7km of Israels wall blown up

Playboy

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

If someone came on here and said we should drive the Unionists into the Irish sea would that be tolerated? Why should I entertain this nonsense? These people usually bleat on about Israel respecting UN decisions, welll hello Israel is a member of the UN and its formation was approved by the UN! If we start discussing whether the Jews should be driven in to the sea, we might as well discuss leaving the UN and getting rid of it altogether.

Oh please. Herzl started on his Zionist mission in the late 1800's. Israel has only been formed since 47 .. a little bit different to the Uniionists who have been there for more than half a millenium. On the vote for the formation of Israel .. Jewish pressure groups threw money and lobbied to get what they wanted and they exploited world sympathy over the holocaust to push through an independent state. Even so the Israel the UN envisaged was very different to the Israel we now have, with different borders and there was supposed to be a right of return for the Palestinians.

33 countries voted yes to the partition plan .. 13 voted no and 10 abstained. Of all the countries that voted yes, none of them were in the region whilst every country in the region voted no. The Uk who got the ball rolling on this whole thing with the Balfour agreement abstained from the vote. The British eventually had to withdraw from the Israel because of sustained 'terrorism from the Israeli's against them from what was knows as the Haganah (later to become the IDF).

djpbarry

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

But I don't see any reasonable people suggesting we drive them into the sea now.

I don't see any reasonable people suggesting we drive Israelis into the see either.

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

The Jews did a fine job building up their infrastructure and economy. You just have to look at their first class universities and scientists to see how well they've done over the decades.

Could they have achieved this without the billions of US dollars they received in "aid"? I very much doubt it.

Sesshoumaru

Lemming wrote: »

Now you're just trying to create an inflexible "with us or against us" argument so that you will not have to talk with someone whose opinion you do not agree with.

And considering that you came out with this equally absurd and disgustingly sweeping statement:



I hardly think you are in a position to comment on Playboy's equally absurd "drive them into the sea" remark

Well if you find my statement disgusting, fair enough. What I've seen in this thread so far equally sickens and disgusts me. Their seems to be a lot of barely concealed hatred of the Jews here. As per my last post in the end I would be happy if the Palestinians had their own state to live happily and peacefully in. It's what I hope will be the ultimate outcome. I know their situation is difficult at the moment. But honestly I think their troubles are mostly of their own making. Most Arabs just can't get it out of their head that they should be able to militarily solve this problem by defeating Israel and driving the Jews into the sea.

Sesshoumaru

Playboy wrote: »

Oh please. Herzl started on his Zionist mission in the late 1800's. Israel has only been formed since 47 .. a little bit different to the Uniionists who have been there for more than half a millenium. On the vote for the formation of Israel .. Jewish pressure groups threw money and lobbied to get what they wanted and they exploited world sympathy over the holocaust to push through an independent state. Even so the Israel the UN envisaged was very different to the Israel we now have, with different borders and there was supposed to be a right of return for the Palestinians.

33 countries voted yes to the partition plan .. 13 voted no and 10 abstained. Of all the countries that voted yes, none of them were in the region whilst every country in the region voted no. The Uk who got the ball rolling on this whole thing with the Balfour agreement abstained from the vote. The British eventually had to withdraw from the Israel because of sustained 'terrorism from the Israeli's against them from what was knows as the Haganah (later to become the IDF).

Well by that logic the Jews just need to holdout for another few centuries and then their state will be legitimate in your eyes?

meditraitor

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Well by that logic the Jews just need to holdout for another few centuries and then their state will be legitimate in your eyes?

The state is legitimate in most peoples eyes.

Its the actions of the state that are not legitimate!

To agree with the actions of the state of Isreal is in my eyes a character flaw or maybe I am the one flawed for not seeing the sense in the Ethnic Cleansing of the indiginious peoples of palestine.

Mark

Lemming

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Well if you find my statement disgusting, fair enough. What I've seen in this thread so far equally sickens and disgusts me. Their seems to be a lot of barely concealed hatred of the Jews here.

Actually most of what I've seen, whilst not speaking for anybody else but myself, does not come across as "Jew Hating" but rather disgust at what the state of Israel is doing, and has done.

