New Audi A4 - Launched today

copacetic

certainly from the front it is much nicer than the 3 series or the c class imo, it is also a fair bit bigger inside or at least feels it. Boot is way bigger than the 3 class for instance. In fact it is closer in size to the 5 series that the 3 imo. The 3 series looks like it is a size class below the A4 and C class now, no wonder they are rushing the facelift out. The A4 interior is much nicer that either the 3 or c class also. the electronic parking brake is a lovely touch as is the std big screen, although colour is extra (but not much ~200). If the same spec and power was the same price across the 3, A4 and C class the A4 would win hands down imo.

However the big issue is cost, spec one up with pretty much a minimum spec and you are into the 50s straight away. I've price up a 2.0TDI 143 against the 318d and a similar spec costs about 3k more, although this includes the xenons which you would have to get imo. However in July the 318d comes down 14% which the A4 only 10%. The gap will stretch to 6 or 7k and there are bigger discounts available on the 3er. Then again you would be nuts to buy one until the facelift is announced and proper pics are available. It looks like it will look a fair bit different from front and back.

Ice_Box

Looks ok in these pics

http://www.carzone.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=912745

http://www.carzone.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=903332

HashSlinging

Massive improvement but 56k is crazy money for a low spec 2.0Tdi.

-Chris-

Those cars are 45k with 11k of options. They're model introduction spec cars, and they're probably identical.

You'll see a few more of those come on the market before the month is out...

RedorDead

copacetic wrote: »

certainly from the front it is much nicer than the 3 series or the c class imo, it is also a fair bit bigger inside or at least feels it. Boot is way bigger than the 3 class for instance. In fact it is closer in size to the 5 series that the 3 imo. The 3 series looks like it is a size class below the A4 and C class now, no wonder they are rushing the facelift out. The A4 interior is much nicer that either the 3 or c class also. the electronic parking brake is a lovely touch as is the std big screen, although colour is extra (but not much ~200). If the same spec and power was the same price across the 3, A4 and C class the A4 would win hands down imo.

However the big issue is cost, spec one up with pretty much a minimum spec and you are into the 50s straight away. I've price up a 2.0TDI 143 against the 318d and a similar spec costs about 3k more, although this includes the xenons which you would have to get imo. However in July the 318d comes down 14% which the A4 only 10%. The gap will stretch to 6 or 7k and there are bigger discounts available on the 3er. Then again you would be nuts to buy one until the facelift is announced and proper pics are available. It looks like it will look a fair bit different from front and back.

Id love to see what youre comparing as the standard 3 series doesnt even come with foglights or alloys, you need to move upto the ES to get these. Both are standard on the A4.

Drive the B8 A4 and youll see its a big improvement over the B7 A4 and most reviews ive read (@ Robamerc) put it above its competitors.

copacetic

RedorDead wrote: »

Id love to see what youre comparing as the standard 3 series doesnt even come with foglights or alloys, you need to move upto the ES to get these. Both are standard on the A4.

Drive the B8 A4 and youll see its a big improvement over the B7 A4 and most reviews ive read (@ Robamerc) put it above its competitors.

Obviously I factored all that in and compared a 318d SE against a Audi 2.0tdi SE/sport with pretty much exactly the same spec. Once you are in that spec the BMWs are dearer but are better equipped, if you spec the audi up to the same level it is dearer (alarm, interior light package, auto dimming, multi funtion wheel 3 spoke wheel) etc as standard. Leather is also much cheaper in the BMW. There is also various options like the colour DIS, colour main screen and concert stereo that you need to go to as a based spec for resale. As I said I have driven it and it is a big improvement over the B7.
However the pricing is terrible.

Take a look at the linked cars for instance, 11k of options and not even leather/satnav in either of them. They are both pretty much minimum spec 2.0TDI sports imo.

-Chris-

copacetic wrote: »

Take a look at the linked cars for instance, 11k of options and not even leather/satnav in either of them. They are both pretty much minimum spec 2.0TDI sports imo.

