More unrest in Aer Lingus

FlutterinBantam

Why do these people always wait till the gun is to their heads before they resolve a situation with 'marathon talks' after 14 months........

Oh wait a minute, I know the answer to that..... what would they have been doing for the last 14 months if this wasn't going on??...productive work probably;)

Tenger

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Why do these people always wait till the gun is to their heads before they resolve a situation with 'marathon talks' after 14 months........

You could be refering to either side here. Both sides have a gun to their heads:
Staff are threatened with suspension (which would close the airline) and management have shareholders to answer to (results on March 12, EI management aren't used to having to resolve things as they had the safety net of being a semi-state)

14 months is a crazy time to be talking. However this does depand on are you actually talking or not. A reason why the unions keep asking for clarification is because the management are not giving exact details of the cost cutting plan. All they give is vaguely worded pronouncements and expect people to automatically agree. And 2-3 times they have agreed on something and when they meet again the company has altered what was agreed upon. This is creating a huge sense of distrust. WW had the sense to state evertthing very clearly and pin the open,he was an honest negotiator.

During the 2002-2004 business plan Willie Walsh published an exact breakdown of the staff cuts needed and work practises to be stopped. So far after 14 months DM has yet to publish any specific detail. During the WW era all middle management took pay freezes,company cars were stopped. Now we have the 40 top managers being promised performance bonuses,the CEO getting .95 Million Euro for turning up.

Oh did I mention the EI have just spend Euro 3M on replacing the current (perfectly functional and capable) flight and crew monitoring computer program. It now is more complicated and in colour! And there is no guarantee that it will be compatible with the new computerised cockpit/cabin crew rostering system. There are more important things to spent this money on.

Another problem I have always seen in Dublin is that EI do not stand up to the DAA. EI have equipment and staff scattered across the airport. This creates inefficiencies. It takes staff 20 mins to get from Pier C to Pier D. If EI concentrated in only part of the airport staff and ramp equipment would be used more efficiently. FR only use the A and D piers. There don'y need to have equipment ready all over the place but EI must.
And that new downstairs check-in area (Area 14)was originally intended for Ryanair,but they refused to use it so no EI has 40% of check in under arrivals,with the remaining amount above arrivals. Ttansit between the 2 is 5-10 mins,these is not efficient.

Tenger

Was chatting to an EI ground staff negotiator today. He spent last weekend in talks, got total of 9 hours sleep over both nights. Was asking him about what exactly the talks were over.I didn't get the full answer as only had 20 mins. Would love to hear a mangerial side of the talks at the weekend.

1)Unions had agreed in principle to the new working system 3 months ago. Their condition was that the rosters are planned in 4,8 or 16 week blocks. There are 16 separate roster patterns in the block.So you start on line/week 6 and work up to line/week 16 then go back to line/week 1. This way everyone gets the same roster over time and the increased productivity is delivered for the company. The company didn't like this and got a company in Milton Keynes to produce a 352(approx 6 years) week pattern which they would use, the unions countered that this didn't take into account the EI seasonal schedule. Company said would only use the first 4 months of it then pay for another one for the winter schedule.

2)Ei refused to allow the union access to the summer schedule to try to produce an alternative roster system to deliver savings. Apparently this is 'propriety info'. However they apparently have already given this info to the Milton Keynes based company.

3) Unions agreed a system and delivered Euro9.8M annual saving by last Saturday. The company refused to accept this proposal. They wanted the full 10.5M and would accept no comprmise. The mediator got them to accept this agreement.

4)The company stated in the media that they wouldn't go to the LRC for further mediation. But they invited the LRC head (Kevin Foley) to mediate last weekend at the talks.

5)The company have said that they will not be able to produce the new agreed roster until July.

6)The company at no stage revealed how the figure of 10.5M was reached. The said it was based on estimates of yield inefficiencies in the staffing levels.



I found out yesterday (from an official company source)that last month several EI mid mangers showed a document to some staff and called it the 'new agreement' reached on changes to work practises. They told the staff that they had to follow the changes in this 'document'. This was a blatant fabrication as no document had been agreed on at that stage. Unfortunately with managerial practices like this no wonder there is so little trust.

And this I knew already but think its great-Managers at EI have taken a voluntary payfreeze. One month after receiving an pay increase. The managerial bonus scheme is excluded from this payfreeze as they require an incentive to deliver.

FlutterinBantam

Don't worry about that negotiator B,check out the premier section some time in the future when the reps are going to Florida for a week to check out some new equipment

He will be well taken care of,while you take the shíte from the skangers on the weekend charters.

This crap of allocating an exact figure to cost savings in a H24/7/364 operation is all my arse.

Tenger

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Don't worry about that negotiator B,check out the premier section some time in the future when the reps are going to Florida for a week to check out some new equipment
He will be well taken care of,while you take the shíte from the skangers on the weekend charters.

