7km of Israels wall blown up

purple'n'gold · 24-01-2008 1:07pm

Nothing is ever going to change here unless the United States stops vetoing every UN resolution even mildly criticizing Israel. They (Israel) will only stop acting the bully when their masters and defenders (the USA) tell them to.

Kev_ps3 · 24-01-2008 1:11pm

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

I don't hate the Palestinians. I just think a large proportion of them are terrorists and the rest of the population support those terrorists. As seen in the election where they voted in hamas. What kind of reaction did they expect electing hamas whose stated aim is to drive the Jews back into the sea? They don't deserve all the sympathy that the mainstream media whips up for them, nor all the international aid they get. I wonder what's the point in giving them a state then? We'll just be creating another terrorist sponsoring state overnight.

A "large proportion"?! What exactly do you mean? Have you get figures for that? What percentage would you put on it?
BTW, I dont see any difference between an Isreali soldier who on purpose kills an innocent Palestinian person and a member of Hamas who kills an innocant Jew. Except here in the west one is called a 'terrorist act' and the other is ignored.

Kev_ps3 · 24-01-2008 1:14pm

purplengold wrote: »

Nothing is ever going to change here unless the United States stops vetoing every UN resolution even mildly criticizing Israel. They (Israel) will only stop acting the bully when their masters and defenders (the USA) tell them to.

Exactly. Once they have the backing of the most powerful army in the world then they can do whatever they want. And when they have a huge influence over the media that also helps!
Hopefully a Democrat will win back the white house and they wont be backed as blindly as is the case now.

meditraitor · 24-01-2008 1:15pm

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

I don't hate the Palestinians. I just think a large proportion of them are terrorists and the rest of the population support those terrorists. As seen in the election where they voted in hamas. What kind of reaction did they expect electing hamas whose stated aim is to drive the Jews back into the sea? They don't deserve all the sympathy that the mainstream media whips up for them, nor all the international aid they get. I wonder what's the point in giving them a state then? We'll just be creating another terrorist sponsoring state overnight.

The only solution is to nuke them pesky Palestinians, then the Syrains then Iran and ..................................................

purple'n'gold · 24-01-2008 1:17pm

George Bush, in relation to the most recent Israeli destruction of Lebanon paid for with US tax payers money (unaware that he was live on TV) “Hezbollah is going to have to stop doing this sh1t”) what does it say about the American people when they elected this buffoon as their president?

purple'n'gold · 24-01-2008 1:24pm

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Exactly. Once they have the backing of the most powerful army in the world then they can do whatever they want. And when they have a huge influence over the media that also helps!
Hopefully a Democrat will win back the white house and they wont be backed as blindly as is the case now.

Sorry, I would like to think so, but it won’t change, democrat or republican their completely one sided support of Israel will always be the same. That is why there is no hope for peace in that region. European people could help a little bit, do not buy any thing made in Israel. It won’t do them any real economic harm (the USA will just pick up the tab) but it will send them a message.

Kev_ps3 · 24-01-2008 1:30pm

purplengold wrote: »

European people could help a little bit, do not buy any thing made in Israel. It won’t do them any real economic harm (the USA will just pick up the tab) but it will send them a message.

Well we did it before, remember the boycott of South African goods? It could work;)

Lemming · 24-01-2008 1:40pm

purplengold wrote: »

Sorry, I would like to think so, but it won’t change, democrat or republican their completely one sided support of Israel will always be the same. That is why there is no hope for peace in that region.

There is always hope for peace. But I digress.

The Jewish/Israeli lobby in the US has a disproportionately large amount of power , and generally speaking, no politician of note in the US can go against them for long and remain successful.

With that in mind, perhaps the only realistic way in which tacit US support of Israel can be broken is if the US wakes to the reality that not every decision undertaken regarding the middle-east is in their interest and that they are not serving their own country but someone else's. In short, the disproportionate power wielded by the Jewish/Israeli lobby in the US is also it's biggest weakness.

djpbarry · 24-01-2008 1:40pm

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

You're forgetting the living in terror part. I know I wouldn't like to even visit that part of Israel knowing that rockets could land at any time.

Would you like to visit Gaza?

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Anyway Israel has consistently said the border crossings would reopen as soon as the rockets stop.

Hamas has offered a truce on more than one occasion. When Hamas did declare a ceasefire, it was broken by the IDF.

Kaiser_Sma · 24-01-2008 2:35pm

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

I think it great that they broke down this 'wall of hate' built by the opressors. The People of Palestine could starve to death and the jews wouldnt bat an eyelid, or the west for that matter. Long live the People of Palestine, may they someday return to the land of their fore-fathers.