The mention of the jewish religion by myself was in regards the manner in which the state of Israel is given blank cheques to do as it pleases by political influence within the US. This influence is cold hard fact. That it belongs to Jewish-Israeli lobbying groups is truth, not any attempt to sling mud at the Jewish religion.

But that doesn't suit your argument or outlook does it? You are so very quick to paint anybody who does not agree with Israeli policy as anti-jewish, or full of hatred. The irony being that you posted some very spiteful and hate-filled remarks on this very thread. You might want to look in a mirror to see where the demons lie. Not all of them are on the other side of the proverbial fence.

As per my last post in the end I would be happy if the Palestinians had their own state to live happily and peacefully in. It's what I hope will be the ultimate outcome. I know their situation is difficult at the moment. But honestly I think their troubles are mostly of their own making.

You talk about "difficulties" as if it's a trivial matter. Your choice of language is quite an insight into the workings of your inner mind. And I find it disturbing in the extreme that you are so willing to trivialise the suffering of an entire people whilst ignoring the history and the main contributor to that suffering and indeed defending it and making excuses for its actions.

In short "oh well, it's alright since it isn't happening to 'my side' so I'm happy. Continue making them suffer if you please good sirs."

Most Arabs just can't get it out of their head that they should be able to militarily solve this problem by defeating Israel and driving the Jews into the sea.

Funnily enough, I would point that direct comment back at Israel, and make a particular point of the attitudes being espoused in the media by Israelis during the invasion of southern lebanon in 2007.

djpbarry

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Their seems to be a lot of barely concealed hatred of the Jews here.

I saw one comment advocating that the Israelis be driven into the sea. The poster later explained that this was what he/she imagined to be the Palestinian viewpoint from his/her perspective.

So where exactly is this "hatred" so evident?

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

But honestly I think their troubles are mostly of their own making.

How exactly?

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Most Arabs just can't get it out of their head that they should be able to militarily solve this problem by defeating Israel and driving the Jews into the sea.

Now there's a grand, sweeping generalisation if ever I saw one :rolleyes:

Define "most Arabs".

Sesshoumaru

I don't have time to defend myself from everyone who questions me on this thread. I'm only one person!

I see plenty of references to Jews controlling the media and American foreign policy. One reference to driving the jews into the sea and one poster asking why they shouldn't be driven into the sea. Its not any one particular comment, they just combine together to paint a tapestry of Jews controlling the world and being sneaky.

Lemming wrote:

But that doesn't suit your argument or outlook does it? You are so very quick to paint anybody who does not agree with Israeli policy as anti-jewish, or full of hatred. The irony being that you posted some very spiteful and hate-filled remarks on this very thread. You might want to look in a mirror to see where the demons lie. Not all of them are on the other side of the proverbial fence.

I'm just telling it how I see it. No different to you. I already stated I don't hate the Palestinians and I mean that. They've been badly let down by their corrupt politicians(fatah) and their terrorist politicians(hamas). Although tbh fatah and hamas are both terrorist organisations IMO.

Lemming wrote:

You talk about "difficulties" as if it's a trivial matter. Your choice of language is quite an insight into the workings of your inner mind. And I find it disturbing in the extreme that you are so willing to trivialise the suffering of an entire people whilst ignoring the history and the main contributor to that suffering and indeed defending it and making excuses for its actions.

In short "oh well, it's alright since it isn't happening to 'my side' so I'm happy. Continue making them suffer if you please good sirs."

I don't want to see any other human being suffer, no matter their race or faith(or lack of). I apologise if it seemed I was trivialising their suffering. Let me clarify. I know they are suffering a great deal! I also know a lot of them are dying. As a father myself I feel mostly for the young children that are caught up in this(please view my earlier links to hamas TV shows for kids). I want their suffering to end just as much as anyone else. I just disagree with you and apparently most people here with where the blame for the current impasse lays.

Lemming wrote:

Funnily enough, I would point that direct comment back at Israel, and make a particular point of the attitudes being espoused in the media by Israelis during the invasion of southern lebanon in 2007.

At the very least two wrongs don't make a right. So do you agree or disagree that most Arabs or at least their governments still dream of militarily defeating Israel and driving them into the sea?

Sesshoumaru

djpbarry wrote: »

Now there's a grand, sweeping generalisation if ever I saw one :rolleyes:.

