New Audi A4 - Launched today

-Chris-

E92 wrote: »

The reviews of the B8 A4 I've read say usually that it is nearly as good, as good or slightly better than the 3 series(the previous favourite). So they're pretty much as good as each other if the motoring press is to be believed.

It's a close one now - FWD won't compete with RWD when we're talking proper driving dynamics, but I'm glad Audi are getting close.

The rest - styling, interior design, brand image - is in the eye of the beholder. Reliability, residuals and (current) pricing should be level-pegging on both cars.

MarkN

The A5 is still mad money though Chris. I NEARLY bought one.

A5 3.0TDI Quattro S-Line (inside and out) with leather, 19s etc (no MMI sat nav) was nearly 80k.

You can buy a 335i BMW for less, heading for nearly 70bhp more, better spec etc.

A poxy start button in an A5 is a grand whereas BMW throw it in for free - and I'm by no means a big BMW fan, I've had 5 VAG cars.

MercMad

AudiChris wrote: »

Auto headlights - included as standard
Auto wipers - included as standard
Rear opening windows -electric - not needed, it's a coupe
Folding rear seats 50-50 - included as standard
Automatic seatbelt presenter - is this really a legitimate concern?
Multi disc CD player - no. MP3 CD Single disk player with SD card reader as standard.
Auto fold rear headrests - Is this necessary? Does anyone do this other than Merc?
Speed limiter - Is this really a legitimate concern?

You missed rear parking sensors, cruise control, Xenon headlights, front fogs, MMI (like the Comand system), etc.

.........Is that the confirmed standard spec ? I have been checking for a while now, including some info from the A5's launch and from what I can see on the net !

BTW when you say "Rear opening windows -electric - not needed, it's a coupe"............the CLK is a Coupe too, in case you hadn't noticed, and it makes a World of difference to be able to lower the rear windows completely ! At least you can vent them open on the 3 series.

Automatic seatbelt presenter - is this really a legitimate concern?

.....its a major conern when you look at the target market. Surely as a salesman you can see that folk do not want their new car to be without features that their old one had. Its a very very handy feature.........likewise with the folding headrests !

The speed limiter is neither her 'nor there, but the fact is it IS there as standard on all Mercs as is Cruise Control and its only a software issue, so it wouldn't cost Audi to include it !

I accept the music system, but thats 5 years progress, I'm just surprised that they left out certain things that have been around for years and years, its juts not acceptable on a car in that pricerange !

Tragedy

OT but you have good taste chris, although I always had a thing for the s40 in BTCC too

Still cant beat early to mid 90's w201/202 DTM mercs for me though

MarkN

MercMad wrote: »

.........At least you can vent them open on the 3 series.

Not on the new model you can't. Was fairly surprised when I copped that.

MercMad

MUFU is optional on Audi & BMW as per my spec. Is it standard on C-Class?

........has been since 2001 !

Build quality is still very good for BMW, Audi (& VW), especially compared to recent Mercs

........I wouldn't defend Merc here, but I do think the quality problems have been seriously inflated. I have direct experience with 5 new Audis in as many years and they have all had serious quality issues too !

I wouldn't buy an Audi as they are simply not in the same class as the other Germans, on any level. The A5 cannot comete with the 3 and the CLK is simply nicer, despite its age !

A very subjective statement...

.....well okay I agree it IS subjective. I understand the slight subtle differences between each marque AND each model. I for example wouldn't ever buy and A4 or a 3series purely due to their image...........or should I say percieved image.

However I do like the looks of the A5 and A8, I may well buy a 5 series next, dont like the new C-Class at all and wouldn't waste my money on a brash looking S-Class when the A8 is much more cool.

I like the current CLK, though its getting old, but the new one may not look as nice, and the CLS is shaped like a banana whilst the 6 series is the ugliest car in the World !!

-Chris-

MarkN wrote: »

The A5 is still mad money though Chris. I NEARLY bought one.

A5 3.0TDI Quattro S-Line (inside and out) with leather, 19s etc (no MMI sat nav) was nearly 80k.

You can buy a 335i BMW for less, heading for nearly 70bhp more, better spec etc.

A poxy start button in an A5 is a grand whereas BMW throw it in for free - and I'm by no means a big BMW fan, I've had 5 VAG cars.

It's starting from €50,900 on the road, another €5-6k will put a nice spec into it - leather, alloy upgrade, metallic etc.
If you go for a €65k car and put €25k of extras into it, it'll cost €80k... You must have been building a massive spec!

BMW 335i is petrol, you can't compare diesel and petrol from a horsepower perspective.
330d is 228bhp and €64,000
A5 3.0TDi is 238bhp and €65,000
335d is 281bhp and €75,000
335i is 302bhp and €66,500

Car is started when you push the key into the "recepticle". No need for a start button. If a lack of a start button stops you spending €80k, I feel you're being a little over-analytical.
What you're thinking of is the advanced key where the car unlocks itself when you get near it and locks when you walk away. I don't believe this is standard on the BMW either.

-Chris-

MercMad wrote: »

.........Is that the confirmed standard spec ? I have been checking for a while now, including some info from the A5's launch and from what I can see on the net !!

