New Audi A4 - Launched today

Gegerty

pburns wrote: »

I'd say it's a contradicion - for the time being at least.

The fact that Audi have to launch special low-bhp 'e' models is a cop-out. BMW can maintain high bhp/low CO2, why can't Audi?

Also I see VAG have rehashed the tired old tractor engine that is the 1.9TDI and used it for the 'Bluemotion' sub-brand...

So despite the largely positive VRT changes the Irish will still plump in large droves for the noisy, low-powered, low-spec A4 model
- 'sure as long as it has a swanky badge to impress the neighbours what matter?':rolleyes:

I thought Audi had good diesel engines? There's no doubt BMW are ahead of the game on emissions but I think the swanky badge brigade belong to BMW! And some people like cars with working indicators and mirrors if you know what I mean.

Personally I'm interested in test driving the 2.0 TDI 120 bhp e before I decide to buy, for the more relaxed driver its not under powered. We'll see about prices come July. Call me a sceptic but I'm very doubtful that the massive reductions in the BMW will be passed on to the consumer. I'm guessing that come July there will be little difference in price between Audi and BMW.

-Chris-

Gegerty wrote: »

I thought Audi had good diesel engines? There's no doubt BMW are ahead of the game on emissions but I think the swanky badge brigade belong to BMW! And some people like cars with working indicators and mirrors if you know what I mean.

Personally I'm interested in test driving the 2.0 TDI 120 bhp e before I decide to buy, for the more relaxed driver its not under powered. We'll see about prices come July. Call me a sceptic but I'm very doubtful that the massive reductions in the BMW will be passed on to the consumer. I'm guessing that come July there will be little difference in price between Audi and BMW.

2.0TDI 120BHP E Model will begin production in week 22, which means we'll see them in the flesh in mid-June. Pricing won't be released until closer to then (in all reality, only post-July pricing will matter anyway).

It'll be similar in performance to the current 1.9TDi 115bhp, but it'll be more refined.

The concept of the E models is that they're aimed at being as low fuel consumption as possible, so I don't expect to see any high-performance E's. They include both engine and aerodynamic tweaks to increase the fuel economy.


On a different note: BMW have sneaked slightly ahead with the Efficient Dynamics (and they should be commended for it), but I don't see the need to bash every other make for not thinking of it!
Somebody's always first with everything, then either everyone else catches up or falls behind.
BMW don't have hybrid technology or flexifuel technology (afaik), they went the efficient dynamics route, and it's paying off. Audi/Mercedes/Lexus etc. will have to match it or improve on it, either copying it or developing their own fuel efficient technologies.
- Audi's refining exisiting technology and has stop/start and hybrid in the works.
- Lexus is rolling hybrid across it's range and is being very successful in it.
- I don't know where Merc are with all this stuff.
- Saab and Volvo have flexifuel.

At some point in the future we'll be able to look back and say, "wow, wasn't <insert technology here> a brilliant invention, I can't believe anyone thought <rival technology> would ever compete".
Until then, let's try and tone down the bashing/fanboy-ism...

R.O.R

AudiChris wrote: »

On a different note: BMW have sneaked slightly ahead with the Efficient Dynamics (and they should be commended for it), but I don't see the need to bash every other make for not thinking of it!

I seem to remember reading in Autoexpress 3 or 4 years ago about Citroen or Peugeot launching Stop / Start technology in one of their small cars (could even have been Toyota), so that idea has been around for a while. Admittedly BMW have perfected it and added regenerative breaking etc. for the effecient dynamics, but I don't think all the credit should go their way.

P.S. It's a bit weird when a BMW dies on you for the 1st time at traffic lights. My instinctive reaction was to dip the clutch again to stop the engine stalling.

copacetic

AudiChris wrote: »

2.0TDI 120BHP E Model will begin production in week 22, which means we'll see them in the flesh in mid-June. Pricing won't be released until closer to then (in all reality, only post-July pricing will matter anyway).

It'll be similar in performance to the current 1.9TDi 115bhp, but it'll be more refined.

The concept of the E models is that they're aimed at being as low fuel consumption as possible, so I don't expect to see any high-performance E's. They include both engine and aerodynamic tweaks to increase the fuel economy.