Silver Metallic
Mondial Cloth
Driver Info System
Aluminium Inlays
Luggage Package
17 7 Arm Alloys
Audi Hold Assist
Phone Prep
Servotronic
Multi Function Steering Wheel
Split Rear Seats
A/T Dip Rear View Mirror
Alarm
Power Lumber Support
Rear Acoustic Parking
Rain & Light Sensors
Cruise Control
Concert Radio
3-Zone Auto Air Con

This is not "minimum spec", it may not be a list of options you'd go for in your car, but it's definitely not minimum spec.
They're also not Sports, they have sports alloys on them, but they're missing the sports seats, xenons & 3 spoke sports MUFU steeringwheel.

They're basic cars spec'ed up with all the stuff that's hard to describe - everyone knows what leather and a sunroof looks like, but it's hard to describe luggage package, storage package, additional lights package etc. That's why they're Model Introduction cars, they're not a spec to sell, they're a spec to be used to sell individual options on other cars.

Pound for pound, I think the New A4 is stacking up quite nicely against the competition in looks, drive, price and spec. Noone knows what'll happen after 01/07/08 though, so that may all change...

copacetic

AudiChris wrote: »

Silver Metallic
Mondial Cloth
Driver Info System
Aluminium Inlays
Luggage Package
17 7 Arm Alloys
Audi Hold Assist
Phone Prep
Servotronic
Multi Function Steering Wheel
Split Rear Seats
A/T Dip Rear View Mirror
Alarm
Power Lumber Support
Rear Acoustic Parking
Rain & Light Sensors
Cruise Control
Concert Radio
3-Zone Auto Air Con

This is not "minimum spec", it may not be a list of options you'd go for in your car, but it's definitely not minimum spec.
They're also not Sports, they have sports alloys on them, but they're missing the sports seats, xenons & 3 spoke sports MUFU steeringwheel.

They're basic cars spec'ed up with all the stuff that's hard to describe - everyone knows what leather and a sunroof looks like, but it's hard to describe luggage package, storage package, additional lights package etc. That's why they're Model Introduction cars, they're not a spec to sell, they're a spec to be used to sell individual options on other cars.

Pound for pound, I think the New A4 is stacking up quite nicely against the competition in looks, drive, price and spec. Noone knows what'll happen after 01/07/08 though, so that may all change...

well possibly we differ on what 'minimum spec' means, I mean the minimum possible reasonable level, which theses aren't even at. As you say you need to add the xenons and leather to these to even make them what I would call the minimum spec for me. Which pushes them to over 60k!!!
I mean ffs how can they still not spec the alarm??

It won't be as apparent to people at the moment, but come July the A4 is going to look ridiculously over priced here compared to the 3er. Launching even lower powered versions of the 1.8T and 2.0TDI is not the way to try to fool people imo.

I'm not anti-audi, I drive one and was waiting for the A4, but am very dissapointed in the pricing. Perhaps that is why I am even more surprised than the casual observer.

-Chris-

copacetic wrote: »

well possibly we differ on what 'minimum spec' means, I mean the minimum possible reasonable level, which theses aren't even at. As you say you need to add the xenons and leather to these to even make them what I would call the minimum spec for me. Which pushes them to over 60k!!!
I mean ffs how can they still not spec the alarm??

I'm not anti-audi... ...but am very dissapointed in the pricing.

A4 2.0 TDi Saloon 143bhp - €45,000
Metallic - €1312
Leather - €3055
Xenons - €1659 (if you need them)
Concert Radio - €547 (gives you MMI - Audi's IDrive)
Alloys - Std
Climate Control - Std
Isofix - Std
Front Armrest - Std
Exterior Chrome/High Gloss Pack - Std
Interior Aluminium Trim - Std
Leather S/Wheel - Std
Upgrade to MUFU S/wheel - €307
Floor mats - Std
Rear Park Assist - €664
Alarm - €767
Cruise Control - €451
Bluetooth Integration - €861

That's a very complete spec for €54,623

BMW 318d ES 141bhp - €44,600 (does this include delivery?)
Metallic - €1075
Leather - €2460
Xenons - €1260 (if you need them)
Radio Upgrade - is it needed?
Alloys - Std
Climate Control - €1075
Isofix - €130
Front Armrest - €215
High Gloss Shadow Line - €1,130
Interior Aluminium - €430
Leather S/Wheel - Std?
Upgrade to MUFU S/wheel - €215
Floor mats - €145
Rear Park Assist - €575
Alarm - €Std
Cruise Control - €360
Bluetooth Integration - €1075
And the same complete spec for the 318d is €54,745

Not saying one is cheaper/dearer/better than the other. Based on current pricing, both are pretty competitive with each other imo...

