. That’s been proven. Feeling like you can control your environment and aren’t a passive recipient of whatever service/policy is thrown at you is also integral to ones well-being. (called Locus of control). Its positive almost imperative (imo) to keep hopeful that you can change things. It’s the only system that’s there currently.
The other hope is that there might be change coming down the line in central government taking more of an active involvement in the local authority infrastructure. The new residential planning guidelines currently being put forward by Minster John Gormley in a case such as this, whereupon councillors would get reined in that don’t enforce top down policy. (In this case to ensure that developers provide the proper infrastructure for proposed housing) The days of lobbying in the future and unhappy alliances may be numbered. I'd like/ need to think that’s not just wishful thinking.

il gatto

A consultation of the publics views is not a new development. The same people have looked for, and received many representations on numerous planning issues in the past. Lobbying without "clout" is pleading. I wouldn't be adverse to pleading if it worked, but it doesn't.
The simple fact is, the councillors and planners who will make the final decisions are the very same as the ones who funneled traffic into the town center until it choked, the ones who couldn't site a portaloo for half a decade or more and the ones who have ensured Sligo has been found to be the filthiest town in Ireland for the past few years.
On paper, the arguments for participating in the consultation seem fair. In reality, the Co. Co. have repeatedly bent to the wishes of developers and other interested parties (Chamber of Commerce being the most villified).
Although I and members of my family have been on the wrong end of some dubious, and in one case illegal and unsustainable planning decisions, my objection to this wishy washy attempt at appeasing the public is not motivated by any sort of bitterness. However, cynicism, founded on personal experience, augmented by closely following and taking note of the approach and implementation of planning in Sligo, is perfectly natural.

GG66

The other hope is that there might be change coming down the line in central government taking more of an active involvement in the local authority infrastructure. The new residential planning guidelines currently being put forward by Minster John Gormley in a case such as this, whereupon councillors would get reined in that don’t enforce top down policy. (In this case to ensure that developers provide the proper infrastructure for proposed housing) The days of lobbying in the future and unhappy alliances may be numbered. I'd like/ need to think that’s not just wishful thinking.

This does look promising but the SEDP also refers to the proper implementation of infrastructure before planning permission for development is given. Can't testify that they apply it so enforcement by Central Government would be welcome.

On paper, the arguments for participating in the consultation seem fair. In reality, the Co. Co. have repeatedly bent to the wishes of developers and other interested parties (Chamber of Commerce being the most villified).

Agreed, I used to get very annoyed & frustrated by the way Sligo Town (City :rolleyes:) is developing, feeling powerless to make any change... when faced with the power of vested interests. It got to the point where I decide to f*** them and let them destroy it as no-one else seems to care.

The same property developers are in constant engagement with authorities and we often see scenarios where developers do land swaps or otherwise to facilitate development. "Planning" :rolleyes: is developer lead in far too many cases with questionable ethical interests by politicians (for instance, Carraroe retail Park is built on a Sligo Co. Councillors land). Everyone I've spoken to agrees that the retail park at Carraroe is an eye sore but no-one objected at the right time. IMO, the development of the retail park is on a par with the current destruction of the Tara Landscape (it destoys the landscape relationship between Knocknarea, Carrowmore and Carns Hill which are all part of the Cuil Irra Region), yet gets very little attention..

So how do we stop this or have any influence over it? Public opinion is the only weapon individuals have against an increasingly corporate political system...So rather than focus on all the negative aspects that we have problems with...

Anyone got any ideas on how can we influence public opinion to care about these things, rather than simply accept that we cannot change it??

il gatto

GG66 wrote: »

This does look promising but the SEDP also refers to the proper implementation of infrastructure before planning permission for development is given. Can't testify that they apply it so enforcement by Central Government would be welcome.



Agreed, I used to get very annoyed & frustrated by the way Sligo Town (City :rolleyes:) is developing, feeling powerless to make any change... when faced with the power of vested interests. It got to the point where I decide to f*** them and let them destroy it as no-one else seems to care.