On a different note: BMW have sneaked slightly ahead with the Efficient Dynamics (and they should be commended for it), but I don't see the need to bash every other make for not thinking of it!
Somebody's always first with everything, then either everyone else catches up or falls behind.
BMW don't have hybrid technology or flexifuel technology (afaik), they went the efficient dynamics route, and it's paying off. Audi/Mercedes/Lexus etc. will have to match it or improve on it, either copying it or developing their own fuel efficient technologies.
- Audi's refining exisiting technology and has stop/start and hybrid in the works.
- Lexus is rolling hybrid across it's range and is being very successful in it.
- I don't know where Merc are with all this stuff.
- Saab and Volvo have flexifuel.

At some point in the future we'll be able to look back and say, "wow, wasn't <insert technology here> a brilliant invention, I can't believe anyone thought <rival technology> would ever compete".
Until then, let's try and tone down the bashing/fanboy-ism...

i don't think it's fanboyism chris, it is just true, bmw are miles ahead, not slightly. for instance this e model A4 will likely be the same price as the BMW 318d with same emissions but much less power and speed.

E92

Remember that EfficientDynamics models actually brought a power increase ironically in the case of 4 cylinder and petrol powered 6 cylinder models(excluding the 335i).

And BMW haven't done gear ratio revisions and special aerodynamic tweaks yet to their cars, or the bits of aluminium here and there, which are a feature of Audi e models yet, so there is nothing stopping BMW from improving their figures even more, and putting them even further ahead(their petrols provide lower emissions than other makers diesels and even hybrid models), never mind the diesel models.

BMW don't seem to have any plans for E85 cars, but there are plenty of doubts about how good E85 even is these days(that said I think if they could sort out the where they source E85 from issue, then they would prove a dramatic reduction in CO2 instantly), though they might, but lets wait and see. If they do, you can be sure I'll say it here:D!

As others have said, there is nothing new about ED, bits and pieces have been found on other cars for years, but BMW were the first to put it all together and fit it as standard for all their cars now bar 7 series, X3 and Z4 (and the M models I think) which are the only BMWs without ED(but with the Z4 being replaced next year, and the new 7 series and X3 coming within 2 years, all BMWs will have it soon(bar the M versions I think).

BMW will have an X6 hybrid next year, and it will be 20% more efficient than the non hybrid petrol model. They're only doing it really as a marketing tool IMO(though the next generation 5 series will also have a hybrid option, as will the next X3), after all the running gear for it didn't come from the joint venture with Merc and GM for the good of BMWs health now, did it?

-Chris-

copacetic wrote: »

i don't think it's fanboyism chris, it is just true, bmw are miles ahead, not slightly. for instance this e model A4 will likely be the same price as the BMW 318d with same emissions but much less power and speed.

Yep, BMW have really gotten their engine technology bang on. I think it's brilliant and it raises the bar for everyone else. BMWs diesels especially have ALWAYS been smooth, fast, powerful - in a word Excellent!

I'm just amazed at the amount of "well if BMW can do it, why can't everyone else?" that appears in threads - whether it's about VRT, specs or CO2 and fuel efficiency in general. They have a really strong fanbase here...

pburns

copacetic wrote: »

i don't think it's fanboyism chris, it is just true, bmw are miles ahead, not slightly. for instance this e model A4 will likely be the same price as the BMW 318d with same emissions but much less power and speed.

+1
My comments above are not based on any type of BMW fan-boyism. Read some of my previous posts and you'll see I am NOT a BMW fan!

However whereas other companies seem to regularly replace their engines with new, improved versions, VAG introduces new engines but keeps some of the old ones in production long after they should have been put out to pasture. They then put them into otherwise dynamically excellent cars (the aforementioned 1.9 TDI springs to mind - the VW arm are coming up with yet anther rehash of this engine in the Bluemotion models!). This undermines their credibility to my mind...

This cynicism is also evident in these bull**** 'e' models that are blown into the weeds by their nearest competitor.

copacetic

AudiChris wrote: »

Yep, BMW have really gotten their engine technology bang on. I think it's brilliant and it raises the bar for everyone else. BMWs diesels especially have ALWAYS been smooth, fast, powerful - in a word Excellent!

I'm just amazed at the amount of "well if BMW can do it, why can't everyone else?" that appears in threads - whether it's about VRT, specs or CO2 and fuel efficiency in general. They have a really strong fanbase here...

well would agree with that, i'm sure audi will catch up in a year or too, but it may be too late for the likes of me!

RedorDead

pburns wrote: »

I'd say it's a contradicion - for the time being at least.