E92

AudiChris wrote: »

A4 2.0 TDi Saloon 143bhp - €45,000
Metallic - €1312
Leather - €3055
Xenons - €1659 (if you need them)
Concert Radio - €547 (gives you MMI - Audi's IDrive)
Alloys - Std
Climate Control - Std
Isofix - Std
Front Armrest - Std
Exterior Chrome/High Gloss Pack - Std
Interior Aluminium Trim - Std
Leather S/Wheel - Std
Upgrade to MUFU S/wheel - €307
Floor mats - Std
Rear Park Assist - €664
Alarm - €767
Cruise Control - €451
Bluetooth Integration - €861

That's a very complete spec for €54,623

BMW 318d ES 141bhp - €44,600 (does this include delivery?)
Metallic - €1075
Leather - €2460
Xenons - €1260 (if you need them)
Radio Upgrade - is it needed?
Alloys - Std
Climate Control - €1075
Isofix - €130
Front Armrest - €215
High Gloss Shadow Line - €1,130
Interior Aluminium - €430
Leather S/Wheel - Std?
Upgrade to MUFU S/wheel - €215
Floor mats - €145
Rear Park Assist - €575
Alarm - €Std
Cruise Control - €360
Bluetooth Integration - €1075
And the same complete spec for the 318d is €54,745

Not saying one is cheaper/dearer/better than the other. Based on current pricing, both are pretty competitive with each other imo...

Yes but the point surely is is that the old A4 and all previous Audis were a good deal better value than their BMW counterparts, which in turn were much better value than Mercs.

This has now disappeared so, no matter what way you spin it, they are no longer that good on the value for money count. I mean to order a car with 12k of options and not put in the most important option by a mile(bar metalic paint), leather, is absolutely crazy IMO, an option that along with the all important metallic paint(and increasingly an Automatic gearbox, though that could well change in July) is well known for making cars far more desirable and therefore more valuable when the time comes to selling on.

As for post July, the only thing we know is that BMW has confirmed that the VRT reductions will be passed on to the consumer in full(of course they may well put in extra equipment, but that's no bad thing, I mean things like leather should be standard anyway and are a popular option), and that the BMW will be in 16% VRT compared to the Audi's 20% VRT(and the higher road tax that is part and parcel of higher VRT from July). On the other hand, the new 'e' models from Audi will surely negate the point about the BMWs being better value for money(they have CO2 emissions similar to BMWs with EfficientDynamics), so there is a lot to play for there!

I'm not going to get into the specifics of which is the better car, I have no idea what the B8 A4 is like, other than to say I was always a fan of the B7 till they facelifted it(I thought they ruined the look of it when they did that, the pre facelift was a fantastic looking car), I know I like the E90, but the B8 is getting great reviews so I'm sure it is a very good car, though the motorcycle style instruments would drive me mad!

Matt Simis

RobAMerc wrote: »

I have only seen pics in the mags, but would be surprised if it looks as fantastic as people think.

From the reviews I read its still no match for the 3 series or the new C Class.

One passed me in Lucan, was immediately eye catching, something the 3 series has never been (to me). I think it looks a pay grade above the 3 series if you get my drift.

copacetic

AudiChris wrote: »

A4 2.0 TDi Saloon 143bhp - €45,000
Metallic - €1312
Leather - €3055
Xenons - €1659 (if you need them)
Concert Radio - €547 (gives you MMI - Audi's IDrive)
Alloys - Std
Climate Control - Std
Isofix - Std
Front Armrest - Std
Exterior Chrome/High Gloss Pack - Std
Interior Aluminium Trim - Std
Leather S/Wheel - Std
Upgrade to MUFU S/wheel - €307
Floor mats - Std
Rear Park Assist - €664
Alarm - €767
Cruise Control - €451
Bluetooth Integration - €861

That's a very complete spec for €54,623

BMW 318d ES 141bhp - €44,600 (does this include delivery?)
Metallic - €1075
Leather - €2460
Xenons - €1260 (if you need them)
Radio Upgrade - is it needed?
Alloys - Std
Climate Control - €1075
Isofix - €130
Front Armrest - €215
High Gloss Shadow Line - €1,130
Interior Aluminium - €430
Leather S/Wheel - Std?
Upgrade to MUFU S/wheel - €215
Floor mats - €145
Rear Park Assist - €575
Alarm - €Std
Cruise Control - €360
Bluetooth Integration - €1075
And the same complete spec for the 318d is €54,745

Not saying one is cheaper/dearer/better than the other. Based on current pricing, both are pretty competitive with each other imo...