The same property developers are in constant engagement with authorities and we often see scenarios where developers do land swaps or otherwise to facilitate development. "Planning" :rolleyes: is developer lead in far too many cases with questionable ethical interests by politicians (for instance, Carraroe retail Park is built on a Sligo Co. Councillors land). Everyone I've spoken to agrees that the retail park at Carraroe is an eye sore but no-one objected at the right time. IMO, the development of the retail park is on a par with the current destruction of the Tara Landscape (it destoys the landscape relationship between Knocknarea, Carrowmore and Carns Hill which are all part of the Cuil Irra Region), yet gets very little attention..

So how do we stop this or have any influence over it? Public opinion is the only weapon individuals have against an increasingly corporate political system...So rather than focus on all the negative aspects that we have problems with...

Anyone got any ideas on how can we influence public opinion to care about these things, rather than simply accept that we cannot change it??

The Co.Co. are only too aware of public opinion on most issues. However, seeing as the civil service is a job for life and the councillors get re-elected regardless of performance, flying in the face of public opinion makes little difference to them.
We can change it, but not by participating in a charade to back their decisions. By taking part, it gives legitimacy to what they're doing. The councillors responsible need to be ejected from their posts at the next local election. People should accept the results of litter surveys and demand an explanation. Questions need to be asked of the civil servants who don't require a mandate, and whose jobs seem secure without exception, whether they have performed or not.

muffler

il gatto wrote: »

and the councillors get re-elected regardless of performance.

il gatto wrote: »

The councillors responsible need to be ejected from their posts at the next local election.

Im lost with the contradictory statements.

GG66

il gatto wrote: »

The Co.Co. are only too aware of public opinion on most issues. However, seeing as the civil service is a job for life and the councillors get re-elected regardless of performance, flying in the face of public opinion makes little difference to them.
We can change it, but not by participating in a charade to back their decisions. By taking part, it gives legitimacy to what they're doing. The councillors responsible need to be ejected from their posts at the next local election. People should accept the results of litter surveys and demand an explanation. Questions need to be asked of the civil servants who don't require a mandate, and whose jobs seem secure without exception, whether they have performed or not.

Councillors don't get re-elected regardless of performance...we haven't had the same councillors for the last two sittings although it may seem like it.. They are very sensitive to public opinion if they feel their seat is at stake. Problem is, I don't think the planning matters that concern us are high up the agenda of most other citizens..so they don't get due attention...

So if you're not prepared to submit to the SEDP or engage in matters that gives legitimacy to what they're doing, how do you propose to raise your issues on planning, litter etc. and gain sufficient support to make a difference?

muffler

GG66 wrote: »

Councillors don't get re-elected regardless of performance...we haven't had the same councillors for the last two sittings although it may seem like it.. They are very sensitive to public opinion if they feel their seat is at stake. Problem is, I don't think the planning matters that concern us are high up the agenda of most other citizens..so they don't get due attention...

So if you're not prepared to submit to the SEDP or engage in matters that gives legitimacy to what they're doing, how do you propose to raise your issues on planning, litter etc. and gain sufficient support to make a difference?

Have to agree with that. I said in an earlier post that people shouldn't adopt a defeatist attitude. Its great that it can be debated here where at the end of the day it serves no purpose what so ever. But if people want change then they must be prepared to make that change themselves whether it be by making submissions on the development plan or voting for a different candidate at the next Council elections

il gatto

muffler wrote: »

Im lost with the contradictory statements.

How so?I said they get re-elected reagrdless of performance. I then said they need to be ejected. The first statement is the reality. The second my view on what should happen.
GG66, many of the councillors currenty holding seats have been there for many years. There is a turnover of a percentage of seats, often filled by clones of what went before. Some councillors are very good, but as a collective, they have performed abysmally.
It's not defeatist to suggest that the first step to bringing about proper local government is to replace the current incumbants. It's my opinion that there is no point in taking part in a process with the present council, unless they have had a road to Demascus style conversion. Rest assured, I will be voting for those I see as honest, hard working and scrupolous, as I have done at every election, rather than towing any party line.
I don't propose to "gain sufficient support" for anything. We elect representatives to campaign on these things. It seems to be too much to expect for them to do their jobs properly.

easkey

Quote:
Originally Posted by il gatto
and the councillors get re-elected regardless of performance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by il gatto
The councillors responsible need to be ejected from their posts at the next local election.

muffler wrote: »

Im lost with the contradictory statements.