The fact that Audi have to launch special low-bhp 'e' models is a cop-out. BMW can maintain high bhp/low CO2, why can't Audi?

Also I see VAG have rehashed the tired old tractor engine that is the 1.9TDI and used it for the 'Bluemotion' sub-brand...

So despite the largely positive VRT changes the Irish will still plump in large droves for the noisy, low-powered, low-spec A4 model
- 'sure as long as it has a swanky badge to impress the neighbours what matter?':rolleyes:

Point 1. 1.9TDi is finished on A4 and is not coming back. 2.0TDI Common rail and upwards from now on.

Point 2. In Ireland buyers in all marques always migrate towards the cheapest model on offer. This will apply to the new e model and applys to all brands. BMW sold nearly 1000 316's last year. Badge snobbery extends far beyond Audi Mr Burns.

RedorDead

copacetic wrote: »

i don't think it's fanboyism chris, it is just true, bmw are miles ahead, not slightly. for instance this e model A4 will likely be the same price as the BMW 318d with same emissions but much less power and speed.

The A4 e model will not compete with any current BMW model it will be under any current BMW model in terms of BHP and price. For example:

2.0TDI with 143BHP competes with 318D with 143BHP
2.0TDI with 170BHP competes with 320D with 177BHP

2.7TDI with 325D and 3.0TDI with 330D etc etc

All Audi A4 engines will be priced on a level or under competing BMW engines come July 1.

The 2.0TDI e model could very well be priced sub 35K come July 1 a 318D will be 39500 which will be still €500 more than the equivalant engined A4.

Bit of research wouldnt go astray lads!

E92

320d ES comes in at €40,781 in July(their MD said so in the Auto Ireland magazine), the 318d should be around the €38k mark.

Though both BMWs will cost roughly 50% as much to tax as any 2.0 TDI A4(bar the less powerful 120 e model) every year cause of their lower CO2 emissions.

Badge snobbery is alive and well, always has been and always probably will be, the fact that the volume sellers in prestige cars are always the cheapest proves this.

A non e 2.0 TDI A4 is in the same VRT and tax category as the petrol BMW rivals, and the petrol BMWs have the same power and would be a lot cheaper(and only a shade less economical as well as being lower polluters of CO2 than their diesel Audi rivals, A4 2.0 TDI 144 g/km, 51.4 mpg, 318i, 47.9 mpg and 142 g/km CO2), I mean you can't argue the fact that for only a small bit less economy, the 318 petrol will come in at around €36k, compared to around €39k for a post July 2.0 TDI 143 A4.

I'm not getting into a debate about which is best, I have yet to sample an A4, so I have no intention of making a judgement about it till such time as I do, other than to repeat what I said above and say that any A4 will similar emissions to a BMW is either comparing diesel of Audi vs petrol of BMW or else is the e model which has less power and torque than an equivalent BMW(and still higher emissions too).

RedorDead

E92 wrote: »

320d ES comes in at €40,781 in July(their MD said so in the Auto Ireland magazine), the 318d should be around the €38k mark.

Think i may have quoted the price for the touring version above

Take your point on the petrols though. But interestingly the new A4 gets a 2.0TFSI 211BHP engine that will fall into the 20% tax bracket from June production. Thats plenty lower than the 325 with 173g of co2.

E92

RedorDead wrote: »

Take your point on the petrols though. But interestingly the new A4 gets a 2.0TFSI 211BHP engine that will fall into the 20% tax bracket from June production. Thats plenty lower than the 325 with 173g of co2.

At 170 g/km for the Saloon and Coupé, the 325i narrowly escapes 28% VRT for these. 24% VRT and €430 road tax, and there is absolutely no CO2 penalty for choosing an Automatic gearbox either.

And the 2.0 TFSI A4 has only 4 cylinders and 1.0 litres less than the 325i, so of course it should be better than the BMW(incidentally the 1.8 TFSI A4 is only 1 g/km better than the 325i at the moment, and unlike the 325i, there is a VRT and road tax penalty for choosing an Auto):D!

Though it must be a lot better than the 1.8 TFSI then if it gets into a lower VRT band than the smaller engine.

And since we're talking about efficiency, look at this diesel X5 hybrid which manages 43.5 mpg(it has only 4 cylinders and 2.0 litres though, and the same engine in a 1 series manages 54.3 mpg and only 138 g/km of CO2)!