Yep, confirmed for defo. If you go to the 4 pot engines you lose the mufu s/wheel and get smaller alloys, but everything else mentioned is standard.

MercMad wrote: »

.....its a major conern when you look at the target market. Surely as a salesman you can see that folk do not want their new car to be without features that their old one had. Its a very very handy feature.........likewise with the folding headrests !!

Audi's target market with the A5 & new A4 is BMW drivers. Conquest sales from BMW are where it's at. Winning over Merc drivers is not as important.
I agree that the seat-belt presenter is a handy feature, I don't agree it's a deal-breaker.
Also with the rear headrests - at their lowest position the A5 & 3 Series headrests don't obstruct view, if you have passengers they rarely adjust them anyway. I'd expect the same is true with the Mercs - if you sat in the back of someone's Merc and the rear headrests were folded down, would you even bother flipping them up?

MercMad wrote: »

The speed limiter is neither her 'nor there, but the fact is it IS there as standard on all Mercs as is Cruise Control and its only a software issue, so it wouldn't cost Audi to include it !!

The Audis get 2 speed warning buzzers that will warn you when you exceed either of the two pre-set speeds. I've had one customer tell me they're sticking with Merc because it has a speed limiter rather than a speed warning signal.

Is the speed limiter a possible safety hazard? Is it possible to forget you set it at 120kmph and then when you're overtaking someone doing 100kmph and you're accelerating hard to get around them, will you bounce off the limiter? I've never used it, but if you're getting down to the level of detail of which has auto folding headrests, I'd site the speed limiter as a concern...

RedorDead

MercMad wrote: »

...........I haven't driven the latest A4, but we have a '06 version here and a '07 Passat !

Both are diesel and the Passat is better value !

I have NO intention of taking a new A4 for a test drive, it will never be THAT good !

As for examples, and I know you will come back to me with examples of where the A5 scores over the CLK but these details should not have been missed from the basic spec.

Auto headlights - Standard on A5 (called light sensor)
Auto wipers - Standard on A5 (called rain sensors)
Rear opening windows -electric - no need on Coupe
Folding rear seats 50-50 - Standard on A5
Automatic seatbelt presenter - No idea wtf this is???
Multi disc CD player - Not standard on CLK either.
Auto fold rear headrests - Not std on A5 - no great customer benefit
Speed limiter - Cruise control standard on A5

Plus the CLK does not have 17" alloys (16's only), Xenons or rear park assist, all standard on the A5.

Also you might be right and the Passat might be better value but your initial point was that the A4 was an inferior car. Very different points.

MarkN

You can compare petrol and diesel all day long when you are comparing the prices of two cars competing with each other. The point was, the BMW is far better value.

Any option I specced was to make the A5 comparable to an M sport BMW and it still fell short.

And no, I'm not talking about keyless entry. If I am wrong, fair enough but from what I gathered from studying the brochures, you got a typical ignition key as standard and the key which can be pushed into the dash was 1,000 quid.

Audi charge 3 grand for leather, BMW charge 2k. It's not a personal attack or anything, you just sell the things but I think Audi need to get over themselves sometimes when it comes to price lists.

AudiChris wrote: »

A5 3.0TDi is 238bhp and €65,000

335i is 302bhp and €66,500

So 1,500 extra and I get a petrol engined, twin turbo car close on E46 M3 performance or a standard A5 3.0TDI. It just doesn't scream value at me!

copacetic

AudiChris wrote: »

Climate control is standard, the display you refer to is the MMI and not required for Cllimate. Also it's available from €547, included in a radio upgrade.

I'm not referring to the MMI, I'm referring to the fact that the std climate control doesn't have temperature displays on the unit and that you have to upgrade to the triple zone one to get local displays. At least thats what my dealer told me and seems correct based on online pics. The demo they had included this upgrade. They also said sline was €9k, although that was a while back, possibly they were including 'sport' spec there as you have to get it to get sline apparently? so sline is €8k over standard spec is your latest info?

I do agree with you that the concert with sd cards is a good unit, it should be standard though. Dissapointed on satnav though. I upgraded mine after market to a brand new navplus for 1k, compared to 4.5k as factory. Them making this more difficult is a right pain as they are making at least 600% markup on the satnav units.

copacetic

MarkN wrote: »

And no, I'm not talking about keyless entry. If I am wrong, fair enough but from what I gathered from studying the brochures, you got a typical ignition key as standard and the key which can be pushed into the dash was 1,000 quid.

Don't think that is correct Mark, the €1000 gets you keyless entry and the start button, you don't have to take the key from your pocket. The std key you just press into dash to start car.

The start button the the 3 coupe seems silly to me since you need to insert the key, then press the start button. It saves you no time at all.

It seems like we are hounding AudiChris but we should point out that Mark moved from the S3 to the 335 and is a similar case to me. Audi customers being driven away by continued overpricing of options (imo of course).

The A5 is a great example. The 1.8T is not moving in price at all, but the 320i coupe is coming down to 43k or so in July. No contest from then on really. The A5 just won't sell when you can get a very similar car for so much cheaper.