I see exactly what he is saying!!!!!!!!!

“My Father voted for F? and my grandfather voted F?
so I will vote for F?”

Sheep leading sheep ---
Irish Democracy at work!!!

I agree with u il gatto

tuppence

il gatto wrote: »

How so?I said they get re-elected reagrdless of performance. I then said they need to be ejected. The first statement is the reality. The second my view on what should happen.
GG66, many of the councillors currenty holding seats have been there for many years. There is a turnover of a percentage of seats, often filled by clones of what went before. Some councillors are very good, but as a collective, they have performed abysmally.
It's not defeatist to suggest that the first step to bringing about proper local government is to replace the current incumbants. It's my opinion that there is no point in taking part in a process with the present council, unless they have had a road to Demascus style conversion. Rest assured, I will be voting for those I see as honest, hard working and scrupolous, as I have done at every election, rather than towing any party line.
I don't propose to "gain sufficient support" for anything. We elect representatives to campaign on these things. It seems to be too much to expect for them to do their jobs properly.

Is it not more of a fluid/symbiotic process than just electing people that will campaign on our issues or the most interesting manifesto. The public and interest groups feed them too (like sheep even!) about what are the topical issues.
Would it not be just the time to take part in dialogue with the present council, as its pre election. Its just the time they may listen.

The other aspect in relation to what GG66 about issues of concern raised. For me its how some things get so much media attention and some don't? Why aren’t responsible journalists picking up of the likes of Cairns Hill as you have mentioned from the development plan? I havent heard a thing. ( I think I have heard reference to the situation re the bridge but is that just because again because Cllr Bree is involved. Am I right?)

I suppose one way to go is. Now correct me if I am wrong its just an idea!
Use the formal consultation process as you can. Following that mobilise or at least use the doorstep to lobby councillors on these issues now and pre election. (Choose the ones you feel are going to run with things.). Grap as much media attention as you can, lobby journalists write letters etc. And for the SE Plan Review this doesnt seem like the final option. Minister Gormley got involved in another Development plan in at least one case and used his powers to reject aspects as being against central government policy.
So it looks like its also worth lobbying the Minister too!
http://www.environ.ie/en/DevelopmentandHousing/PlanningDevelopment/Planning/News/MainBody,14839,en.htm

Hem Muffler? This is your area isnt it? :eek:
*Awaits feedback*

GG66

It's my opinion that there is no point in taking part in a process with the present council, unless they have had a road to Demascus style conversion. Rest assured, I will be voting for those I see as honest, hard working and scrupolous, as I have done at every election, rather than towing any party line.
I don't propose to "gain sufficient support" for anything. We elect representatives to campaign on these things. It seems to be too much to expect for them to do their jobs properly.

I agree that if they're not up to the job then get rid of them but if you vote for a representative and leave it at that then you can quite simply forget about influencing change. A councillor is elected by thousands of votes and is then influenced by those consitutents (including developers) who constantly raise issues with him/her and influence others to do the same. Your vote doesn't register a shopping list of issues that the councillor must address or campaign for. I just realised the above may sound patronising, its not intended to but trying to reinforce the fact that if you don't make submissions and lobby (as painful as that experience might be) and get as many other people as you can to do the same you won't make any progress. It seems a shame because you certainly seem to have a passion for it..

The other aspect in relation to what GG66 about issues of concern raised. For me its how some things get so much media attention and some don't? Why aren’t responsible journalists picking up of the likes of Cairns Hill as you have mentioned from the development plan? I havent heard a thing. ( I think I have heard reference to the situation re the bridge but is that just because again because Cllr Bree is involved. Am I right?)

There are quite probably a lot of things on the SEDP that are not being picked up because most people in Sligo choose to ignore it and then seem surprised when it occurs. Cairns Hill will be addressed through the SEDP and more...