This is equally as frightening as the 'all palastinans promote terroism' comments.
FYI the palastinian fore fathers are just blow in's historically speaking, jewish isrealis were there first and have been there continuously since.

The great majority of this trade across the border has been things which have become quite pricey since gaza was taken over by hamas, such as matresses, cement, chinese built motorcycles etc.

Isreals reactions are far too harsh often, but these reactions are a product of the environment of which the nation developed. People often make parralels to irelands formation, but the major difference is that ireland wasn't attacked by all of europe afterwards and on several different occasions.

Isrealis are going to continuosly elect heavy handed reactionary protectionist governments as long as the political climate in the middle east remains the same. The aggresive element amidst the arabs have no chance whatsoever of erasing isreal from the map, it is a fools erand. The most hamas can ever hope for with it's current aggresions and infighting is to make life as miserable as possible for the palastinian and isereali people alike.

Kev_ps3 · 24-01-2008 2:35pm

Lemming wrote: »

. In short, the disproportionate power wielded by the Jewish/Israeli lobby in the US is also it's biggest weakness.

They do have an awful lot of power dont they. Esp when you compare it to the Irish lobby in the US! Some would say 'fair play', they got the power, whats wrong with that? But then you realise that they only represent a tiny percentage of the US's population and this can only be a bad thing. I think their influence of media in general is a very powerful tool that they have, no other group has anything close.

Kev_ps3 · 24-01-2008 2:39pm

Kaiser_Sma wrote: »

This is equally as frightening as the 'all palastinans promote terroism' comments.
FYI the palastinian fore fathers are just blow in's historically speaking, jewish isrealis were there first and have been there continuously since.

Couldnt you say the same about the prodestants in the north? If Ireland ever invaded the north then they could use your theory and it would be ok with you?

Lemming · 24-01-2008 2:41pm

Kaiser_Sma wrote: »

This is equally as frightening as the 'all palastinans promote terroism' comments.
FYI the palastinian fore fathers are just blow in's historically speaking, jewish isrealis were there first and have been there continuously since.

The great majority of this trade across the border has been things which have become quite pricey since gaza was taken over by hamas, such as matresses, cement, chinese built motorcycles etc.

Isreals reactions are far too harsh often, but these reactions are a product of the environment of which the nation developed. People often make parralels to irelands formation, but the major difference is that ireland wasn't attacked by all of europe afterwards and on several different occasions.

Isrealis are going to continuosly elect heavy handed reactionary protectionist governments as long as the political climate in the middle east remains the same. The aggresive element amidst the arabs have no chance whatsoever of erasing isreal from the map, it is a fools erand. The most hamas can ever hope for with it's current aggresions and infighting is to make life as miserable as possible for the palastinian and isereali people alike.

Errrr ... you might want to go back in your history to the end of the 19th century to see exactly where Israel's development stems from and why they have the relationship they do now with the natives. The history surrounding the creation of Israel is not smelling of roses.

purple'n'gold · 24-01-2008 2:50pm

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

They do have an awful lot of power dont they. Esp when you compare it to the Irish lobby in the US! Some would say 'fair play', they got the power, whats wrong with that? But then you realise that they only represent a tiny percentage of the US's population and this can only be a bad thing. I think their influence of media in general is a very powerful tool that they have, no other group has anything close.

They only have this power because the US chooses to let them have it. It suits the US to keep the pot boiling in the Middle East. That’s where all the oil is and their absolute support for Israel (regardless of what atrocities Israel commits) gives them an excuse to have a presence and a lot of influence there. [In the grand scheme of things your average American was traditionally no lover of the Jews, I remember the late Groucho Marx saying that they wouldn’t allow his daughter into a country club because she was half Jewish.]

jonny72 · 24-01-2008 3:05pm

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

You're forgetting the living in terror part. I know I wouldn't like to even visit that part of Israel knowing that rockets could land at any time. How do you think the residents there feel?

Where would you rather visit, that part of Israel or any part of Palestine? thanks, case closed.

Anyway Israel has consistently said the border crossings would reopen as soon as the rockets stop. But like some spoilt child insisting it has its way hamas keeps launching rockets at Israel day after day. I just have to say WOW! I wish we had politicians who cared for their people like hamas do :rolleyes:

Of course you will say this, you support Israel unconditionally. Someone has to be that fanatical to see this issue in such a twisted way. To murder, maim, imprison, punish and oppress a whole group of people and still think you are the good guys is exactly the same mentality that another group of people had.. in the past.. ring any bells?