MarkN

copacetic wrote: »

Don't think that is correct Mark, the €1000 gets you keyless entry and the start button, you don't have to take the key from your pocket. The std key you just press into dash to start car.

Ok, I wasn't sure what the story was with that. I actually think the start button is pointless, it's one of those "ohhhhhhh" things when someone gets into the passenger seat for the first time.

The Audi key did save a quick second or two when I did have a loan of the A5.

copacetic wrote: »

It seems like we are hounding AudiChris

Yeh no fair play for signing up Chris, don't mean it to come across like that at all. It's cool to have someone on the 'inside'.

-Chris-

MarkN wrote: »

Yeh no fair play for signing up Chris, don't mean it to come across like that at all. It's cool to have someone on the 'inside'.

Not taking this personal at all, I'm getting great practice at objection handling from this thread!!!

I can't keep up with the queries, cos as customers come in I get dragged away from the pc, but I'll help/clarify/argue whenever I can.

I love cars - full-stop. I chose to sell Audi. You can't offend me by saying a BMW's better than an Audi, it's all personal tastes and in quite a number of cases you're probably right.
I'm not from the "Top Trumps" school of comparing cars. For each man there's a perfect car, and for a true petrolhead your "perfect car" probably changes every day....

I'll help with Audi info, I'll learn about the competition, I'll make some compadres and I'll have something do do when I should be working - boards.ie is being very good to me so far

copacetic

and just to be clear, I much prefer audi to bmw. At the same price I'd go for audi over bmw every time. However value is important to me, or at least perceived value. At the moment it looks like I can get a BMW 320d coupe in July for the same price as equivalent engined audi A4 (TDI 170), possibly cheaper. There is something wrong with the world if that's how it works out.

Matt Simis

Can someone remove the SHIFT or 1 (!) key from MercMad so we dont have to read everything with gasped breath "OMG Mercs are just better!!!"

MercMad

Matt Simis wrote: »

Can someone remove the SHIFT or 1 (!) key from MercMad so we dont have to read everything with gasped breath "OMG Mercs are just better!!!"

...........dont I have the right to an exclaimation mark ? Maybe its just my Canadian accent ehh !!

I dont mean to have a go at Chris either, nor any of the Audi/BMW fans and despite my username I am not blind to the faults and flaws with any of the cars I own.

I think the A5 is a lovely car, but as is the general concensus for a new car trying to get into a new market, which it is, it should have one or two areas completely covered and the optional extras should be priced more keenly.

Thats the only way to win business in this sector !

Yep, confirmed for defo. If you go to the 4 pot engines you lose the mufu s/wheel and get smaller alloys, but everything else mentioned is standard.

..........but its standard spec. I am talking about, the stuff that comes with the basic car !

Audi's target market with the A5 & new A4 is BMW drivers. Conquest sales from BMW are where it's at. Winning over Merc drivers is not as important.
I agree that the seat-belt presenter is a handy feature, I don't agree it's a deal-breaker.
Also with the rear headrests - at their lowest position the A5 & 3 Series headrests don't obstruct view, if you have passengers they rarely adjust them anyway. I'd expect the same is true with the Mercs - if you sat in the back of someone's Merc and the rear headrests were folded down, would you even bother flipping them up?

...........certainly the headrest issue wouldn't break a deal, but when you have it it IS handy. The seat belt presenter never bothered me in another car, but now I have it I simply wouldn't consider a car that didn't have it. Then again I havent sat in the A5 so it may not be an issue at all, so I guess I would concede those points to you !

The Audis get 2 speed warning buzzers that will warn you when you exceed either of the two pre-set speeds. I've had one customer tell me they're sticking with Merc because it has a speed limiter rather than a speed warning signal.

Is the speed limiter a possible safety hazard? Is it possible to forget you set it at 120kmph and then when you're overtaking someone doing 100kmph and you're accelerating hard to get around them, will you bounce off the limiter? I've never used it, but if you're getting down to the level of detail of which has auto folding headrests, I'd site the speed limiter as a concern...

...........fair enough, an audible warning would do just fine, its a handy feature, and just so you know the Merc one is a "soft" limit. The car hits the limit in a dampened type way, but its instantly bye-passed when you hit the kickdown switch. That switch is present on cars with manual transmission also !

I think we are in the "nitty gritty" area now, so i'll stop being pedantic

RedorDead..

Auto headlights - Standard on A5 (called light sensor)
Auto wipers - Standard on A5 (called rain sensors)
Rear opening windows -electric - no need on Coupe
Folding rear seats 50-50 - Standard on A5
Automatic seatbelt presenter - No idea wtf this is???
Multi disc CD player - Not standard on CLK either.
Auto fold rear headrests - Not std on A5 - no great customer benefit
Speed limiter - Cruise control standard on A5

.......as I said I had looked at the spec elsewhere and couldn't find confirmation of some of those issues PLUS I stated that since the A5 was some 5 years newer it will no doubt have features which the CLK wont have.

For you to state that there is no need for opening side windows on a Coupe is ridiculous. Of ALL cars these are the ones that need it most, and its why Merc Coupes have pretty much always had them since the 50's.