I think if you base it on the SE it isn't as close, but I would consider the xenons on the audi as needed as they have made it so my making such a big deal of them but not required on the Bmw. Also the high gloss shadow line isn't required. It is equivalent to the sline interior pack on the audi not the std spec. You have also left out the requirement to pay ~ 900 to get climate control with a display which most people would consider very basic. So I stick by my 2-3k difference. Will update with the specs I used later. However as I said the audi will come down 10% in July, the BMW 14% and will be in a lower tax bracket also. IMO audi will need to buck up their ideas and options cost to compete.

Another point would be the ipod integration at 400 or so in the bmw, ah the audi is similar you say for ipod, except you need to pay for satnav to be allowed get it!!

Also the sline v msport costs are a world apart based on latest information, getting toward a 5k diff at the moment.

MercMad

Audi's have always been under specced and expensive to option, so nothing has changed ( multi function wheel is optional ?? )

They are an inferior car to a Passat so why bother. Audi like to think they compete with BMW and Merc but they certainly dont in this class. Even the A5 lacks equipment that the CLK, launched in 2002, has as standard !

I'm not anti Audi either but its just too little for the money, and the quality took a nosedive with the last model too. The original A4 was a bland but well built quality motor, but they haven't been there since. BTW the original A4 was significantly cheaper to buy the the 3 or the C !

Like many of you I am curious as to why E92 turns everything into a discussion about emissions and how BMW are so far ahead of Merc, however he is quite right. Now Merc may launch some new engines soon but after July I could buy a used 530d, which would be similarly priced to an E-Class or CLK, and the road tax will be within a few bob of a pre July 08 200Kompressor !

Unless that changes my next car will be a BMW !

I wouldn't buy an Audi as they are simply not in the same class as the other Germans, on any level. The A5 cannot comete with the 3 and the CLK is simply nicer, despite its age !

I do like the A6 and I would take an A8 over an S-Class anyday !

E92

MercMad wrote: »

Like many of you I am curious as to why E92 turns everything into a discussion about emissions and how BMW are so far ahead of Merc, however he is quite right. Now Merc may launch some new engines soon but after July I could buy a used 530d, which would be similarly priced to an E-Class or CLK, and the road tax will be within a few bob of a pre July 08 200Kompressor!

Not only that, but you could buy a petrol 6 pot 5 series and it will be in the same VRT bracket as the 530d(with the slushbox of course).

The reason I keep mentioning emissions is very simple really: in 5 months time anything registered will be VRT'd and road taxed on them so from that point of view they are extremely important. Before december, it only mattered to eco mentalists, but now it is going to matter in terms of how much money must be shelled out to the Government when you buy and every year when you tax them. It will make some cars very good value for money, and others seem extremely overpriced.

As for Audi, I've no pre disposition against them, the only one I don't like is the A3 and that is because it is a VW Golf or if I were to be extremly crude a Skoda Octavia in a fancier frock. The bigger ones are not nearly as heavily based on a VW, so I've nothing against them there, I really liked the look of them before they changed the grille for that big ugly yoke you see these days, and as for Mercs, I always thought they were overpriced, but all the old ones lasted forever, whereas the new ones are well known for not being good at all, and they keep trying to be like a BMW these days, and I'm sorry but if I want a car that's like a BMW then I'll buy a BMW. I like Mercs that look like tanks and were extremely elegant like the W123 or W140 and were as well made as them too, but these days you're paying for a badge and nothing more IMO.

MercMad

The reason I keep mentioning emissions is very simple really: in 5 months time anything registered will be VRT'd and road taxed on them so from that point of view they are extremely important. Before december, it only mattered to eco mentalists, but now it is going to matter in terms of how much money must be shelled out to the Government when you buy and every year when you tax them. It will make some cars very good value for money, and others seem extremely overpriced.