Bit of strong feedback there.I will not 'worry about this negotiator(bad choic of words by me,he is on the union committee so was part of the team at the talks)
And I think you are alluding to something that you heard about but that doesn't happen.Strange because there is no chance of a ground ops union rep being flown to florida for a week to 'check new equipment'. In fact only 10days ago the Ground Operations Director made sure he and his lady wife were given 2 of the "pay to upgrade' premier seats. Normal staff cannot exert that sort of pressure.In over 10 years in EI, the only staff I have ever seen booked into Premier cabin on a longhaul flight are staff from Head Office,one wagon even had the neck to complain about the food. Yes upgrades happen but they are due to empty seats on the day, not being able to get the seats blocked off in advance for your use.
And yes Union reps do get flown to the US sometimes,however these are Cabin/Flight crew reps who travel with Company reps to examine new hotels to overnight crew in while on night stops. And the company sometimes fly staff to Toulouse to check new aircraft and/or cabin equipment.

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

This crap of allocating an exact figure to cost savings in a H24/7/364 operation is all my arse.

Thats strange because Willie Walsh was able to give quite good estimates in 2002/2003. Whereas the current management team like to bandy around concepts rather than facts and figures. Its not that hard to give estimates of savinfs planne dor expected.3 shifts (that cost N) less per day,364 days per years = savings of 3x364xN.

FlutterinBantam

Bramble wrote: »

And I think you are alluding to something that you heard about but that doesn't happen.Strange because there is no chance of a ground ops union rep being flown to florida for a week to 'check new equipment'.


Oh dear,you are the innocent one;)




Thats strange because Willie Walsh was able to give quite good estimates in 2002/2003. Whereas the current management team like to bandy around concepts rather than facts and figures. Its not that hard to give estimates of savinfs planne dor expected.3 shifts (that cost N) less per day,364 days per years = savings of 3x364xN.

Three shifts less per day and absenteeism goes thru the roof because everybody is worked to full capacity,which in turn generates overtime, which in turn generates knock on overtime due to rest period agreements on and on and on.......paper exercise entirely, no problem doing that,EI have being doing that for years...but...REAL SAVINGS.. Aaaah thats a different story entirely :cool:

Muggy Dev

Better than expected results for Aer Lingus reported here:

http://www.rte.ie/business/2008/0312/aerlingus.html

Sales up 15.2% to 1.3B. Operating profit up 16.4%, ahead of market expectations and even the company´s own earlier forecast.Pre-tax profits up 38% to 125M indicating that the company are seriously tackling their overheads.

This from the Goodbody morning briefing:

"Equipped with net cash of €757m and a 36% hedge for 2008, Aer Lingus is as well placed as any EU airline to manage very difficult trading conditions. It
continues to target additional cost improvements to combat macroeconomic and competitive pressures. These are essential to ensuring a sustainable
business model against its key competitors on short-haul (Ryanair, easyJet) and long-haul (US Legacy airlines). To date, progress in that context is evident in these numbers."

A good first year.I´m impressed.Big challanges ahead but I´m still not
convinced Mannion is the right man for the job.

FlutterinBantam

There ya go Muggy....what I have been saying all along, get the cost base down and its the first step, I say again, the first step, to getting EI on a viable footing.

There are many mountains to climb, mark my words.

To me it marks a big climb down among Union circles,a s it seems, at last, these Neanderthals realise Aer Lingus is no longer a fettered beast,driven to support it's poorly producing progeny,by endless crises and face offs,but is a free moving entity who's destiny lies in it's own hands, and who's ambitions are not regulated by the non achievers and wasters, but by the enterprise and vision of the pathfinders and visionaries who dare to break the mold of mediocrity and leave the comfort zone.

Tenger

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

....what I have been saying all along, get the cost base down and its the first step, I say again, the first step, to getting EI on a viable footing.

There are many mountains to climb, mark my words.

..................... but by the enterprise and vision of the pathfinders and visionaries who dare to break the mold of mediocrity and leave the comfort zone.

While I do agree with the first two parts I can't believe that you are calling EI management pathfinders and visionaries. The exist in the mold od mediocrity. Their refusal to leave the comfort is a contributary factor in the current IR disputes. Look at their inability to alter the long haul services as 1000's of pax each day use EI to get to LHR/AMS/CDG for connections to the US,Middle East,South Africa and Asia. EI should be marketing DUB-LAX as a quick way to get to the pacific and australasia.

FlutterinBantam

No i'm not calling EI management pathfinders and visionaries,I'm including everyone who sees the old shíte of come in to work to build up energy for the off campus activities, is a thing of the past, and that only by telling the Neanderthals that their time has gone will Aer Lingus fulfill the promise that is undoubtedly has.

EI needs the full team playing for the full 90 mins,not 5 or 6 putting in the effort while the rest swing the lead.
There is no safety net anymore.

FlutterinBantam

SURPRISE SURPRISE!!!

All is not well in EIland..rumblings of unrest again,votes for strike!!

Cannot comment definitively as not in possession of full facts,but it seems the auld warhorses are champing at the bit in the Ground Ops Dept.


Lot of anger out there,lot of anger:)

Muggy Dev

This from rte.ie a couple of days ago:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0331/aerlingus.html?rss

I can´imagine the company going back to re-negotiate so yet another accept or suspend deadline seems likely.