A multi disc CD unit IS standard on all CLK's since 2002 !

RedorDead

MercMad wrote: »

A multi disc CD unit IS standard on all CLK's since 2002 !

News to me, ive checked their sales literature and its not listed and any 07/08CLK listed on carzone has cd player listed in the std equipment. Why would you downgrade?

tvr

haven't your heard both merc and bmw are old luxury.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=0_sshN-URJY

MercMad

RedorDead wrote: »

News to me, ive checked their sales literature and its not listed and any 07/08CLK listed on carzone has cd player listed in the std equipment. Why would you downgrade?

..........well since we have two in the family, both bought new and both have multi discs which were not bought as options....................what can I say !

However.................I must admit that it is possible they have changed the spec since ours were bought and included something else..............IPod connection or something ??

Not sure to be honest !:o

EDIT : Just spotted this page on Carzone

http://www.carzone.ie/newcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=Details&vehicle_id=35436720070301&strSpecs=SSCIRL2002

Manufacturers Own RDS audio player with AM/FM, CD player, Disc Autochanger and six-disc remote changer

learnerplates

Does anyone know what the price of the previous model (Audi A4) was new?
the 143bph Diesel S-line model in particular.

The new one is listed as 47000!

Any ideas on the price change on this in July as well?

prospect

E92 wrote: »

Are Audi(and sister VAG companies VW, Seat and Skoda) going to follow BMW's lead and pass on VRT savings in full to the consumer?

What lead?:rolleyes:

AFAIK, FIAT are the only company to comit to the Post July pricing....

learnerplates

prospect wrote: »

What lead?:rolleyes:

AFAIK, FIAT are the only company to comit to the Post July pricing....

Your saying that other distributers in Ireland are not going to pass on the VRT saving to customers?
I'd like to know more in particular about Audi, I'd expect to pay a few grand less in July for an A4 than I do now!!:eek:

MercMad

I very much doubt that will happen. Manufacturers/distributors and dealer have seen this as a way to increase their revenue. The VRT people will get their cut of the extras but these still have the same COST price to dealers. therefore they increase the amount of options so the list price stays the same, in fact my gues is it will rise slightly.

The reason Fiat have chosen to drop the prices is that they have no choice.............there arent enough options on most models, who is going to order leather or Sat Nav on a Punto or Panda !!

copacetic

prospect wrote: »

What lead?:rolleyes:

AFAIK, FIAT are the only company to comit to the Post July pricing....

bmw are on record as saying they will pass on full reductions. Fiat have said they are already passing on reductions when they are actually not passing on the full amounts so are planning a shafting in advance..

kluivert

mick.fr wrote: »

Err, what is wrong with this post?
Don't I have the right to talk here and make a joke.
Did I insulted somebody or violated the forum rules. No.

If I am the only to laugh fair enough, I will understand it myself at some stage, not worth a threat or ban though.

Unkel drives a BMW lol so becareful lol.

I thought it was funny.

Biro

Seeing as we're on an Audi thread, how come people always talk up the A4 and say how wonderful it is, and then you mention an A3 to the same people and they'll say "Ah, that's just a tarted up Golf. Waste of money".
I don't get that! I think the A3 3dr is a bigger jump over the Golf 3dr than the A4 is over the Passat (exclude the B7 A4 for the time being).
Also, it's worth noting that VW Ireland are ripping off big time with the 170bhp TDi Golf. It's dearer than the GTI. It's around €38k. You can get the A3 with the same engine for about €2k less! I know which I'd prefer!

-Chris-

learnerplates wrote: »

Does anyone know what the price of the previous model (Audi A4) was new?
the 143bph Diesel S-line model in particular.

The new one is listed as 47000!

Any ideas on the price change on this in July as well?

If you're going to compare prices, compare them on the base model. The new model Sport is completely different from the old model sport, doesn't contain any of the same bits.

New Model:
A4 2.0TDI 143BHP 6-SPEED - €44,200
Old Model:
A4 2.0 TDI 140BHP - €43,320
€900 increase for the new model. About par for the course...

Not comparable with the Sport specs.
New Model:
A4 2.0TDI 143BHP 6-SPEED SPORT - €47,400
Old Model
A4 2.0 TDI 140BHP SPORT - €44,270


2.0TDi will drop from 30% VRT to 20% VRT, base your price/spec expectations on this.

copacetic

audichris, just as a note, you mentioned earlier that the sline wasn't the 9k I thought but only 5k. I was on to my dealer again and they said it is 9k, that it is 5.5k for sline sport pack (interior pack + wheels). 1.5k for cheapest seats that you can order with this pack and 2k for the sline exterior pack. Are you still saying this is wrong?

groupb

I thought this forum was about interesting cars. Not motoring white goods like audis. Saw a new A4 today which looks like the old A4 , which looks like an A6 which lo.........................................ZZZZZZ.

-Chris-

copacetic wrote: »

audichris, just as a note, you mentioned earlier that the sline wasn't the 9k I thought but only 5k. I was on to my dealer again and they said it is 9k, that it is 5.5k for sline sport pack (interior pack + wheels). 1.5k for cheapest seats that you can order with this pack and 2k for the sline exterior pack. Are you still saying this is wrong?

