7km of Israels wall blown up

purple'n'gold

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Yay lets give them a state!! woohoo! and come on! a "long term truce".... is that what you call a serious peace offer? Do you believe that if Israel fulfilled all these demands that in 10 or 15 years time they wouldn't just launch another terrorist campaign against Israel to finish the job? If Israel gives into these fascist thugs then we'll be supporting and allowing the creation of another little theocracy. Probably much like Saudi Arabia which is probably the biggest terrorism exporter in the world.

The USA is a huge backer of Saudi Arabia, and it also allows Israel to conduct murder, torture and genocide against the Palestinian people.

Sesshoumaru

purplengold wrote: »

The USA is a huge backer of Saudi Arabia, and it also allows Israel to conduct murder, torture and genocide against the Palestinian people.

US and European backing of Saudi Arabia is something I strongly oppose. I'd have prefered if the US had used it's military muscle to make regime change in Saudi Arabia instead of Iraq. But thats going even further off topic

purple'n'gold

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

US and European backing of Saudi Arabia is something I strongly oppose. I'd have prefered if the US had used it's military muscle to make regime change in Saudi Arabia instead of Iraq. But thats going even further off topic

I would much prefer it if the USA stopped making a laughing stock of an already joke UN by vetoing every resolution even mildly condemning Israel.

Sesshoumaru

purplengold wrote: »

I would much prefer it if the USA stopped making a laughing stock of an already joke UN by vetoing every resolution even mildly condemning Israel.

Well at least we agree that the UN is a joke, like having Saudi Arabia on the Human Rights Council

purple'n'gold

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Well at least we agree that the UN is a joke, like having Saudi Arabia on the Human Rights Council

For sure!

eoin5

nacho libre wrote: »

are you referring to Israel funding hamas to undermine the plo?

Well the unfounded recognition they gave them moreso, especially when they were a very small organisation.

djpbarry

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

a "long term truce".... is that what you call a serious peace offer?

That's what I call an end to people killing each other and a step towards peace, yes. A truce or armistice is normally what is declared prior to peace negotiations, is it not?

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Do you believe that if Israel fulfilled all these demands that in 10 or 15 years time they wouldn't just launch another terrorist campaign against Israel to finish the job?

The main demand was that Israel retreat to it's UN-defined borders.

Who knows what will happen in the future? As I said earlier, if the Palestinians are afforded a reasonable standard of living, their attitude towards Israel will most likely soften.

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

If Israel gives into these fascist thugs then we'll be supporting and allowing the creation of another little theocracy.

So much irony, so little time...

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Probably much like Saudi Arabia which is probably the biggest terrorism exporter in the world.

Sponsored by the good-ol' USA.

Sesshoumaru

djpbarry wrote: »

That's what I call an end to people killing each other and a step towards peace, yes. A truce or armistice is normally what is declared prior to peace negotiations, is it not?
The main demand was that Israel retreat to it's UN-defined borders.

It's as pointless as a pencil without a point if one side is using that time to build up its forces. Which is what hamas will do.

djpbarry wrote:

Who knows what will happen in the future? As I said earlier, if the Palestinians are afforded a reasonable standard of living, their attitude towards Israel will most likely soften.

A reasonable standard of living in their mini theocratic state. Where after you've given hamas control cause their such nice guys, they will be able to further indoctrinate their fellow Palestinians to hate Israelis even more. It won't be hard for them, they can just follow in the footsteps of Saudi Arabia.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/19/AR2006051901769.html
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23384657-details/We+do+use+books+that+call+Jews+'apes'+admits+head+of+Islamic+school/article.do

djpbarry wrote:

Sponsored by the good-ol' USA.

I already clearly stated my opposition to US and European support for a terrorist state like Saudi Arabia.

kreuzberger

zionism is an ideology like apartheid , racist and supremacist , conceived and implemented during the same era . Like apartheid its widely regarded as an affront to human dignity and decency . And like apartheid it will eventually crumble and falter under mounting worldwide disgust . Its an artificial entity and unsustainable in the long term for a variety of reasons . Particularly the mass of human suffering it inflicts .