Just take a few minutes to watch hamas child star Saraa Barhoum sing will you?

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1637.htm

Now tell me that hamas at least doesn't dream of solving this conflict militarily. Plus the whole point of that video is make the populace believe that armed conflict will accomplish more than negotiating with Israel. We all know based on our own experiences in NI that this will not work. It's just a recipe for the prolonged suffering of Palestinians and the Israelis.

djpbarry

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Just take a few minutes to watch hamas child star Saraa Barhoum sing will you?

The theme is quite familiar.

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Now tell me that hamas at least doesn't dream of solving this conflict militarily.

Who said otherwise? Their charter calls for the destruction of Israel.

But, may I remind you that you said:
"Most Arabs just can't get it out of their head that they should be able to militarily solve this problem by defeating Israel and driving the Jews into the sea"
A ridiculously broad generalisation.

Mr. Incognito

You have some very very paranoid idea's man.

Okay looking at it objectively,

The Brits come in the the 40's and say "here you go, have a country"

The displaced Jewish from Europe set up an occupied territory, have it ratified at the UN, win a few wars and with foreign funding establish a homeland.

The displaced people, they marginalise, oppress and treat with distain.

Two generations later, there is an established Israel and those same people are still oppressed.

Now you can wax and wain lyrical and scream about anto-Zionist conspiracies but those people are indigenous to those lands. European Jews who's RELIGION is indigenous to those lands law claim on the basis of religions orientation. The Palestinians lay claim by way of Blood. Israel will never see peace as long as it refuse's to accept these facts and make arrangements based on that. The Palestinian's will never see peace until they accept Israel is here to stay and they had better move over in the bed.

Sesshoumaru

djpbarry wrote: »

The theme is quite familiar.

What is with this moral equivalence rubbish? Do we parade young children on tv singing these songs? Did you even watch the other sick videos of hamas childrens tv?

djpbarry wrote:

Who said otherwise? Their charter calls for the destruction of Israel.

But, may I remind you that you said:
"Most Arabs just can't get it out of their head that they should be able to militarily solve this problem by defeating Israel and driving the Jews into the sea"
A ridiculously broad generalisation.

Ok I'm really confused as to what your whole point in this thread is. At the start you seemed to be saying that Israel should negotiate with hamas because hamas had some fairy tale "ceasefire". Now you admit hamas want to destroy Israel. How can Israel negotiate their destruction? Where is the logic? Surely any sane person would ask that the other side drop their requirement that you die before beginning negotiations?

As for my own comment. Israel just happened to be attacked by all its neighbors on more than one occasion. I don't think in the short amount of time that has elapsed since those wars that any meaningful change has occurred in those countries. I see very few progressive democracies around Israel.

Sesshoumaru

SetantaL wrote: »

You have some very very paranoid idea's man.

Okay looking at it objectively,

The Brits come in the the 40's and say "here you go, have a country"

The displaced Jewish from Europe set up an occupied territory, have it ratified at the UN, win a few wars and with foreign funding establish a homeland.

The displaced people, they marginalise, oppress and treat with distain.

Two generations later, there is an established Israel and those same people are still oppressed.

Now you can wax and wain lyrical and scream about anto-Zionist conspiracies but those people are indigenous to those lands. European Jews who's RELIGION is indigenous to those lands law claim on the basis of religions orientation. The Palestinians lay claim by way of Blood. Israel will never see peace as long as it refuse's to accept these facts and make arrangements based on that. The Palestinian's will never see peace until they accept Israel is here to stay and they had better move over in the bed.

Well I do broadly agree with the last part. I think acceptance on both sides is the key. However you have to admit when Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza, the response from hamas was disappointing to say the least. Just watch young Saraa sing about how hamas "liberated" Gaza. These thugs think they liberated Gaza from the IDF with a few AK47's and suicide bombers.

Playboy

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

. I see very few progressive democracies around Israel.

Are you suggesting Israel is a progressive democracy?

wes

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Well I do broadly agree with the last part. I think acceptance on both sides is the key. However you have to admit when Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza, the response from hamas was disappointing to say the least. Just watch young Saraa sing about how hamas "liberated" Gaza. These thugs think they liberated Gaza from the IDF with a few AK47's and suicide bombers.