Sorry, when I was answering, I was doing it from memory and in shorthand. Here's the detail!

Sports Pack is €4,979. It contains:
- Cast aluminium wheels, 8J x 18, in 5-spoke design, with 245 / 40 R 18 tyres
- S line sports suspension with more dynamic suspension tuning and lowered by 30 mm
- S line logos on the front wings
- Door sill trims with S line logo
- Front sports seats, with electric lumbar support for the front seats
- Interior and headlining in black with (QE) black stitching or (QF) silver stitching for the seat upholstery, steering wheel, gear lever gaiter and floor mats
- Inlays in Matt brushed aluminium including aluminium-look interior trim on the air vents, light switches and the electromechanical parking brake

Seats are from €1,389 to €3,519, depending on the finish you go for (from leather & cloth up to full Nappa). You have to pick a seat fabric to match the S-Line Sports Pack, cheapest cost is €1,389.

The S-Line Exterior package isn't available/buildable for the A4 yet, and pricing isn't available either.

As I said, I don't know how much the M-Tech pack is or what it includes, so I don't know I'm comparing like with like.

groupb

"The electromechanical parking brake" This sounds soooo much better than the plain old "parking brake" that the likes of renault has had for years. Hope this electromechanical wonder is not the same as the one in the passat which only works intermitiantly. You're not comparing like for like. A BMW is a proper prestige car that has substance beneath the veneer.

-Chris-

groupb wrote: »

"The electromechanical parking brake" This sounds soooo much better than the plain old "parking brake" that the likes of renault has had for years. Hope this electromechanical wonder is not the same as the one in the passat which only works intermitiantly. You're not comparing like for like. A BMW is a proper prestige car that has substance beneath the veneer.

Not helpful in any way to my query. Can you give me an idea of what's in the M-Tech pack so I can know (even for my own product knowledge) what's in it?

copacetic

AudiChris wrote: »

Sorry, when I was answering, I was doing it from memory and in shorthand. Here's the detail!

Sports Pack is €4,979. It contains:
- Cast aluminium wheels, 8J x 18, in 5-spoke design, with 245 / 40 R 18 tyres
- S line sports suspension with more dynamic suspension tuning and lowered by 30 mm
- S line logos on the front wings
- Door sill trims with S line logo
- Front sports seats, with electric lumbar support for the front seats
- Interior and headlining in black with (QE) black stitching or (QF) silver stitching for the seat upholstery, steering wheel, gear lever gaiter and floor mats
- Inlays in Matt brushed aluminium including aluminium-look interior trim on the air vents, light switches and the electromechanical parking brake

Seats are from €1,389 to €3,519, depending on the finish you go for (from leather & cloth up to full Nappa). You have to pick a seat fabric to match the S-Line Sports Pack, cheapest cost is €1,389.

The S-Line Exterior package isn't available/buildable for the A4 yet, and pricing isn't available either.

As I said, I don't know how much the M-Tech pack is or what it includes, so I don't know I'm comparing like with like.

cheers, apparently the 5.5k is for all the cars except the 1.8T so your price must be for the 1.8T?

Does your build rule show that you must order sport trim to add sline?

It sounds like the exterior pack will be at least 2k though based on that pricing?

the msport 318d is under 5k more than the SE @ 52,270 and includes:

double spoke 17 inch wheel.
blue shadow cloth/alcantara anthracite interior
aluminum glacier interior trim
anthracite headlining
high gloss shadowlin
m steering wheel
m sport logos on sills
m sport bodykit
m sport suspension
sports seats

on top of the se kit.

so basically similar to the sline exterior and interior kit and seats except with 17 inch wheels and about 4k cheaper as far as I can tell.

-Chris-

copacetic wrote: »

cheers, apparently the 5.5k is for all the cars except the 1.8T so your price must be for the 1.8T?

Yeah, optional extras pricing differs a little depending on whether you're in the 25% or 30% VRT band. Seeing as 80%+ of the A5s we sell will be 1.8T, I went with the pricing for that.

copacetic wrote: »

Does your build rule show that you must order sport trim to add sline?

Nope, the Sport model is merely a combination of extras that, if you order them all together, you get a price break. It's really a legitimate model, rather a generic spec (if you see what I mean).
You can put S-Line into any model.

copacetic wrote: »

It sounds like the exterior pack will be at least 2k though based on that pricing?

It was charged at €950 on the B7 A4, but that was probably to make the model more desirable as it was being replaced. I'm not here long enough to know what it cost before that, but €2k is plausible

copacetic wrote: »

the msport 318d is under 5k more than the SE @ 52,270 and includes:

double spoke 17 inch wheel.
blue shadow cloth/alcantara anthracite interior
aluminum glacier interior trim
anthracite headlining
high gloss shadowlin
m steering wheel
m sport logos on sills
m sport bodykit
m sport suspension
sports seats

on top of the se kit.

Cool, thanks for the info.

copacetic wrote: »

so basically similar to the sline exterior and interior kit and seats except with 17 inch wheels and about 4k cheaper as far as I can tell.

