More unrest in Aer Lingus

FlutterinBantam

I see in the paper that cabin crew in Aer Lingus are rattling sabres over proposed cost saving measures.

2008 has hardly started and already talks of industrial action at EI.

What's the betting it will rear up its head around Paddy's day and Easter,to

ensure the traveling public are put under pressure yet again.

Public are well and truly p1ssed off with this shower.

Muggy Dev

I see David Begg has been appointed to the Aer Lingus board.

http://www.rte.ie/business/2008/0129/aerlingus.html

:eek:

FlutterinBantam

Very interesting.

In fairness Begg is one of the more reasonable union types.

Should be interesting between him and North County Jack.

Tenger

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

I see in the paper that cabin crew in Aer Lingus are rattling sabres over proposed cost saving measures.

2008 has hardly started and already talks of industrial action at EI.
QUOTE]

So far no mention of industrial action by Cabin crew. Aer lingus is withholding a second payrise (think it was 2%) even though the labour court had previously told them they cannot use these national wage agreements increases as bargaining chips.

Also last year after 5-8 months of talks the labout court told the company that a new computerised rostering system will deliver more efficient use of crew resources and thus the cost savings they sought. The company is dragging its heels on putting this system in place. It was supposeded to be tested before christams and in plkace by end of March.I volunteered for the trial of this system 5 months ago,no sign of it happening.

Smokey Bear

Bramble,
That computerised roster was ment to be in 8 years ago Its mad but it still written by Hand!!
Smokey Bear

Tenger

Smokey Bear wrote: »

Bramble,
That computerised roster was ment to be in 8 years ago Its mad but it still written by Hand!!
Smokey Bear

Shush! You'll make our management look incompentent!

FlutterinBantam

Hmmmm..... Mannion getting a bit impatient with all the obfuscations out there.


Seems to want real change rather than "yes we'll change and nothing happens"


Could get ugly yet.... when is Easter this year I wonder???;)

Muggy Dev

If Ryanair are hurting at the moment,and their recent company statement would suggest that they are, imagine the pain Aer Lingus are going through.Results for last year will be out soon and if the first half´s numbers are any indication,they won´t be good. The company advised analysts earlier last year to expect growth figures in the early teens.We shall see.

All this hullabalou about implimenting the PCI and saving 20 million will,in my opinion, turn out to be a mirage or "smoke and daggers" as Bertie so elequently put it.

I expect the only thing to drop to the bottom line after all of this will be shareholder confidence.Mr Mannion needs to pull a rabit out of the hat....real quick.

cp251

I hear that Mannions days are numbered. He is between a rock and a hard place with the new SRT contract too. If it's renewed, he may have to offload Engineers from Aer Lingus. More job losses. If he doesn't SRT have threatened to close. You can bet there is considerable political pressure for that not to happen.

Bob the Builder

I nearly feel sorry for Mannion. By the looks of things, he's been stoned from every direction these days....

Muggy Dev

I feel sorry for the shareholders.Who´s gonna want to buy the thing now?

FlutterinBantam

Heading for "controlled flight into terrain territory"

Into the cloud lined with stone:D

Tenger

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Hmmmm..... Mannion getting a bit impatient with all the obfuscations out there.

Seems to want real change rather than "yes we'll change and nothing happens"

With all respect it is the management who are ofuscating in the media. Reccommendations have been given by the labour court to achieve the PCI saving of 20M euro. The company have refused to follow this advice,(as they have done many times before) and are complaining of the 'unions intransigence'. However the cabin crew union for example have been in regular discussions since last summer but according to the company 'they are refusing to meet with them to discuss the PCI'.
The company have many ways to make EI more efficient yet dont believe in the maxim of 'spend money to make money'. EI currently have actual cash reserves. This could be used to revamp some longhaul cabins to make EI more attractive to passengers but are not planning to do so. EI need new longhaul cabins,new longhaul service,new longhaul routes(All their eggs are in the USA basket which hurt so badly after Sep 11th)

Mannion is puppet and no more. His answers are like a Leaving Cert Irish essay, keep using the same words in different order to get the answers('going forward' appears to be his favourite phrase). If he wanted "real change" he would have brought in his own PA at least,if not his own management team as Willie Walsh did(WW promoted 2 relatively junior guys over others to form the decision making team that turned EI around in 2002-4). replaced some of the entrenched senior managers who still retain the old Aer Lingus Civil Servant mentality.
Instead he copperfastens the contract of the head of HR (who is on record for stating that the workers are 'not her colleagues,they are her staff') who has had 2 cases of harrassment taken against her. He has not made a effort with the Dubai route which was supposed to be his area of expertise. He received a 950,000 euro bonus for delivering a privatisation which was planned before he arrived and wasn't overly successful due the Ryanair bid.

The SR Technics contract is a sound business move by EI. SR have always assumed guaranteed EI business, now EI wants to get a better financial deal from them or someone else. i can't see political pressure changing their mins if it didn't work over the Shannon routes being axed. And if SR close due losing the contract (40% of their businees)they must have been in bad shape to begin with.

