7km of Israels wall blown up

wes

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Are you implying Fox News is anything other than fair and balanced??? I'll be on to my friend Rupert about this baseless slander!

No, they just use a lot of hyperbole .

Playboy

When is violence justified? Is it ever justified? I think in the Palestinians case violence is justifed to a certain extent. If they focus on military or politcal targets then I cannot see why it wouldnt be justfied. Of course its abhorrent for anyone to ever target innocent civialians but is there much difference between Palestinians blowing up a bus and the colateral damage inflicted on innocent civilains by the US and Israel. I think not .. I think if anybody was put in the position the Palestinians are then a large amount of people if not the majority would definitely resort to violence. Its after the fact that people become Hereos .. Were the French Resistance terrorists or freedom fighters? The men who fought and died in 1916 would have been branded terrorists by the English but they are Hereos to us now. I think they is a level of hypocrisy in any discussion that brands the Palestinians terrorists ... we seem to bandy this term terrorist around an awful lot since 911 and it is no more than a propoganda tool used by countries like the US, UK and Israel to justify military action for politcal purposes.

Sesshoumaru

Hobbes wrote: »

I said I didn't agree with the proproganda. What is the point you are trying to make? That Hamas are bad? Of course terrorists are bad.

But you appear to be incapable of understanding why they get a following in Gaza as they do.

Just pointing out futher what bits are wrong with Hamas isn't going to change the minds of those in Gaza when Hamas are feeding them, keeping them alive and educating them while those who claim not to be terrorists are starving and killing them without any thought.

I think broadly speaking I'm sick of seeing Israel bashing threads here. You go in and everyone is all smiles and clapping each other on the back as they relentlessly attack Israel. It would be fine if there were also threads attacking the corruption within the PLO, and hamas/fatah terrorist activities. But if they exist, I've never seen them.

I understand what you are saying about hamas providing services. I understood it before you mentioned it to me. I understand that if people are poor enough and desperate enough they'll vote in whoever is giving them basic services and jobs. I also understand the PLO/fatah is as corrupt as they come. Similar conditions existed in pre WW2 Germany I'm sure which allowed the Nazis to gain the support of the people. I understand all that. I just don't understand why these terrorists have so many cheer leaders in the West? So many people who point out every single fault of Israel(many of which I agree with) but who totally ignore any faults on the Palestinian side.

Sesshoumaru

Hobbes wrote: »

How old are you? You sound like you got the luxury of not having to live through all the crap that went on in the 60's to early 80's.

Spot on Hobbes

Hobbes wrote:

You see the comment you made there. Read it carefully. That is what is wrong about everything that is currently going on. Do you see what you did wrong?

"The Jews". What you should of said is "The Israelis". Jewish is a religion, not a nationality. However there is people in Israel who don't see the distinction either. they want to make it Secular.

I also believe in separation of church/mosque/synagogue and state. But I generally give the Israeli's the benefit of the doubt for now. When Israel reaches a lasting peace deal with all Arab nations in the region I'll be more vocal in my opposition to it's classification as a Jewish state. In the same way that I will be critical of countries that refer to themselves as Islamic states.

djpbarry

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

What is with this moral equivalence rubbish? Do we parade young children on tv singing these songs?

The point I'm trying to make (and others on this thread have tried to make) is that it is very difficult for us (as Irish citizens) to take the moral high ground, given our own, shall we say, chequered past.

I do not agree with the indoctrination of children - it is wrong. But, this is not something that is unique to Palestine.

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

At the start you seemed to be saying that Israel should negotiate with hamas because hamas had some fairy tale "ceasefire". Now you admit hamas want to destroy Israel.

I'm sure there are plenty of elements within Israel who would be happy to see the destruction of Palestine. The point is that no difference of opinion (I know that's putting it lightly) is insurmountable. Yes, there are elements in Palestine who wish for Israel's demise, but I'm sure the majority of them realise that this is not realistic. If you give Palestinians a decent standard of living, their attitude towards Israel will soften.

In 2006, during Hamas' ceasefire, Mahmoud al-Zahar proposed a truce (for 10 years, I think, after which time they would review the situation) on condition that Israel retreated to its pre-1967 borders (as recognised by the UN). Israel refused.

Granted, this solution was not perfect, but no solution is. It would have been a step in the right direction.

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Israel just happened to be attacked by all its neighbors on more than one occasion.