You're correct, looks like most of the S-Line interior and exterior packs together. Altogether it's costing probably €4,979 + €1,389 + €2,000est = €8,368, or €3,000 more than the MSport kit.
The wheels that the S-Line Sports Package puts into the car are 18" quattro GMBH alloys which on their own would cost €2,886 whereas the normal 17" upgrade is only €1,325 (yeah, yeah, another overpriced Audi extra ), so they probably account for some of the cost.

copacetic

well to be honest the annoying this is that if you were going sline you would really have to go for the RS4 style 19inchers!! as well which would add a bit, but the sline exterior kit isn't very different so you could maybe drop it. in fact the back bumper panel looks a bit funny imo when there isn't a split exhaust. the sline exterior kit should really include the split exhaust imo which would make a nice difference imo.

I like the sline interior of the audi above the bmw, but the price difference post july is going to be massive. eg audi 2.0TDI 140 SE with sline ~ 56,600? vrt comes down 10% to about €49,525k. 318d msport (includes SE spec) 52,700 comes down 14% in vrt so about €43,916.

Assuming bmw and audi both pass on full price savings. Thats a really big difference imo for cars that are very similar. I really don't know how they can compete with that kind of pricing difference as the 318d will also be half the cost to tax.
42,545.

-Chris-

copacetic wrote: »

but the price difference post july is going to be massive. eg audi 2.0TDI 140 SE with sline ~ 56,600? vrt comes down 10% to about €49,525k. 318d msport (includes SE spec) 52,700 comes down 14% in vrt so about €43,916.

Assuming bmw and audi both pass on full price savings.

Can I just ask the general populace (and I'll ask this in the VRT thread too, as it's kind of OT), does anyone really think that the pre-tax prices are going to stay the same??

I don't see how it's feasible.

---

From E92s figures the following is likely to happen (and E92 will readily accept that those figures are just an analysis of what should happen, not what will happen):

The Audi A6 2.0TFSI Manual will drop to €46,443
The Audi A6 2.0TFSI Auto will rise to €52,274

The Audi A6 2.0TDI Manual will drop to €44,984
The Audi A6 2.0TDI Auto will rise to €51,032

Where it used to cost €2,800 for auto in an Audi, it now costs circa €6,000!!!


The BMW 520d SE Manual will drop to €45,208
The BMW 525d SE Manual will drop to €59,454

Where it used to cost €10k to move up an engine size, it's now over €14k
I don't know what the effect of automatic will have on the price of the Beemers.


The BMW 325i SE Manual Saloon will drop from €52,850 to €48,678
The BMW 325i SE Manual Touring will drop from €54,850 to €53,326

Where it used to cost €2k to move into a Touring, now it's nearly €5k.
But if you're buying a 318i SE it changes from a €2k premium to only €1,850.

---

Ask yourself, if you were the Sales or Marketing Manager for either of these companies, would you allow anomalies like this to develop, or would you do a little pre-tax "tweaking"?
I expect there to be a lot of fiddling with figures (hopefully all profit neutral) to keep the model mixes consistent.

Biro

AudiChris wrote: »

Can I just ask the general populace (and I'll ask this in the VRT thread too, as it's kind of OT), does anyone really think that the pre-tax prices are going to stay the same??

Probably not.

AudiChris wrote: »

Ask yourself, if you were the Sales or Marketing Manager for either of these companies, would you allow anomalies like this to develop, or would you do a little pre-tax "tweaking"?
I expect there to be a lot of fiddling with figures (hopefully all profit neutral) to keep the model mixes consistent.

Profit neutral "tweaking" is not possible given the above price differences really, and anyway even if it was, they wouldn't buy into it.
But the point is that if you pollute more, then you pay more. An Auto pollute's more, therefore the aim of this whole tax move is to make the punter think twice about how badly he wants that auto box, seeing as he'll be doing more harm for the same mileage than he would if he were to use his left arm and leg a bit more.
If the dealer's try and alter the difference, then they're just going against the whole ethos of this new "law", and making a farce of it for their own profit, cause lets face it, that's what they'd alter it for.

Gegerty

Anyone know when the 2.0 TDI 120 bhp e is due to hit the shops and whether there'll be more powerful "e" models...if thats not a contradiction.

pburns

Gegerty wrote: »

Anyone know when the 2.0 TDI 120 bhp e is due to hit the shops and whether there'll be more powerful "e" models...if thats not a contradiction.

I'd say it's a contradicion - for the time being at least.

The fact that Audi have to launch special low-bhp 'e' models is a cop-out. BMW can maintain high bhp/low CO2, why can't Audi?

Also I see VAG have rehashed the tired old tractor engine that is the 1.9TDI and used it for the 'Bluemotion' sub-brand...

So despite the largely positive VRT changes the Irish will still plump in large droves for the noisy, low-powered, low-spec A4 model
- 'sure as long as it has a swanky badge to impress the neighbours what matter?':rolleyes:

Gegerty

pburns wrote: »

I'd say it's a contradicion - for the time being at least.