Muggy Dev

http://www.rte.ie/business/2008/0409/aerlingus.html

...another deadline looms. SIPTU must be quaking in their boots!:rolleyes:

Muggy Dev

http://www.rte.ie/business/2008/0409/aerlingus.html

...another deadline looms. SIPTU must be quaking in their boots!:rolleyes:

FlutterinBantam

Whoooo op!!!! saddle up again boys,get out the flasks and the sleeping bags.

Another threat of disruption at Dublin Airport,although I suspect strongly that management have the bit between their teeth now, and see a chance to wipe out the war horses at Dublin Airport.
The auld warhorses must surely see the writing on the wall now so a final rattle of the sabres and a midnight retreat??

can only see a weekend of protracted negotiations with agreement some time Monday.

Could be wrong though.

FlutterinBantam

All very quiet out there,no news breaks on this at all.

Surf's up!

FlutterinBantam

Management have given the warhorses a fortnight to sort themselves out.

Interesting to see if they will agree to stuff they rejected out of hand ,now that the gun is to their heads.

Collinstown in Westmeath might get a mention:cool:

Muggy Dev

....always in the news and always for the wrong reasons.

http://www.rte.ie/business/2008/0417/aerlingus.html

Aer Lingus´s assets are worth over twice the value of it´s market value but would you invest a penny in them?

FlutterinBantam

In fairness I would support them in the wrong fares issue.

Mistakes happen and looks like they acted rapidly to rectify the error.

However, the situation at Dublin Airport will take a good bit of rowing back on someones side if it is to be resolved.

My sources tell me that staff are extremely angry at the proposed cutbacks and it will take extremely creative thinking to reach a settlement acceptable to both sides.

Fasten seat belts,turbulence expected.

dogmatix

I think I would support the customers in the €5 euro fare fiasco - they advertised the fares, customers bought them and if they later realised they made a mistake, well it's not the customers fault!

I would wonder about the legal position in this - if you offer goods at a certain price and some one buys them would that consititute a legal contract? It would be interesting to hear the legal position on this one.

FlutterinBantam

yes,the legal situation would be interesting and would probably hinge on whether an offer was accepted and consideration paid, in the current ether business.

The actual point where "cash" passes hands would be the vital point.

Either way RTE have bigged up the issue and EI certainly are taking a battering publicity wise.

RTE of course conveniently ignore THEIR waste of taxpayers money and the fact that their people rarely travel economy,but thats another forum.

Bloody*Mary

They made a mistake. Should have to pay for their mistakes and honour the bookings. I'm sure they'd make back the losses in no time if they calculated the money they charge for mistakes made on their website by people booking flights.

FlutterinBantam

So everybody who makes a mistake should pay for it Mary??

Is that your take on things??

Bloody*Mary

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

So everybody who makes a mistake should pay for it Mary??

Is that your take on things??

Not everybody - only those who take the same mantra. Aer lingus make you pay when you make a mistake. They should pay when they make a mistake.
What's good for the goose and all that......

Muggy Dev

Gives you a great insight into the current mindset of the EI board though.

Imagine no one spottting the obvious and potentially calamatous public relations disaster that awaited a stubourn refusal to honour their commitments.With load factors on the Atlantic around the seventy mark it would have cost them nothing to have let those passangers travel.

Those guys have been under siege for so long, their´s is a bunker mentality.

FlutterinBantam

Hup hup!!!

Wow !! The auld warhorses out at Dublin Airport have reared up!!

She's into endgame now for sure ,for sure.

Savings deal rejected,which brings us back nicely to where we were when Willie Walsh put the gun to their heads and Bartholmew A. scuppered the confrontation.

Tasty, I say verrrrry tasty:D:D:D

Muggy Dev

....I´m not so sure about an endgame just yet Flutter.

The "low fare" row hurt the company and that was only two weeks ago.For the company now to anounce yet another potential disruption to passengers warning, many of their regular customers would desert them for good.

I think the workers sussed this,knew the company would be in a bind and gave them to two fingers, despite a recommendation to accept from their own union.

My guess is all will go quite now for a couple of months and then EI will announce massive redundancies in all non core areas (ie SIPTU).All of these services from baggage to catering to general admin will be contracted out.

....but wounds will have to licked first and there will be much planning to do.

FlutterinBantam

Yeah Muggy,that could certainly be a runner.

There is also the scenario of a "watered down" version being accepted and the crunch being deferred until a later date.

EI is being squeezed from all sides, it knows what it has to do,we are rapidly coming close to decision height. Is the runway in sight???? yes or no!!!

mark 2008

Hi, anyone here maybe work at aer-lingus could give us any idea if there is likely to be a strike or disruption etc next tuesday (may 6) ?

I'm due to fly to London, so wondering what i should do. (I'm totally neutral on the dispute itself). Also anyone know is aer lingus offfering changes / refunds without penaltys yet . thanks Mark

FlutterinBantam

I don't work in Aer Lingus Mark,but I would say you needn't worry about ind. action for some time.

Next week shud be ok I'm pretty sure about that,certainly no all out strike I would imagine.