Kev_ps3 · 24-01-2008 3:13pm

purplengold wrote: »

They only have this power because the US chooses to let them have it. It suits the US to keep the pot boiling in the Middle East. That’s where all the oil is and their absolute support for Israel (regardless of what atrocities Israel commits) gives them an excuse to have a presence and a lot of influence there. [In the grand scheme of things your average American was traditionally no lover of the Jews, I remember the late Groucho Marx saying that they wouldn’t allow his daughter into a country club because she was half Jewish.]

Thats what I cannot understand.
Years ago the Jews were lumped in with the communists as part of the 'foreign influence' type, among others.
Today everyone loves them like they were their brother. I think it shows the power of the media in todays society.

Sesshoumaru · 24-01-2008 3:21pm

Playboy wrote: »

And tell me .. why shouldnt they drive them back into the sea? Israel drove them off their land .. why should the Palestinians not have every right to reclaim that land and drive what is essentially an occupying apartheid regime bent on genocide into the sea. Why are the Palestinians called terrorists? Israel is a terrorist state and you are blind if you cant see that. Israel also gets billions of dollars in aid every year from the US .. tell me why they deserve international aid while they live in a first world country while the Palestinians who live in abject poverty deserve none. Get you head screwed on m8 .. dont buy all that propogandist bull that comes out of Israel and the US.

I love how no one comments on this guys post. No negative or positive reaction at all people? I'll take it that since most people are silent..... they silently agree with this person statement?

meditraitor · 24-01-2008 3:25pm

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

I love how no one comments on this guys post. No negative or positive reaction at all people? I'll take it that since most people are silent..... they silently agree with this person statement?

Correct and right !;) (well apart from the drive them into the sea bit)

Lemming · 24-01-2008 3:29pm

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

I love how no one comments on this guys post. No negative or positive reaction at all people? I'll take it that since most people are silent..... they silently agree with this person statement?

What? Let me guess ... "You're either with us or you're against us" :rolleyes:

And incidentally, I hadn't replied to the original post since I was busy replying to another post and juggling work at the same time. So no I do not agree with everything said, and certainly appreciate the irony in the propoganda comment, but much of what was said was reasonably accurate in its assessment

Playboy · 24-01-2008 3:30pm

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

I love how no one comments on this guys post. No negative or positive reaction at all people? I'll take it that since most people are silent..... they silently agree with this person statement?

What I love from you is appeal to other people to challenge that statement. Why dont you have a go?

Kev_ps3 · 24-01-2008 3:34pm

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

I love how no one comments on this guys post. No negative or positive reaction at all people? I'll take it that since most people are silent..... they silently agree with this person statement?

Well the Isreali's did drive the Palestinians 'into the sea' so to speak. So I dont see why they couldnt do the same thing back. It seems reasonable enough to me;)

Sesshoumaru · 24-01-2008 3:43pm

Hobbes wrote: »

You need to read up more on what Hamas actually is. It is not just a terrorist organisation. They have various wings. For example that Hamas built most of the Hospitals and schools in Gaza. It spends $70 million a year on social based programs. For example, schools, orphanages, mosques, clinics, soup kitchens, free medical. In fact something like 90% of all Hamas activities are based in those areas.

You forgot to mention their fantastic tv service with great programs for kids.

http://www.investigativeproject.org/article/509

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1532.htm

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/226/story/18887.html

Sesshoumaru · 24-01-2008 3:50pm

Playboy wrote: »

What I love from you is appeal to other people to challenge that statement. Why dont you have a go?

If you open a thread in conspiracy theories called "the elders of zion" I'll repond to you. Otherwise I don't think talking to you will be very productive.

Lemming · 24-01-2008 3:57pm

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

If you open a thread in conspiracy theories called "the elders of zion" I'll repond to you. Otherwise I don't think talking to you will be very productive.

You claim talking with him would not be productive, and yet you attempt to dismiss his challenge to you to actually discuss his comments, with innuendo and mud-slinging. I believe the words "bankrupt" and "argument" might be reasonably applied to your entire stance.

djpbarry · 24-01-2008 4:01pm

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

But then you realise that they only represent a tiny percentage of the US's population and this can only be a bad thing.

Perhaps more importantly, given the context of this discussion, they represent only a tiny percentage of the global population. But let's be careful here; Jewish does not necessarily mean Zionist and vice-versa.

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

I love how no one comments on this guys post. No negative or positive reaction at all people? I'll take it that since most people are silent..... they silently agree with this person statement?

Why don't you comment on it? Or are you appealing for help because you can't find any holes in it?