The fact that Audi have to launch special low-bhp 'e' models is a cop-out. BMW can maintain high bhp/low CO2, why can't Audi?

Also I see VAG have rehashed the tired old tractor engine that is the 1.9TDI and used it for the 'Bluemotion' sub-brand...

So despite the largely positive VRT changes the Irish will still plump in large droves for the noisy, low-powered, low-spec A4 model
- 'sure as long as it has a swanky badge to impress the neighbours what matter?':rolleyes:

I thought Audi had good diesel engines? There's no doubt BMW are ahead of the game on emissions but I think the swanky badge brigade belong to BMW! And some people like cars with working indicators and mirrors if you know what I mean.

Personally I'm interested in test driving the 2.0 TDI 120 bhp e before I decide to buy, for the more relaxed driver its not under powered. We'll see about prices come July. Call me a sceptic but I'm very doubtful that the massive reductions in the BMW will be passed on to the consumer. I'm guessing that come July there will be little difference in price between Audi and BMW.

-Chris-

Gegerty wrote: »

I thought Audi had good diesel engines? There's no doubt BMW are ahead of the game on emissions but I think the swanky badge brigade belong to BMW! And some people like cars with working indicators and mirrors if you know what I mean.

Personally I'm interested in test driving the 2.0 TDI 120 bhp e before I decide to buy, for the more relaxed driver its not under powered. We'll see about prices come July. Call me a sceptic but I'm very doubtful that the massive reductions in the BMW will be passed on to the consumer. I'm guessing that come July there will be little difference in price between Audi and BMW.

2.0TDI 120BHP E Model will begin production in week 22, which means we'll see them in the flesh in mid-June. Pricing won't be released until closer to then (in all reality, only post-July pricing will matter anyway).

It'll be similar in performance to the current 1.9TDi 115bhp, but it'll be more refined.

The concept of the E models is that they're aimed at being as low fuel consumption as possible, so I don't expect to see any high-performance E's. They include both engine and aerodynamic tweaks to increase the fuel economy.


On a different note: BMW have sneaked slightly ahead with the Efficient Dynamics (and they should be commended for it), but I don't see the need to bash every other make for not thinking of it!
Somebody's always first with everything, then either everyone else catches up or falls behind.
BMW don't have hybrid technology or flexifuel technology (afaik), they went the efficient dynamics route, and it's paying off. Audi/Mercedes/Lexus etc. will have to match it or improve on it, either copying it or developing their own fuel efficient technologies.
- Audi's refining exisiting technology and has stop/start and hybrid in the works.
- Lexus is rolling hybrid across it's range and is being very successful in it.
- I don't know where Merc are with all this stuff.
- Saab and Volvo have flexifuel.

At some point in the future we'll be able to look back and say, "wow, wasn't <insert technology here> a brilliant invention, I can't believe anyone thought <rival technology> would ever compete".
Until then, let's try and tone down the bashing/fanboy-ism...

R.O.R

AudiChris wrote: »

On a different note: BMW have sneaked slightly ahead with the Efficient Dynamics (and they should be commended for it), but I don't see the need to bash every other make for not thinking of it!

I seem to remember reading in Autoexpress 3 or 4 years ago about Citroen or Peugeot launching Stop / Start technology in one of their small cars (could even have been Toyota), so that idea has been around for a while. Admittedly BMW have perfected it and added regenerative breaking etc. for the effecient dynamics, but I don't think all the credit should go their way.

P.S. It's a bit weird when a BMW dies on you for the 1st time at traffic lights. My instinctive reaction was to dip the clutch again to stop the engine stalling.

copacetic

AudiChris wrote: »

2.0TDI 120BHP E Model will begin production in week 22, which means we'll see them in the flesh in mid-June. Pricing won't be released until closer to then (in all reality, only post-July pricing will matter anyway).

It'll be similar in performance to the current 1.9TDi 115bhp, but it'll be more refined.

The concept of the E models is that they're aimed at being as low fuel consumption as possible, so I don't expect to see any high-performance E's. They include both engine and aerodynamic tweaks to increase the fuel economy.


On a different note: BMW have sneaked slightly ahead with the Efficient Dynamics (and they should be commended for it), but I don't see the need to bash every other make for not thinking of it!
Somebody's always first with everything, then either everyone else catches up or falls behind.
BMW don't have hybrid technology or flexifuel technology (afaik), they went the efficient dynamics route, and it's paying off. Audi/Mercedes/Lexus etc. will have to match it or improve on it, either copying it or developing their own fuel efficient technologies.
- Audi's refining exisiting technology and has stop/start and hybrid in the works.
- Lexus is rolling hybrid across it's range and is being very successful in it.
- I don't know where Merc are with all this stuff.
- Saab and Volvo have flexifuel.

At some point in the future we'll be able to look back and say, "wow, wasn't <insert technology here> a brilliant invention, I can't believe anyone thought <rival technology> would ever compete".
Until then, let's try and tone down the bashing/fanboy-ism...

i don't think it's fanboyism chris, it is just true, bmw are miles ahead, not slightly. for instance this e model A4 will likely be the same price as the BMW 318d with same emissions but much less power and speed.