..........yeah I know, I wasn't really having a go !

Appreciate the info !

RedorDead

MercMad wrote: »

Audi's have always been under specced and expensive to option, so nothing has changed ( multi function wheel is optional ?? )

They are an inferior car to a Passat so why bother. Audi like to think they compete with BMW and Merc but they certainly dont in this class. Even the A5 lacks equipment that the CLK, launched in 2002, has as standard !
I'm not anti Audi either but its just too little for the money, and the quality took a nosedive with the last model too. The original A4 was a bland but well built quality motor, but they haven't been there since. BTW the original A4 was significantly cheaper to buy the the 3 or the C !

Example of this please???

Also, drive the passat, drive the new A4 and then formulate your opinion again

-Chris-

RedorDead wrote: »

Example of this please???

+1

MercMad wrote: »

Audi's have always been under specced and expensive to option, so nothing has changed ( multi function wheel is optional ?? )

MUFU is optional on Audi & BMW as per my spec. Is it standard on C-Class?

MercMad wrote: »

I'm not anti Audi either but its just too little for the money, and the quality took a nosedive with the last model too. The original A4 was a bland but well built quality motor, but they haven't been there since. BTW the original A4 was significantly cheaper to buy the the 3 or the C !

Build quality is still very good for BMW, Audi (& VW), especially compared to recent Mercs

MercMad wrote: »

I wouldn't buy an Audi as they are simply not in the same class as the other Germans, on any level. The A5 cannot comete with the 3 and the CLK is simply nicer, despite its age !

A very subjective statement...

copacetic wrote: »

I think if you base it on the SE it isn't as close, but I would consider the xenons on the audi as needed as they have made it so my making such a big deal of them but not required on the Bmw. Also the high gloss shadow line isn't required. It is equivalent to the sline interior pack on the audi not the std spec. You have also left out the requirement to pay ~ 900 to get climate control with a display which most people would consider very basic. So I stick by my 2-3k difference. Will update with the specs I used later. However as I said the audi will come down 10% in July, the BMW 14% and will be in a lower tax bracket also. IMO audi will need to buck up their ideas and options cost to compete.

I was merely trying to get like-with-like. I wouldn't bother with Xenons on either car, my driving doesn't need it.
I'm not sure what the High Gloss Shadow Line is, I presumed it was an exterior sprinkling of bits, apologies.
Climate control is standard, the display you refer to is the MMI and not required for Cllimate. Also it's available from €547, included in a radio upgrade.
I'm waiting for the post-July Audi price lists just like the rest of you, so I'm not taking that into account in my comparisons.

copacetic wrote: »

IMO audi will need to buck up their ideas and options cost to compete.

Not sure what's meant by this...

copacetic wrote: »

Another point would be the ipod integration at 400 or so in the bmw, ah the audi is similar you say for ipod, except you need to pay for satnav to be allowed get it!!

iPod needs Sat Nav. We're not happy with that either, it's a pain in the arse.
You do get an SD slot on the Concert radio (standard on the A5, €547 on the A4), so you can carry a 4GB stick of songs (or several, they're only €30ish. A relative bargain compared to buying an iPod. I've always been a Creative Zen kinda guy anyway). Most of my customers are happy enough with using an SD card. NONE of them have decided not to buy an A4 just because they can't hook up their iPod...

copacetic wrote: »

Also the sline v msport costs are a world apart based on latest information, getting toward a 5k diff at the moment.

S-Line Sports Pack is about €5k, how much is the M-Sport pack?

E92 wrote: »

Yes but the point surely is is that the old A4 and all previous Audis were a good deal better value than their BMW counterparts, which in turn were much better value than Mercs. This has now disappeared so, no matter what way you spin it, they are no longer that good on the value for money count.

Audi used to be cheaper than BMW & Merc, they also used to be glorified VWs. They're trying to get away from that at the moment.
They were in the Volvo/Saab bracket and now they're mentioned in the same breath as Merc and BMW - that's a hard trick to pull! You'll see them differentiate more over the next few years and really bring the fight to Merc and BMW (BMW in particular).