I don't agree with this:
"And tell me .. why shouldnt they drive them back into the sea?
why should the Palestinians not have every right to reclaim that land and drive what is essentially an occupying apartheid regime bent on genocide into the sea"
But everything else is more-or-less true.

Sesshoumaru · 24-01-2008 4:05pm

Lemming wrote: »

You claim talking with him would not be productive, and yet you attempt to dismiss his challenge to you to actually discuss his comments, with innuendo and mud-slinging. I believe the words "bankrupt" and "argument" might be reasonably applied to your entire stance.

If someone came on here and said we should drive the Unionists into the Irish sea would that be tolerated? Why should I entertain this nonsense? These people usually bleat on about Israel respecting UN decisions, welll hello Israel is a member of the UN and its formation was approved by the UN! If we start discussing whether the Jews should be driven in to the sea, we might as well discuss leaving the UN and getting rid of it altogether.

Playboy · 24-01-2008 4:13pm

djpbarry wrote: »

I don't agree with this:
"And tell me .. why shouldnt they drive them back into the sea?
why should the Palestinians not have every right to reclaim that land and drive what is essentially an occupying apartheid regime bent on genocide into the sea"
But everything else is more-or-less true.

Im not advocating action here. I don't think any more innocent people should die and I think a two state solution is the only possible solution to this crisis with Israel pulling back behind it's originally agreed borders.

The statement above I believe is a close reflection as to how a Palestinian would feel about the Israelis (the ones I have met anyway) and I can see their point. They were essentially driven from their land and had their country partioned against their will. They suffer discrimination in Israel and torture and poverty outside of Israel in the Gaza strip. They are an apartheid regime .. no question about it.

Lemming · 24-01-2008 4:15pm

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

If someone came on here and said we should drive the Unionists into the Irish sea would that be tolerated? Why should I entertain this nonsense? These people usually bleat on about Israel respecting UN decisions, welll hello Israel is a member of the UN and its formation was approved by the UN! If we start discussing whether the Jews should be driven in to the sea, we might as well discuss leaving the UN and getting rid of it altogether.

Now you're just trying to create an inflexible "with us or against us" argument so that you will not have to talk with someone whose opinion you do not agree with.

And considering that you came out with this equally absurd and disgustingly sweeping statement:

I don't hate the Palestinians. I just think a large proportion of them are terrorists and the rest of the population support those terrorists. As seen in the election where they voted in hamas. What kind of reaction did they expect electing hamas whose stated aim is to drive the Jews back into the sea? They don't deserve all the sympathy that the mainstream media whips up for them, nor all the international aid they get. I wonder what's the point in giving them a state then? We'll just be creating another terrorist sponsoring state overnight.

I hardly think you are in a position to comment on Playboy's equally absurd "drive them into the sea" remark

bobbyjoe · 24-01-2008 4:15pm

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

If someone came on here and said we should drive the Unionists into the Irish sea would that be tolerated? Why should I entertain this nonsense? These people usually bleat on about Israel respecting UN decisions, welll hello Israel is a member of the UN and its formation was approved by the UN! If we start discussing whether the Jews should be driven in to the sea, we might as well discuss leaving the UN and getting rid of it altogether.

Plenty of people would have liked to drive the unionists into the sea. But they didn't have the means, ability or support to do it.
What would have happened if West Belfast was sealed up, power turned off, food and water blocked etc
Do you think that would have made the situation better or worse?

Sesshoumaru · 24-01-2008 4:22pm

Playboy wrote: »

Im not advocating action here. I don't think any more innocent people should die and I think a two state solution is the only possible solution to this crisis with Israel pulling back behind it's originally agreed borders.

The statement above I believe is a close reflection as to how a Palestinian would feel about the Israelis (the ones I have met anyway) and I can see their point. They were essentially driven from their land and had their country partioned against their will. They suffer discrimination in Israel and torture and poverty outside of Israel in the Gaza strip. They are an apartheid regime .. no question about it.

Worlds powers have throughout the ages always been moving people around and redrawing national boundaries. Look what happened over the centuries in Northern Ireland! Where did all these Unionists come from? Where did the land they settled on come from? But I don't see any reasonable people suggesting we drive them into the sea now.

Israel exists now and isn't going away. The Jews did a fine job building up their infrastructure and economy. You just have to look at their first class universities and scientists to see how well they've done over the decades.

I would agree with you though that a two state solution is the best chance at peace. With Israel dismantling its settlements in the west bank and moving back to its original borders. This should be part of a grander peace deal with all the Arab states in the region agreeing to recognise Israel and normalising relations.

7km of Israels wall blown up

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