I suppose one way to go is. Now correct me if I am wrong its just an idea!
Use the formal consultation process as you can. Following that mobilise or at least use the doorstep to lobby councillors on these issues now and pre election. (Choose the ones you feel are going to run with things.). Grap as much media attention as you can, lobby journalists write letters etc. And for the SE Plan Review this doesnt seem like the final option. Minister Gormley got involved in another Development plan in at least one case and used his powers to reject aspects as being against central government policy.

That's the general gist of it. Public support is the key to success with any campaign. Getting people to care about an issue and motivate them to lobby and raise awareness is essential...Going it alone will lead to frustration, burn out and the dreaded apathy

Its great that it can be debated here where at the end of the day it serves no purpose what so ever. But if people want change then they must be prepared to make that change themselves whether it be by making submissions on the development plan or voting for a different candidate at the next Council elections

I've been involved in a few web based campaigns and while it may be easy to raise numbers online in terms of petitions signed etc. it's a different story when trying to mobilise people on the ground. Howard Deans campaign in the states is an example. He raise unprecedented amounts of money and support online but when it came to people getting off their asses and voting for him it didn't materialise. Still the web provides an incredible method of getting the message out and mobilising large numbers very quickly...if it can be transferred to action on the ground then it can be extremely powerful

il gatto

You're right, it does sound patronising. I have not stated I intend to sit on my hands and expect councillors to read my mind on local planning issues. But there is a fundemental problem when the local population spends so much time campaigning against the people they have elected to "represent" them. Furthermore, the civil servants are employed by the state, using public monies, to serve the people. It's my contention that the current crop of councillors and civil servants have shown themselves to be inept, and more worryingly, to be consistantly in support of developers and businessmen, rather than their electors.
What I stated was that people are legitimising a corrupt and deficient system by accepting and partaking in a process which, true to form with these things in Sligo, will yield very few results.
The first step is to have a clearout of people who have shown themselves to be inadequate and/or operating in a fashion contrary to the public good. After that point, we should not only participate, but also have some confidence that our participation will have an impact. The current sorry state of local government, sadly, operates to the benefit of a select few, than the people their existence, and wages, are due to.

muffler

tuppence wrote: »

Hem Muffler? This is your area isnt it? :eek:
*Awaits feedback*

Nah, Im a Donegal man

GG66

il gatto wrote: »

You're right, it does sound patronising. I have not stated I intend to sit on my hands and expect councillors to read my mind on local planning issues. But there is a fundemental problem when the local population spends so much time campaigning against the people they have elected to "represent" them. Furthermore, the civil servants are employed by the state, using public monies, to serve the people. It's my contention that the current crop of councillors and civil servants have shown themselves to be inept, and more worryingly, to be consistantly in support of developers and businessmen, rather than their electors.
What I stated was that people are legitimising a corrupt and deficient system by accepting and partaking in a process which, true to form with these things in Sligo, will yield very few results.
The first step is to have a clearout of people who have shown themselves to be inadequate and/or operating in a fashion contrary to the public good. After that point, we should not only participate, but also have some confidence that our participation will have an impact. The current sorry state of local government, sadly, operates to the benefit of a select few, than the people their existence, and wages, are due to.

Thing is the local population does not spend that much time campaigning against those they elected, most of them don't bother or only get involved when its in their back yard...and then usually when it's too late.

I'm in full agreement that local planning is in far too many cases developer lead. In effect most of the time objections to local planning applications are really only submitted in order to get a right to appeal to An Bord Pleanala who have a more objective view. If you don't make submissions at a local level then they can't be considered....

Similarly a submission to the SEDP paves the way for deeper engagement down the line. While the system may be deficient and the planning process imperfect I can't see any method of having an effect outside this system.