E92 wrote: »

I mean to order a car with 12k of options and not put in the most important option by a mile(bar metalic paint), leather, is absolutely crazy IMO,

Again, this is a Model Introduction spec. I GUARANTEE that no punter will ever walk in and spec one of these up for themselves. It's not spec'ed to sell as a complete car, it's spec'ed to sell options on other cars.

E92 wrote: »

an option that along with the all important metallic paint(and increasingly an Automatic gearbox, though that could well change in July) is well known for making cars far more desirable and therefore more valuable when the time comes to selling on.

Auto is available on all Audis, it's just not on this particular (admittedly odd-ball) spec.

E92 wrote: »

As for post July, the only thing we know is that BMW has confirmed that the VRT reductions will be passed on to the consumer in full(of course they may well put in extra equipment, but that's no bad thing, I mean things like leather should be standard anyway and are a popular option), and that the BMW will be in 16% VRT compared to the Audi's 20% VRT(and the higher road tax that is part and parcel of higher VRT from July). On the other hand, the new 'e' models from Audi will surely negate the point about the BMWs being better value for money(they have CO2 emissions similar to BMWs with EfficientDynamics), so there is a lot to play for there!

I'm hoping the 'e' models do their job, but I'm saying nothing until ALL the distributors release their new price lists.

E92 wrote: »

I'm not going to get into the specifics of which is the better car, I have no idea what the B8 A4 is like, other than to say I was always a fan of the B7 till they facelifted it(I thought they ruined the look of it when they did that, the pre facelift was a fantastic looking car)

I think a lot of this debate is becoming very, very subjective, and I don't think that was the point of the thread. That three of the main contributors at the moment are AudiChris, MercMad and E92 should speak volumes. Let's wind the rants down a little...
I've always loved the 3 and 5 Series, they're fantastic to drive.
The Merc saloons have always dominated their niche, there's few production cars that have as great a sense of occassion as a well spec'ed Merc saloon.
I love Audi, I have since the BTCC days of the 90s. That's why I chose a job where I get to sit and look at them all day.
Cars are emotive, you could stack up a million reasons why your car is better than mine, if I believe that my car represents me, does what I need it to do and conveys the image I want to project, then you'll never convince me otherwise! Each to their own...

MercMad

RedorDead wrote: »

Example of this please???

Also, drive the passat, drive the new A4 and then formulate your opinion again

...........I haven't driven the latest A4, but we have a '06 version here and a '07 Passat !

Both are diesel and the Passat is better value !

I have NO intention of taking a new A4 for a test drive, it will never be THAT good !

As for examples, and I know you will come back to me with examples of where the A5 scores over the CLK but these details should not have been missed from the basic spec.

Auto headlights
Auto wipers
Rear opening windows -electric
Folding rear seats 50-50
Automatic seatbelt presenter
Multi disc CD player
Auto fold rear headrests
Speed limiter

E92

RedorDead wrote: »

Id love to see what youre comparing as the standard 3 series doesnt even come with foglights or alloys, you need to move upto the ES to get these. Both are standard on the A4.

Drive the B8 A4 and youll see its a big improvement over the B7 A4 and most reviews ive read (@ Robamerc) put it above its competitors.

And the only 3 series without alloys and foglights is the soon to be discontinued 316i! The 318i/d, and 320i/d are ES spec minimum these days.

The reviews of the B8 A4 I've read say usually that it is nearly as good, as good or slightly better than the 3 series(the previous favourite). So they're pretty much as good as each other if the motoring press is to be believed.

-Chris-

MercMad wrote: »

As for examples, and I know you will come back to me with examples of where the A5 scores over the CLK but these details should not have been missed from the basic spec.

Auto headlights - included as standard
Auto wipers - included as standard
Rear opening windows -electric - not needed, it's a coupe
Folding rear seats 50-50 - included as standard
Automatic seatbelt presenter - is this really a legitimate concern?
Multi disc CD player - no. MP3 CD Single disk player with SD card reader as standard.
Auto fold rear headrests - Is this necessary? Does anyone do this other than Merc?
Speed limiter - Is this really a legitimate concern?

You missed rear parking sensors, cruise control, Xenon headlights, front fogs, MMI (like the Comand system), etc.