Then built more colonies in the West Bank. Why did you leave that bit out?

**EDIT**
Here are links to some maps showing the increase in colonies in the West Bank:

http://www.ochaopt.org/?module=displaysection&section_id=125&static=0&format=html

Sesshoumaru

Playboy wrote: »

Are you suggesting Israel is a progressive democracy?

Well apparently there is a fairly active homosexual community in Israel. Not something you normally associate with an Arab dictatorship or theocracy? While Israel has its faults, its still a liberal democracy with free speech and due process. More than most countries around it have.

Sesshoumaru

wes wrote: »

Then built more colonies in the West Bank. Why did you leave that bit out?

**EDIT**
Here are links to some maps showing the increase in colonies in the West Bank:

http://www.ochaopt.org/?module=displaysection&section_id=125&static=0&format=html

and? They pulled out of Gaza as some sneaky way to consolidate their control over the west bank? or maybe they'd prefer to wait and see if pulling out of Gaza was a success or not? So far from the daily rocket attacks I think it was the right thing to do, but only insofar as it shows the Palestinians as not being ready for statehood.

bobbyjoe

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

and? They pulled out of Gaza as some sneaky way to consolidate their control over the west bank? or maybe they'd prefer to wait and see if pulling out of Gaza was a success or not? So far from the daily rocket attacks I think it was the right thing to do, but only insofar as it shows the Palestinians as not being ready for statehood.

A state that uses violence is not ready?
Every single state in the world was created with violence.
Israel for example.

These rockets are the equivilent of stabbing an elephant with a toothpick.

Manic Moran

These rockets are the equivilent of stabbing an elephant with a toothpick

And eventually the elephant is going to get pissed off and crush you.

Or, in San Francisco terms, eventually the tiger is going to get pissed off and claw you. Whose fault is it?

NTM

bobbyjoe

Manic Moran wrote: »

And eventually the elephant is going to get pissed off and crush you.

Or, in San Francisco terms, eventually the tiger is going to get pissed off and claw you. Whose fault is it?

NTM

If the elephent crushed the guy with the toothpick I'd have no problem.
But he tends to go on a rampage stamping everything in site and everyone who gets in the way.

Sponge Bob

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Well I do broadly agree with the last part. I think acceptance on both sides is the key. However you have to admit when Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza, the response from hamas was disappointing to say the least.

They remained on the beaches and on the egyptian border .

They never fixed the airport




The Israelis haven't gone away you know !!!

Just watch young Saraa sing about how hamas "liberated" Gaza. These thugs think they liberated Gaza from the IDF with a few AK47's and suicide bombers.

They did pretty much that ...not that its much good to them.

wes

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

and? They pulled out of Gaza as some sneaky way to consolidate their control over the west bank? or maybe they'd prefer to wait and see if pulling out of Gaza was a success or not? So far from the daily rocket attacks I think it was the right thing to do, but only insofar as it shows the Palestinians as not being ready for statehood.

It shows Israel is not interested in peace. They immediately stole more land in the West Bank. It was a simple cover for a far larger land grab in the West Bank.

It amazing how you choose to brush this aside as if Israel is doing nothing wrong. The entire conflict is about land, and Israel stealing more of it, is clearly one of the main reasons for the violence. Israel regularly engages in state terrorism, the current blockade is a perfect example of this, there willing to punish an entire civilian populace in the world largest prison.

Manic Moran

bobbyjoe wrote: »

If the elephent crushed the guy with the toothpick I'd have no problem.
But he tends to go on a rampage stamping everything in site and everyone who gets in the way.

Which is why, if you're passing by, it would behoove you to get the guy to stop prodding the elephant.

NTM

cabinteelytom

Egypt, Israel, the EU, US and UN joined in knocking ten bells economically speaking ( initially with the aid boycott ) out of 1.5 million vulnerable people in Gaza; not because Hamas fired rockets ( I think they were on ceasefire at the time) but because the people voted for a party, Hamas, that was deemed (accurately) to have an unconstructive policy; which could be expressed as 'rid our land of Israel; put it somewhere else'.
These have been very harsh sanctions. Are they even-handed?
Over the past 40 years the state of Israel has pursued many unconstructive policies. Let's name one; the annexation ( not invasion, not occupation) the annexation of part of Syria. The Golan today is as integral a part of Israel as Ramle or Haifa.
Not a country in the world, not even the United States, recognises this annexation.
But no sanctions have been taken against Israel for this annexation.
Let's have sanctions applied in a way that gives both parties an economic incentive to trim their ambitions and make peace.