Mannion currently looks like a lame duck. His big attraction (Middel Eastern and Far Eastern experience)has proven to be unfounded. He is unable to negoiate the situation in EI(cannot understand that he has to talk to unions rather than demanding things). He seems to be taking advice from managers who are unfamiliar with the 'coalface' of airline operations (several decisions taken recently which have increases ancillary revenues in the short term but are annoying pax who will ultimately switch to Bmi/Ryanair/BA/American/Continental).

I had great hopes for Mannion. I thought he would be a new dawn for EI with steady expansion and a new focus. All I got was a talking head who doesn't like to have to answer difficult questions and doesn't have the skillset that was expected from a person of his expereince.

Muggy Dev

Slightly off topic but does anyone else see the similarities between Mannion and Drumm, apart from the fact they are both well out of their depth.

Tenger

Muggy Dev wrote: »

Slightly off topic but does anyone else see the similarities between Mannion and Drumm, apart from the fact they are both well out of their depth.

Sadly for my compnay and possible future career I see the similarity. Also note the inability to see that that they are out of their depth.

FlutterinBantam

Sadly I do see a similarity too.

Both are in charge of monoliths which are heavily unionised, and to effect neccessary change means endless,I say endless, I say again, e n d e l e s s rounds of mind numbing obfuscations and rounds of talks as entrenched vested interests fight to maintain a status they know must change eventually.

Only difference is that in Mannions case the end game is in sight, its shít or bust,time to go time,face reality time, shít or get off the pot time.

With Drumm, regretfully with all this being in the State aegis, it may never be sorted out.
Unfortunately most of us fail to see we are being ripped of,i say again ripped off big time by these greedy people who use the publics sympathy and ignorance to line their bottomless pockets at taxpayers expense...yours and mine friend,yours and mine.

FlutterinBantam

Mirabile visu!!!!!!

Management out in EI finally actually telling these guys enough is enough.

Fourteen months of jaw jaw and nothing has happened yet!!!!

Mick O' must shít himself laughing when he reads this stuff in the papers.

Tenger

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Management out in EI finally actually telling these guys enough is enough.
Fourteen months of jaw jaw and nothing has happened yet!!!!

After 14 months no agreement has been reached. Both sides must take responsibility for this. Having not been present at these talks (or knowing anyone there)I cannot comment but I do know that in previous years the Management understanding of talking to union consisted of them saying NO to everything.

Yes change is needed. No member of staff is disputing that but the manner of change is the problem.

From Irish Independent yesterday:
"Ten days ago, management warned the union that if agreement was not reached on its programme of cost cuts by 22 February, they would begin unilateral implementation of new work practices on 25 February"

"Keith Butler (Human Resources Head of Line Support) says Aer Lingus has also given union representatives sample new rosters for sections including Catering and Cargo - and is available to provide further detail.
Because of this, the company sees no impediment to finalising agreement before next Friday.
Mr Butler warns that this will complete the negotiations that have gone on for 14 months.
He says no useful purpose would be served by taking part in further discussions either locally or through third-parties"

Aer Lingus has so far not published any details of what they want. They have given vague comments on shift pay/rosters/overtime. So they are demanding that staff agree to something that they don't know details of. In 14 months of jaw jawing I have yet to see any details of these changes. Under WW we all received an exact breakdown of proposed Survival plan changes for the years 2003-2006. He had a good plan that was difficult but worked. Mannion only has sentences he has learned by rote and vague comments on improving the airline. So far in his tenure as CEO the airline has actually disimproved from a passenger point of view. Bring back WW.

Please remember that Mr.Mannion received a 950,000 bonus for the 'successful' floatation. Considering that his vaunted Mid East and Asian expertise failed to materialise that strange. Also the 40 top managers have been promised productivity bonuses of up 50% of their salaries based on the implementation of the proposed PCI '07.

Note that the cutbacks are concentrated on the staff who actually deal with passengers rather than the behind the scenes Head Office staff. As an example:Due to these proposed cutbacks EI will not longer have the service of delivering baby buggies to aircraft doors for families.How does this help the airline when families will no longer fly with EI if implemented?

Is the 20M savings going towards new equipment and services for passengers or to line the pockets of the former civil servants who realise the cookie jar is unattended?

Henry Ford III

AL is being run by a bunch of complete idiots.

FlutterinBantam

Explain and discuss??

FlutterinBantam

J:eek:aysus

According to Drivetime all EI Mgmt. want is people to work their full shift!!!!

Shurely shoome mishtake... Clock in at 0600 clock out at 1400???

is that not what's happening???:D:D

Tenger

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Explain and discuss??

Second this.

I don't think 'incompetent idiots' is a proper description of the people in charge. Yes mistakes have been made are are still being made but I believe the people in charge are merely unable to see the mistakes rather then idiotic incompetents.