-Chris-

E92 wrote: »

The reviews of the B8 A4 I've read say usually that it is nearly as good, as good or slightly better than the 3 series(the previous favourite). So they're pretty much as good as each other if the motoring press is to be believed.

It's a close one now - FWD won't compete with RWD when we're talking proper driving dynamics, but I'm glad Audi are getting close.

The rest - styling, interior design, brand image - is in the eye of the beholder. Reliability, residuals and (current) pricing should be level-pegging on both cars.

MarkN

The A5 is still mad money though Chris. I NEARLY bought one.

A5 3.0TDI Quattro S-Line (inside and out) with leather, 19s etc (no MMI sat nav) was nearly 80k.

You can buy a 335i BMW for less, heading for nearly 70bhp more, better spec etc.

A poxy start button in an A5 is a grand whereas BMW throw it in for free - and I'm by no means a big BMW fan, I've had 5 VAG cars.

MercMad

AudiChris wrote: »

Auto headlights - included as standard
Auto wipers - included as standard
Rear opening windows -electric - not needed, it's a coupe
Folding rear seats 50-50 - included as standard
Automatic seatbelt presenter - is this really a legitimate concern?
Multi disc CD player - no. MP3 CD Single disk player with SD card reader as standard.
Auto fold rear headrests - Is this necessary? Does anyone do this other than Merc?
Speed limiter - Is this really a legitimate concern?

You missed rear parking sensors, cruise control, Xenon headlights, front fogs, MMI (like the Comand system), etc.

.........Is that the confirmed standard spec ? I have been checking for a while now, including some info from the A5's launch and from what I can see on the net !

BTW when you say "Rear opening windows -electric - not needed, it's a coupe"............the CLK is a Coupe too, in case you hadn't noticed, and it makes a World of difference to be able to lower the rear windows completely ! At least you can vent them open on the 3 series.

Automatic seatbelt presenter - is this really a legitimate concern?

.....its a major conern when you look at the target market. Surely as a salesman you can see that folk do not want their new car to be without features that their old one had. Its a very very handy feature.........likewise with the folding headrests !

The speed limiter is neither her 'nor there, but the fact is it IS there as standard on all Mercs as is Cruise Control and its only a software issue, so it wouldn't cost Audi to include it !

I accept the music system, but thats 5 years progress, I'm just surprised that they left out certain things that have been around for years and years, its juts not acceptable on a car in that pricerange !

Tragedy

OT but you have good taste chris, although I always had a thing for the s40 in BTCC too

Still cant beat early to mid 90's w201/202 DTM mercs for me though

MarkN

MercMad wrote: »

.........At least you can vent them open on the 3 series.

Not on the new model you can't. Was fairly surprised when I copped that.

MercMad

MUFU is optional on Audi & BMW as per my spec. Is it standard on C-Class?

........has been since 2001 !

Build quality is still very good for BMW, Audi (& VW), especially compared to recent Mercs

........I wouldn't defend Merc here, but I do think the quality problems have been seriously inflated. I have direct experience with 5 new Audis in as many years and they have all had serious quality issues too !

I wouldn't buy an Audi as they are simply not in the same class as the other Germans, on any level. The A5 cannot comete with the 3 and the CLK is simply nicer, despite its age !

A very subjective statement...

.....well okay I agree it IS subjective. I understand the slight subtle differences between each marque AND each model. I for example wouldn't ever buy and A4 or a 3series purely due to their image...........or should I say percieved image.

However I do like the looks of the A5 and A8, I may well buy a 5 series next, dont like the new C-Class at all and wouldn't waste my money on a brash looking S-Class when the A8 is much more cool.

I like the current CLK, though its getting old, but the new one may not look as nice, and the CLS is shaped like a banana whilst the 6 series is the ugliest car in the World !!

-Chris-

MarkN wrote: »

The A5 is still mad money though Chris. I NEARLY bought one.

A5 3.0TDI Quattro S-Line (inside and out) with leather, 19s etc (no MMI sat nav) was nearly 80k.

You can buy a 335i BMW for less, heading for nearly 70bhp more, better spec etc.

A poxy start button in an A5 is a grand whereas BMW throw it in for free - and I'm by no means a big BMW fan, I've had 5 VAG cars.