Biro

E92 wrote: »

At 170 g/km for the Saloon and Coupé, the 325i narrowly escapes 28% VRT for these. 24% VRT and €430 road tax, and there is absolutely no CO2 penalty for choosing an Automatic gearbox either.

And the 2.0 TFSI A4 has only 4 cylinders and 1.0 litres less than the 325i, so of course it should be better than the BMW(incidentally the 1.8 TFSI A4 is only 1 g/km better than the 325i at the moment, and unlike the 325i, there is a VRT and road tax penalty for choosing an Auto):D!

Though it must be a lot better than the 1.8 TFSI then if it gets into a lower VRT band than the smaller engine.

And since we're talking about efficiency, look at this diesel X5 hybrid which manages 43.5 mpg(it has only 4 cylinders and 2.0 litres though, and the same engine in a 1 series manages 54.3 mpg and only 138 g/km of CO2)!

Massive difference in test figures and real world stuff though. I'd put money on you achieving a lot closer to the 1-series figure than the X5 figure in real world driving.

E92

Biro wrote: »

Massive difference in test figures and real world stuff though. I'd put money on you achieving a lot closer to the 1-series figure than the X5 figure in real world driving.

Shouldn't that be the other way around;)?

Of course, this diesel X5 hybrid has 1.0 litres and 2 cylinders less to be feeding than a 3.0d(soon to be rebadged xDrive30d AFAIK), which I reckon accounts for a large part of the 10 mpg extra it does over the 3.0d.

Gegerty

RedorDead wrote: »

The A4 e model will not compete with any current BMW model it will be under any current BMW model in terms of BHP and price. For example:

2.0TDI with 143BHP competes with 318D with 143BHP
2.0TDI with 170BHP competes with 320D with 177BHP

2.7TDI with 325D and 3.0TDI with 330D etc etc

All Audi A4 engines will be priced on a level or under competing BMW engines come July 1.

The 2.0TDI e model could very well be priced sub 35K come July 1 a 318D will be 39500 which will be still €500 more than the equivalant engined A4.

Bit of research wouldnt go astray lads!

The reason I'm considering the A4 e is because it gives me the same BHP as the petrol, but its going to be cheaper. I don't tear around, I prefer to keep a steady pace and take it easy so I'm not looking for 140/170 BHP. I agree people are not comparing like with like. You cannot compare it to the 318d or 320d but I will be comparing it to the 316i based on price range.

E92

Gegerty wrote: »

The reason I'm considering the A4 e is because it gives me the same BHP as the petrol, but its going to be cheaper. I don't tear around, I prefer to keep a steady pace and take it easy so I'm not looking for 140/170 BHP. I agree people are not comparing like with like. You cannot compare it to the 318d or 320d but I will be comparing it to the 316i based on price range.

316i will be consigned to the history books come July. It was only ever sold to get around our VRT system(and actually has a higher pre VRT price than the 318i), and has identical CO2 to the 318i.

copacetic

RedorDead wrote: »

The A4 e model will not compete with any current BMW model it will be under any current BMW model in terms of BHP and price. For example:

2.0TDI with 143BHP competes with 318D with 143BHP
2.0TDI with 170BHP competes with 320D with 177BHP

2.7TDI with 325D and 3.0TDI with 330D etc etc

All Audi A4 engines will be priced on a level or under competing BMW engines come July 1.

The 2.0TDI e model could very well be priced sub 35K come July 1 a 318D will be 39500 which will be still €500 more than the equivalant engined A4.

Bit of research wouldnt go astray lads!

and when are you actually going to do yours a bit better?
The A4 will certainly not be coming in level or under the BMW from July 1 based on the vrt changes..

RedorDead

copacetic wrote: »

and when are you actually going to do yours a bit better?
The A4 will certainly not be coming in level or under the BMW from July 1 based on the vrt changes..

Just have to trust me on this one!!

-Chris-

RedorDead wrote: »

Just have to trust me on this one!!

intriguing...

demon3

I was in Joe Duffys a few weeks back. They confirmed the drop in July for the 320d & 520d will by 7500 for Manual and 5000 for Auto. They also said BMW Ireland plan to respec the cars in September to beingthe prices back up (addition features, mandatory service packages etc).

Audi will drop by 4000 according to the Audi dealer.

You cannot really compare the A4 and 3 series as lie for like, the 3 Series wins hands down on engine and driving experience, the A4 wins on space and comfort. If you want a quick car thats fun to drive get the beemer, if you was a comfortable car with loads of space get the Audi. In everything else they are both close.