That sentence could be rewritten as "Israel's neighbours just happened to be attacked by Israel on more than one occasion". Remember Lebanon?

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

I see very few progressive democracies around Israel.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but were Hamas not democratically elected by the people of Palestine?

Manic Moran wrote: »

Which is why, if you're passing by, it would behoove you to get the guy to stop prodding the elephant.

And if you do not, you, and all those around you (including any children who happen to be present), deserve to die?

Playboy wrote: »

When is violence justified? Is it ever justified?

Nope.

Playboy

djpbarry wrote: »

Nope.

So .. if you were attacked or you saw someone raping a woman then violence would not be justified? Most legal systems would disagree with you.

bobbyjoe

Manic Moran wrote: »

Which is why, if you're passing by, it would behoove you to get the guy to stop prodding the elephant.

NTM

Nice in theory but it has not worked in forty years. BTW the elephant also happens to be trampling over people house and blocking supplies from coming in. Its like saying the British should have cut off power and supplies to West Belfast until the IRA stopped its campaign. I'd imagine that would have made the situation a whole lot worse.

The treatment if the Palestinians would not be acceptable in any other country collective punishment is a war crime.

djpbarry

Playboy wrote: »

if you were attacked or you saw someone raping a woman then violence would not be justified?

There are forms of non-violent self-defence, such as Aikido for example.

In the extreme case of witnessing a rape, I would inform the Gardaí ASAP and, I suppose, I would probably consider confronting the offender. But, in the event that there were more than one (assuming I'm on my own), I'm not sure what I'd do - probably just hope the Gardaí don't take too long.

purple'n'gold

Nope.[/QUOTE]

Of course violence is justified under certain circumstances. You are entitled to use violence to defend your self from attack.And if you are suddenly attacked by some lunatic you don’t say “hold on, let me do a course in non violent self defence, then come back and attack me”.

bobbyjoe

Check out this map.
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/img/photos/olmertmaps/olmert_plan_maps.jpg

Sesshoumaru

djpbarry wrote: »

There are forms of non-violent self-defence, such as Aikido for example.

In the extreme case of witnessing a rape, I would inform the Gardaí ASAP and, I suppose, I would probably consider confronting the offender. But, in the event that there were more than one (assuming I'm on my own), I'm not sure what I'd do - probably just hope the Gardaí don't take too long.

In this scenario violence on the attacker is justified. How much violence is justified? Thats hard to tell, you'd have to be in the situation to make that judgment call. Certainly using whatever level of force was required to cause them to retreat would seem reasonable to me. If they insisted on continuing their violence on the innocent victim or you then any level of force up to and including the attackers death would seem reasonable to me. Better some rapist ends up dead than the good Samaritan that intervenes on the victims behalf.

bobbyjoe

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

In this scenario violence on the attacker is justified. How much violence is justified? Thats hard to tell, you'd have to be in the situation to make that judgment call. Certainly using whatever level of force was required to cause them to retreat would seem reasonable to me. If they insisted on continuing their violence on the innocent victim or you then any level of force up to and including the attackers death would seem reasonable to me. Better some rapist ends up dead than the good Samaritan that intervenes on the victims behalf.

But it would be wrong to attack the rapists wife, kids and neighbors. How about cutting off the area he lives in until the locals stop all rapists.

Lemming

Erm, can we get off the whole "what-if-you-were-attacked-by-a-rapist-lets-all-use-akido" thing? You cannot seriously be trying to compare the Israeli-Palestinian debacle to a street assault ...

djpbarry

Lemming wrote: »

Erm, can we get off the whole "what-if-you-were-attacked-by-a-rapist-lets-all-use-akido" thing? You cannot seriously be trying to compare the Israeli-Palestinian debacle to a street assault ...

Agreed. This is going OT. My personal stance on the use of violence is not really relevant to the discussion.

jonny72

They reckon roughly half the population of Palestinians in Gaza have streamed across to Egypt to buy supplies, really shows how penned in they are.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7208252.stm

Hobbes

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

I think broadly speaking I'm sick of seeing Israel bashing threads here.

When they stop committing war crimes then the country might get a bit more respect. I don't like what Hamas do, but at the same time that doesn't magically make Israels actions those of saints.

Similar conditions existed in pre WW2 Germany I'm sure which allowed the Nazis to gain the support of the people.

Have you even opened a history book?