So while I can understand a disenchantment with the process and others apathy towards getting involved in it....I think that opting out of it only leads to one winner - Developers & other vested interests who submit and lobby

tuppence

il gatto wrote: »

You're right, it does sound patronising. I have not stated I intend to sit on my hands and expect councillors to read my mind on local planning issues. But there is a fundemental problem when the local population spends so much time campaigning against the people they have elected to "represent" them. Furthermore, the civil servants are employed by the state, using public monies, to serve the people. It's my contention that the current crop of councillors and civil servants have shown themselves to be inept, and more worryingly, to be consistantly in support of developers and businessmen, rather than their electors.
What I stated was that people are legitimising a corrupt and deficient system by accepting and partaking in a process which, true to form with these things in Sligo, will yield very few results.
The first step is to have a clearout of people who have shown themselves to be inadequate and/or operating in a fashion contrary to the public good. After that point, we should not only participate, but also have some confidence that our participation will have an impact. The current sorry state of local government, sadly, operates to the benefit of a select few, than the people their existence, and wages, are due to.

I am sorry Il gatto arent you fundamentally saying that the system is rubbish, so people should opt out until it changes?
That to me sounds more painful then sitting on your hands. Its more like impaling yourself on your own principals!
It presupposes theres no chance of change in the interim before the local elections. It presupposes that everyone of those councillors and civil servants are useless. It presupposes that theres no chance of top down change.
For a start we dont have control over the civil servants but we do if we vote in mass for good councillors. (I am sure civil servants have a performance system going on in there, let them get on with it. Yes but make sure they dont get a pay rise unless they are doing their jobs.) We already have a planning tribunal, I am sure there will be pertinent findings for reform there for the locla authorites. We have a proactive environment Minister that has promised reform.

Again, for now its the only system thats there. And yes, you are right there is an injustice that the power of the developer has appeared to outweigh the local populace for so long. Yes people have more to do they 'chase ' those who should represent them. Its always the same ones doing it if people decide to usurp responsibility as conscientious objectors!

With knowledge comes power and all that. If people are aware of the issues then they have power to elect these officials that are showing themselves up for doing their jobs or not . If people are made aware of issues then they can tackle councillors at the door step as well. Look, we have too much to lose by "opting out" and being passive recepients of what 'they' and who they have the ear of, then decide for us. Because that is fundamentally what you are advocating by stepping out of the 'process". The "fruits" of the process will still be there potentially after the current crop of councillors are gone after the elections in 2009.
People have also more to be doing then analysing big documents. We are'nt all experts in every field but we would have a right to be briefed.
I really think people just need clear information of what the document could mean to them and other sectors of Sligo. Thats were community leaders could be dissmenating information on what it could mean. For a start theres organsiations out there that have made summissions, perhaps the disability sector on the transport or community section, An Taisce or similar on environment. (And If they didnt why didnt they?). Some of these arguments for and against the plan should be let into the public domain. Thats really where they should be anyway and start the debate from there.

GG66 do you want to post up a thread on Cairns Hill.

il gatto

I had a big, long post arguing my point and a rebuttal of the inference that I had opted out of participating in local politics and planning issues. I then proceded to list many of the councillors and planners failings. Then I noticed I had loads of unread pms. Not getting many pms, I proceded to read and answer them, thereby wiping my post. Doh!:o Suffice to say, we will not reach an agreement on this.:)

tuppence

il gatto wrote: »

I had a big, long post arguing my point and a rebuttal of the inference that I had opted out of participating in local politics and planning issues. I then proceded to list many of the councillors and planners failings. Then I noticed I had loads of unread pms. Not getting many pms, I proceded to read and answer them, thereby wiping my post. Doh!:o Suffice to say, we will not reach an agreement on this.:)

Phew! I was getting worried about a rebuttal! Perhaps this Pm business could be a strategy to sidetract you for future reference. :D
Dont worry we will have you fitted out again with a placard before you know where you are!
"Down with that sort of thing!"
Suits you!

GG66

il gatto wrote: »

I had a big, long post arguing my point and a rebuttal of the inference that I had opted out of participating in local politics and planning issues. I then proceded to list many of the councillors and planners failings. Then I noticed I had loads of unread pms. Not getting many pms, I proceded to read and answer them, thereby wiping my post. Doh!:o Suffice to say, we will not reach an agreement on this.:)

I think most of the posts here are in broad agreement that planning process is not perfect and citizens deserve better. Can't see any need to continue to disagree as we're simply wasting energy that could be best directed elsewhere . I expect this won't be the last post about planning in Sligo..