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

According to Drivetime all EI Mgmt. want is people to work their full shift!!!!

is that not what's happening???:D:D

I would put this down to creative interpretation of rostering systems by EI HR/Media people. Several years ago there was a problem of 'some' ground/ramp leaving early and/or heading to Kielys for looong lunches,during the day there were several periods of relative peace with few aircraft movements.
However nowadays there isn't really a quiet time on the ramp/ground so the staff there are constantly moving from aircraft to aircraft. I am sure that many sections allow you to 'work through' your lunch break to leave earlier,I know I was able to do this when on the ground if nothing untoward had happened to the schedule.On the flip side if it was a bad day I would be unable to leave my desk as I had to dealt with aircraft changes,slot problems,diversions,tech problems.

Another way to look at it would be the fact that some sections cannot work normal 8 hours shifts. Pilots and cabin crew for example are assigned to operate a number of sectors per day. This cannot exceed a certain period due to International Avaition Regs,but must be rostered around the EI schedule.
If I am rostered DUB-LHR-DUB,my day is only 5.5 hours long,its not my fault(I get sector pay so I like longer shifts,also these 2 sections cannot 'do' overtime,we call it delays) but I may not be able to operate another flight after this as there is not a suitable departure just after I get back from LHR. The next day however I may be operating a 13 hour shift to the Canaries. These sections are mandated (IATA rules)to get at least 13 hours rest between flight (This equals an office worker coming back in at 6am after the previous day,Imagine the tiredness after up to 9 days of this,losing sleep eacj rest period,which thankfully has just be disallowed,its now a max of 6 flights duties in a row)
So therefore the company can state (correctly) that I am not doing my full 8 hours shift 5 times per week. The new computerised roster system that would allow the more efficient use of crew resources and the sought after savings is being delayed by the company.

And EI Mgmt want more than just 'people doing their whole shift'. They want to take annual leave entitlement,reduce overtime rates(while using a system that needs it,just like the IAA), reduce shift allowance for unsocialable working hours (Mgmt don't work on bank holidays or weekends)

FlutterinBantam

Bramble wrote: »

Second this.

I don't think 'incompetent idiots' is a proper description of the people in charge. Yes mistakes have been made are are still being made but I believe the people in charge are merely unable to see the mistakes rather then idiotic incompetents.

The word on the street is that there is widespread overtime manipulation and that less than half the fulltime frontline staff work a full shift,and indeed that a 0500 start means off the premises by 1000 hrs at the latest:eek:


can this even be half true:eek::eek::eek::eek:

Tenger

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

The word on the street is that there is widespread overtime manipulation and that less than half the fulltime frontline staff work a full shift,and indeed that a 0500 start means off the premises by 1000 hrs at the latest:eek:

can this even be half true:eek::eek::eek::eek:

Three points:

1) Overtime can be manipulated. I believe OT before your shift is worth more than OT after your shift. I have heard (this is hearsay)that in loading ppl can come in 2 hours early and get double time for that while then finishing 2 hours earlier than the official end of their shift. The normal OT rate in EI is time and 1/2.

2) I can't believe that supervisors and managers are allowing ppl to work shorter shifts than needed. Not after all the staff cuts in recent years.

3)I believe that the 0500 shift finishes at 12 officially but if possible the staff are allowed to leave at 11am. There is a crossover of shifts at this time and a relatively calm period between most longhaul departured and 1st wave of shorthaul arrivals.

Again I am not au fait with the situation for the Clerical section.

FlutterinBantam

My sources tell me a not dissimilar regime operates in the front line passenger handling areas.
My sources also tell be that in delay situations where cabin crew hours on duty are becoming an issue,a" bargaining" session comes up with various offers and inducements to avoid a 'stacking' situation.

Don't really know what to think of that but not best practice possibly.

Tenger

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

My sources also tell be that in delay situations where cabin crew hours on duty are becoming an issue,a" bargaining" session comes up with various offers and inducements to avoid a 'stacking' situation.

There is an agreed upon framework for benefits to working beyond your limitations. For example crew only get compensation for delays after first 45 mins,until then its part of the job. After that there is a scale based on the length of the delay. Often when crew state they are 'stacking' they are offered financial inducements to continue to work.
The bargaining situation should only when started by the company,any crew who opens with "how much will you give me?' deserves to be allowed go home. And yes it is not 'best practise' but this is how EI is happy to do business.

Muggy Dev

Results for the full year out March 12.

FlutterinBantam

1700 Sunday they are still talking!!!

What a frikken slap in the face for the traveling public who don't know what the fcuk is going to happen at 0600 Monday morning.


what a way to 'run' a business.:mad:

connie_c

Does that mean if i check in before 6 i should be ok? I have a flight at 7. Anyone here have any insight?

FlutterinBantam

No , nobody here has the inside line,well I haven't anyway.

Unfortunately all it means is that you are being left in limbo,you, the guy who paid your hard earned money to book your flight with the airline of your choice,while those whose agenda is to appease their own members, and the war horses at Dublin Airport, who are still living in the 1980's, lock horns in a Pyhrric battle.

Hope you get sorted out.

fatherdougalmag

Thank God.