Sesshoumaru

wes wrote: »

It shows Israel is not interested in peace. They immediately stole more land in the West Bank. It was a simple cover for a far larger land grab in the West Bank.

It amazing how you choose to brush this aside as if Israel is doing nothing wrong. The entire conflict is about land, and Israel stealing more of it, is clearly one of the main reasons for the violence. Israel regularly engages in state terrorism, the current blockade is a perfect example of this, there willing to punish an entire civilian populace in the world largest prison.

I find it interesting how people and the media portray the Palestinians as innocent lambs before the evil Jewish genocide machine. But maybe its just me that thinks people need to show they are responsible and ready before giving them a state?

Hobbes

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

You forgot to mention their fantastic tv service with great programs for kids.

I said I didn't agree with the proproganda. What is the point you are trying to make? That Hamas are bad? Of course terrorists are bad.

But you appear to be incapable of understanding why they get a following in Gaza as they do.

Just pointing out futher what bits are wrong with Hamas isn't going to change the minds of those in Gaza when Hamas are feeding them, keeping them alive and educating them while those who claim not to be terrorists are starving and killing them without any thought.

Hobbes

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Where did all these Unionists come from? Where did the land they settled on come from? But I don't see any reasonable people suggesting we drive them into the sea now.

How old are you? You sound like you got the luxury of not having to live through all the crap that went on in the 60's to early 80's.

The Jews did a fine job building up their infrastructure and economy.

You see the comment you made there. Read it carefully. That is what is wrong about everything that is currently going on. Do you see what you did wrong?

"The Jews". What you should of said is "The Israelis". Jewish is a religion, not a nationality. However there is people in Israel who don't see the distinction either. they want to make it Secular.

Have a read up on your Israel history and see what happened when the muslim population of Israel actually had a voice in the government.

Also prior to the formation of Israel both Jewish people and Muslims lived in peace.

Lemming

Hobbes wrote: »

Also prior to the formation of Israel both Jewish people and Muslims lived in peace.

Well, a good deal prior to the formation of Israel at any rate. If I recall correctly, the initial settlers back at the late-end of the 19th century did co-exist along side the native Palestinians and had a symbiotic economic relationship with them.

The second major influx of settlers (circa 1910 ?? not sure of my dates) carried with it a far more extremist attitude which actively encouraged discriminating against the Palestinians; not trading with them, not hiring them for work, etc. Essentially text-book apartheid.

And it all spiralled downhill from there as the more extremist section of the settler populace gained more power and/or prominence.

wes

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

I find it interesting how people and the media portray the Palestinians as innocent lambs before the evil Jewish genocide machine. But maybe its just me that thinks people need to show they are responsible and ready before giving them a state?

I never used the word "genocide", nice straw argument you have come up with. (I know you said "people and media", but it was a direct reply to my post.)

The conflict is a land war. Stealing more land leads to more violence. Simple as that. Israel steals more land, hence causing more violence. You must realize land theft is hardly a peaceful endevour on Israel part and is violence in and of itself. Perhaps, Israel should start to realize violence leads to more violence, this is also something the Palestinians should realize.

Also, I never claimed the Palestinians were innocent at any time, so another nice straw man. My point is simple, Israel engages in violence themselves. We see this all the time. They are hardly all that responsible themselves, with the continued land theft and violence on there part. Israel violence does not justify Palestinians violence and vice versa.

Israel, however is an apartheid state. Ignoring this, is to ignore another huge reason for violence.

Btw, it would be nice if you actually reply to what I say, instead of coming up with a bloated, hyperbolic, straw man argument, that would put Fox news to shame.

Sesshoumaru

wes wrote: »

Btw, it would be nice if you actually reply to what I say, instead of coming up with a bloated, hyperbolic, straw man argument, that would put Fox news to shame.

Are you implying Fox News is anything other than fair and balanced??? I'll be on to my friend Rupert about this baseless slander!