So many people who point out every single fault of Israel(many of which I agree with) but who totally ignore any faults on the Palestinian side.

We don't ignore the faults. But when you have Hamas eventually offering peace a while back and Israel saying they agree but will still kill Hamas people and then proceeded to bomb a populated apartment block to kill one person you have to ask are they really committed to peace?

Hobbes

bobbyjoe wrote: »

Check out this map.
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/img/photos/olmertmaps/olmert_plan_maps.jpg

Wow they really are running the Israeli people into the Sea! How evil!


:rolleyes:

Sesshoumaru

Hobbes wrote: »

Have you even opened a history book?

Instead of making a smart ass comment why don't you make a point? As far as I remember Germany was suffering massive inflation and very high unemployment before the Nazis took over. People were desperate at the time just as some Palestinians are desperate now. What is your problem with this observation?

Sesshoumaru

Hobbes wrote: »

Wow they really are running the Israeli people into the Sea! How evil!


:rolleyes:

They only lack the means, not the will!

Sesshoumaru

Hobbes wrote: »

We don't ignore the faults. But when you have Hamas eventually offering peace a while back and Israel saying they agree but will still kill Hamas people and then proceeded to bomb a populated apartment block to kill one person you have to ask are they really committed to peace?

I don't recall hamas ever publicly renouncing their stated aim of destroying Israel. What fairy tale "peace offer" was this? Please Israel give hamas some breathing space to get some proper weapons so they can kill more Israelis like hezbollah? :rolleyes:

Hobbes wrote:

When they stop committing war crimes then the country might get a bit more respect. I don't like what Hamas do, but at the same time that doesn't magically make Israels actions those of saints.

Fair enough, however I'm just saying from what I've seen most people on boards are much harder on Israel. It's like hamas is some kind of favoured child!

Dazrd

Sesshoumaru Fair enough, however I'm just saying from what I've seen most people on boards are much harder on Israel. It's like hamas is some kind of favoured child!

As a country who was occupied by its neighbour for 700 years we have a certain empathy with the palestinian plight.

Manic Moran

And I also seem to recall that the overall level of support for the Irish Intifada in the Republic was pretty low. At least, I never met anyone who seemed to think that the PIRA were a good thing.

NTM

Dazrd

Manic Moran And I also seem to recall that the overall level of support for the Irish Intifada in the Republic was pretty low. At least, I never met anyone who seemed to think that the PIRA were a good thing.

It helped that we werent collectively punished every time an IRA bomb exploded that biblical eye for an eye attitude so prevalent in the middle east is the problem.

eoin5

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Fair enough, however I'm just saying from what I've seen most people on boards are much harder on Israel. It's like hamas is some kind of favoured child!

From what I've read Hamas was Israels favoured child.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

that's a pre 9/11 mindset eoin..

wes

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

They only lack the means, not the will!

As has been pointed out earlier. Israel had no qualms about ethnically cleansing Palestinians, when they had the opportunity.

djpbarry

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

What fairy tale "peace offer" was this?

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3207845,00.html

Manic Moran wrote: »

And I also seem to recall that the overall level of support for the Irish Intifada in the Republic was pretty low. At least, I never met anyone who seemed to think that the PIRA were a good thing.

You'd have met plenty 90 years ago, or even more recently than that. The IRA would have had a fair bit of support in the Republic during the 60's and 70's.

purple'n'gold

Of course when the unfortunate Palestinians are desperately pouring into Egypt to get essential supplies denied to them by Israel’s blockade of their territory, the USA (who are ultimately responsible for this ) respond by urging Egypt to secure their borders.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1958286/posts

nacho libre

eoin5 wrote: »

From what I've read Hamas was Israels favoured child.

are you referring to Israel funding hamas to undermine the plo?

Sesshoumaru

djpbarry wrote: »

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3207845,00.html

Mahmoud al-Zahar wrote:

A secular system "allows homosexuality, allows corruption, allows the spread of the loss of natural immunity like AIDS," he said. "We are here living under Islamic control.

Yay lets give them a state!! woohoo! and come on! a "long term truce".... is that what you call a serious peace offer? Do you believe that if Israel fulfilled all these demands that in 10 or 15 years time they wouldn't just launch another terrorist campaign against Israel to finish the job? If Israel gives into these fascist thugs then we'll be supporting and allowing the creation of another little theocracy. Probably much like Saudi Arabia which is probably the biggest terrorism exporter in the world.