E92

Remember that EfficientDynamics models actually brought a power increase ironically in the case of 4 cylinder and petrol powered 6 cylinder models(excluding the 335i).

And BMW haven't done gear ratio revisions and special aerodynamic tweaks yet to their cars, or the bits of aluminium here and there, which are a feature of Audi e models yet, so there is nothing stopping BMW from improving their figures even more, and putting them even further ahead(their petrols provide lower emissions than other makers diesels and even hybrid models), never mind the diesel models.

BMW don't seem to have any plans for E85 cars, but there are plenty of doubts about how good E85 even is these days(that said I think if they could sort out the where they source E85 from issue, then they would prove a dramatic reduction in CO2 instantly), though they might, but lets wait and see. If they do, you can be sure I'll say it here:D!

As others have said, there is nothing new about ED, bits and pieces have been found on other cars for years, but BMW were the first to put it all together and fit it as standard for all their cars now bar 7 series, X3 and Z4 (and the M models I think) which are the only BMWs without ED(but with the Z4 being replaced next year, and the new 7 series and X3 coming within 2 years, all BMWs will have it soon(bar the M versions I think).

BMW will have an X6 hybrid next year, and it will be 20% more efficient than the non hybrid petrol model. They're only doing it really as a marketing tool IMO(though the next generation 5 series will also have a hybrid option, as will the next X3), after all the running gear for it didn't come from the joint venture with Merc and GM for the good of BMWs health now, did it?

-Chris-

copacetic wrote: »

i don't think it's fanboyism chris, it is just true, bmw are miles ahead, not slightly. for instance this e model A4 will likely be the same price as the BMW 318d with same emissions but much less power and speed.

Yep, BMW have really gotten their engine technology bang on. I think it's brilliant and it raises the bar for everyone else. BMWs diesels especially have ALWAYS been smooth, fast, powerful - in a word Excellent!

I'm just amazed at the amount of "well if BMW can do it, why can't everyone else?" that appears in threads - whether it's about VRT, specs or CO2 and fuel efficiency in general. They have a really strong fanbase here...

pburns

copacetic wrote: »

i don't think it's fanboyism chris, it is just true, bmw are miles ahead, not slightly. for instance this e model A4 will likely be the same price as the BMW 318d with same emissions but much less power and speed.

+1
My comments above are not based on any type of BMW fan-boyism. Read some of my previous posts and you'll see I am NOT a BMW fan!

However whereas other companies seem to regularly replace their engines with new, improved versions, VAG introduces new engines but keeps some of the old ones in production long after they should have been put out to pasture. They then put them into otherwise dynamically excellent cars (the aforementioned 1.9 TDI springs to mind - the VW arm are coming up with yet anther rehash of this engine in the Bluemotion models!). This undermines their credibility to my mind...

This cynicism is also evident in these bull**** 'e' models that are blown into the weeds by their nearest competitor.

copacetic

AudiChris wrote: »

Yep, BMW have really gotten their engine technology bang on. I think it's brilliant and it raises the bar for everyone else. BMWs diesels especially have ALWAYS been smooth, fast, powerful - in a word Excellent!

I'm just amazed at the amount of "well if BMW can do it, why can't everyone else?" that appears in threads - whether it's about VRT, specs or CO2 and fuel efficiency in general. They have a really strong fanbase here...

well would agree with that, i'm sure audi will catch up in a year or too, but it may be too late for the likes of me!

RedorDead

pburns wrote: »

I'd say it's a contradicion - for the time being at least.

The fact that Audi have to launch special low-bhp 'e' models is a cop-out. BMW can maintain high bhp/low CO2, why can't Audi?

Also I see VAG have rehashed the tired old tractor engine that is the 1.9TDI and used it for the 'Bluemotion' sub-brand...

So despite the largely positive VRT changes the Irish will still plump in large droves for the noisy, low-powered, low-spec A4 model
- 'sure as long as it has a swanky badge to impress the neighbours what matter?':rolleyes:

Point 1. 1.9TDi is finished on A4 and is not coming back. 2.0TDI Common rail and upwards from now on.

Point 2. In Ireland buyers in all marques always migrate towards the cheapest model on offer. This will apply to the new e model and applys to all brands. BMW sold nearly 1000 316's last year. Badge snobbery extends far beyond Audi Mr Burns.

RedorDead

copacetic wrote: »

i don't think it's fanboyism chris, it is just true, bmw are miles ahead, not slightly. for instance this e model A4 will likely be the same price as the BMW 318d with same emissions but much less power and speed.

The A4 e model will not compete with any current BMW model it will be under any current BMW model in terms of BHP and price. For example:

2.0TDI with 143BHP competes with 318D with 143BHP
2.0TDI with 170BHP competes with 320D with 177BHP

2.7TDI with 325D and 3.0TDI with 330D etc etc

All Audi A4 engines will be priced on a level or under competing BMW engines come July 1.

The 2.0TDI e model could very well be priced sub 35K come July 1 a 318D will be 39500 which will be still €500 more than the equivalant engined A4.

Bit of research wouldnt go astray lads!