It's starting from €50,900 on the road, another €5-6k will put a nice spec into it - leather, alloy upgrade, metallic etc.
If you go for a €65k car and put €25k of extras into it, it'll cost €80k... You must have been building a massive spec!

BMW 335i is petrol, you can't compare diesel and petrol from a horsepower perspective.
330d is 228bhp and €64,000
A5 3.0TDi is 238bhp and €65,000
335d is 281bhp and €75,000
335i is 302bhp and €66,500

Car is started when you push the key into the "recepticle". No need for a start button. If a lack of a start button stops you spending €80k, I feel you're being a little over-analytical.
What you're thinking of is the advanced key where the car unlocks itself when you get near it and locks when you walk away. I don't believe this is standard on the BMW either.

-Chris-

MercMad wrote: »

.........Is that the confirmed standard spec ? I have been checking for a while now, including some info from the A5's launch and from what I can see on the net !!

Yep, confirmed for defo. If you go to the 4 pot engines you lose the mufu s/wheel and get smaller alloys, but everything else mentioned is standard.

MercMad wrote: »

.....its a major conern when you look at the target market. Surely as a salesman you can see that folk do not want their new car to be without features that their old one had. Its a very very handy feature.........likewise with the folding headrests !!

Audi's target market with the A5 & new A4 is BMW drivers. Conquest sales from BMW are where it's at. Winning over Merc drivers is not as important.
I agree that the seat-belt presenter is a handy feature, I don't agree it's a deal-breaker.
Also with the rear headrests - at their lowest position the A5 & 3 Series headrests don't obstruct view, if you have passengers they rarely adjust them anyway. I'd expect the same is true with the Mercs - if you sat in the back of someone's Merc and the rear headrests were folded down, would you even bother flipping them up?

MercMad wrote: »

The speed limiter is neither her 'nor there, but the fact is it IS there as standard on all Mercs as is Cruise Control and its only a software issue, so it wouldn't cost Audi to include it !!

The Audis get 2 speed warning buzzers that will warn you when you exceed either of the two pre-set speeds. I've had one customer tell me they're sticking with Merc because it has a speed limiter rather than a speed warning signal.

Is the speed limiter a possible safety hazard? Is it possible to forget you set it at 120kmph and then when you're overtaking someone doing 100kmph and you're accelerating hard to get around them, will you bounce off the limiter? I've never used it, but if you're getting down to the level of detail of which has auto folding headrests, I'd site the speed limiter as a concern...

RedorDead

MercMad wrote: »

...........I haven't driven the latest A4, but we have a '06 version here and a '07 Passat !

Both are diesel and the Passat is better value !

I have NO intention of taking a new A4 for a test drive, it will never be THAT good !

As for examples, and I know you will come back to me with examples of where the A5 scores over the CLK but these details should not have been missed from the basic spec.

Auto headlights - Standard on A5 (called light sensor)
Auto wipers - Standard on A5 (called rain sensors)
Rear opening windows -electric - no need on Coupe
Folding rear seats 50-50 - Standard on A5
Automatic seatbelt presenter - No idea wtf this is???
Multi disc CD player - Not standard on CLK either.
Auto fold rear headrests - Not std on A5 - no great customer benefit
Speed limiter - Cruise control standard on A5

Plus the CLK does not have 17" alloys (16's only), Xenons or rear park assist, all standard on the A5.

Also you might be right and the Passat might be better value but your initial point was that the A4 was an inferior car. Very different points.

MarkN

You can compare petrol and diesel all day long when you are comparing the prices of two cars competing with each other. The point was, the BMW is far better value.

Any option I specced was to make the A5 comparable to an M sport BMW and it still fell short.

And no, I'm not talking about keyless entry. If I am wrong, fair enough but from what I gathered from studying the brochures, you got a typical ignition key as standard and the key which can be pushed into the dash was 1,000 quid.

Audi charge 3 grand for leather, BMW charge 2k. It's not a personal attack or anything, you just sell the things but I think Audi need to get over themselves sometimes when it comes to price lists.

AudiChris wrote: »

A5 3.0TDi is 238bhp and €65,000

335i is 302bhp and €66,500

So 1,500 extra and I get a petrol engined, twin turbo car close on E46 M3 performance or a standard A5 3.0TDI. It just doesn't scream value at me!