I am a comfort and space guy and am expecting my A4 2.0TDI Sport in May...

E92

demon3 wrote: »

They also said BMW Ireland plan to respec the cars in September to beingthe prices back up (addition features, mandatory service packages etc).

I hope they don't, I really hope they don't....

I'll believe it when I see it.

Though if they do, and I seriously doubt they will(some dealers said BMW wouldn't be cutting prices too, and wee saw how wrong they were), nothing stopping anyone from hopping across the water and getting one there with the lower spec and lower price(Irish spec BMWs are identucal to UK ones bar the fact ours have km/h speedos and we can get the 316i).

demon3

E92 wrote: »

I hope they don't, I really hope they don't....

Though if they do, nothing stopping anyone from hopping across the water and getting one there with the lower spec and lower price.

To quote the sales guy, "BMW will not let their customers suffer from devaluing after the VRT change, this is an exclusive brand with loyality".

As always could have been a sales pitch to force me into placing an order for the 5 series I was looking at. There ia a new 5 Series out 2009, the spy shots I seen look completely different to the current model... Less radically different then the norm..

E92

demon3 wrote: »

To quote the sales guy, "BMW will not let their customers suffer from devaluing after the VRT change, this is an exclusive brand with loyality".

But the fact that they are putting down prices for a while is doing exactly that IMO. Putting up the spec as "compensation" makes all the other cars far less desirable. If you examine what he's saying you'll see he's talking through his arse.

As for being an "exclusive" brand, presumably that's why they brought in a 316i, with a 1.6 litre engine, so that it would make 3 series ownership more affordable, and get the price down cause of the much lower VRT.

And that's why they sell a 520d, which brought down the base price of 5 series ownership down by over 7 grand at the time compared to what was previously the cheapest 5 series(the 523i).

The dealer is living on cloud cuckoo land. BMW sell more cars these days than I can ever remember; they sold less than 1000 cars a year until very recently, nowadays they sell over 3,000 a year since the country became awash with money, and I haven't seen BMWs become less "exclusive", less desirable or anything like it. BMWs still have fantastic resale value, a quick search on carzone shows 520ds from 06 selling for more than the RRP of new ones, and the 06s would have had less power and would have been pre facelift too.

Hmmm, so much for BMWs being "exclusive" then:rolleyes:.

groupb

The mondeo,3 series & c class easily beat the A4 in the latest Autocar magazine roadtest!

barrymac

The reason I keep mentioning emissions is very simple really: in 5 months time anything registered will be VRT'd and road taxed on them so from that point of view they are extremely important. Before december, it only mattered to eco mentalists, but now it is going to matter in terms of how much money must be shelled out to the Government when you buy and every year when you tax them. It will make some cars very good value for money, and others seem extremely overpriced.

Why is it still considered mental to be concerned about our chidren's planet. They are going to think of us as such Neanderthals. How about this for a machine: http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/firstdrives/214476/volvo_c30.html

0-60mph: 7.0 seconds

Top speed: 135mph

Economy: 120mpg (equivalent)

CO2: 0g/km

That's a 1.6 TDI hybrid, running on biofuel

Wake up and move on people!

E92

All 3 series and X3 models have all gone up in price by €200.

This is normal as BMW always have an annual price hike, though pricing for all other models hasn't changed thus far. The X3 2.0d has been upgraded from 163 bhp to 177 bhp. It's price only went up by €200 too surprisingly, so BMW have given X3 2.0d buyers a power and torque upgrade for free. CO2 and mpg are unchanged from the less powerful 150 bhp version, which has now been discontinued.

Tragedy

Why are you posting that on a thread about the new Audi A4?

Gegerty

groupb wrote: »

The mondeo,3 series & c class easily beat the A4 in the latest Autocar magazine roadtest!

New A4 is more to do with comfort than umph. If you enjoy tearing around the roads personally I'd go for a Focus ST over any of the others. A4 is for comfort, style and a pleasurable drive.

psmate

Having gone through the thread above it seems there is quite allot of support for BMW's versus Audi. I am in the market for one or the other, not brand loyal (yet) having gone through the thread and reserched E92's prices pre/post July 1 (great job btw) I think a 320d SE would be a far better buy then the A4's offering.
I suupose price and value for money would be the big deciding factor and the impression I get is the BMW's seems to get the nod