Congratulations to Hamas for lifting the siege , despite the best effots of the zionists and the US administration to keep this inhuman treatment against a civilian population firmly in place .

djpbarry

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

It's as pointless as a pencil without a point if one side is using that time to build up its forces. Which is what hamas will do.

One side?!?

I would imagine it is far easier for Hamas to recruit for it's military operations in the current climate. If Palestinians are afforded a reasonable standard of living, young people are far more likely to turn their attention to professions such as doctors, lawyers and diplomats rather than suicide bombers.

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

A reasonable standard of living in their mini theocratic state. Where after you've given hamas control cause their such nice guys, they will be able to further indoctrinate their fellow Palestinians to hate Israelis even more.

First of all, may I remind you that Hamas were democratically elected. If the people of Palestine wish to be represented by Hamas, then that's their decision and it is not for us to dictate otherwise. In the same way, Sinn Féin are in power in Northern Ireland and it's not for us to interfere - they were democratically elected.

As I have already said, indoctrination is far easier when your oppressor is blowing away your neighbours and family on a regular basis.

Sesshoumaru

djpbarry wrote: »

One side?!?

I would imagine it is far easier for Hamas to recruit for it's military operations in the current climate. If Palestinians are afforded a reasonable standard of living, young people are far more likely to turn their attention to professions such as doctors, lawyers and diplomats rather than suicide bombers.

Really? I don't think so. The Islamic radical doctors who attacked Glasgow Airport didn't look poor or disadvantaged to me. I have no problem with the Palestinians being afforded a decent standard of living. We just need to destroy the cancer that is hamas first.

djpbarry wrote:

First of all, may I remind you that Hamas were democratically elected. If the people of Palestine wish to be represented by Hamas, then that's their decision and it is not for us to dictate otherwise. In the same way, Sinn Féin are in power in Northern Ireland and it's not for us to interfere - they were democratically elected.

As I have already said, indoctrination is far easier when your oppressor is blowing away your neighbours and family on a regular basis.

I don't care if Islamic radical thugs are elected or not. They are still thugs and terrorists. One thing though that interests me is will they win the next election whenever that's held? and the one after that? what happens when inevitably they've been in power too long and the people ask for change at the ballot box? Considering their views on secular government and democracy I doubt it. Once these Islamic radicals have a foothold they won't budge! You'll have some radical Islamic leader like in Iran who gets to "approve" who runs in elections and who doesn't.

Manic Moran

Ol Adolf was democratically elected as well, that worked out well for the German People. (Not an attempt to invoke Godwin, as no comparison is being made)

NTM

Dazrd

Sesshoumaru
Really? I don't think so. The Islamic radical doctors who attacked Glasgow Airport didn't look poor or disadvantaged to me.

No your right they were neither poor or disadvantaged but I guarantee the Iraq and the occupation paid a pretty big role in radicalizing them.

Sesshoumaru
I have no problem with the Palestinians being afforded a decent standard of living. We just need to destroy the cancer that is hamas first.

Your getting the cart before the horse unless you give them a better standard of living the cancer will continue to spread no matter how many cells you destroy.

eoin5

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

I have no problem with the Palestinians being afforded a decent standard of living. We just need to destroy the cancer that is hamas first.

If you get rid of Hamas then you will spawn something just as bad or worse to fill the vacuum. A palastinian generation growing up knowing only poverty and hatred is going to organise itself into something.

wes

Dazrd wrote: »

No your right they were neither poor or disadvantaged but I guarantee the Iraq and the occupation paid a pretty big role in radicalizing them.

Quite a few of the Doctors were Iraqi as well. I reckon it was one of the main reasons for there attack.

Sesshoumaru

wes wrote: »

Quite a few of the Doctors were Iraqi as well. I reckon it was one of the main reasons for there attack.

Right then, so they were indoctrinated by Baathist literature about the Iraq war to commit a suicide attack against a civilian target in the UK? or perhaps one of the main reasons was radical islam? I don't see what coalition forces have to apologise for in Iraq. The removed a dictator, they gave the gift of democracy! They didn't do the best job possible, but the main reason Iraq is such a desert hell-hole now is due to the radical islamic militia running the show in places like Basra. These people were there long before the UK and Uncle Sam invaded to overthrow Saddam. It's up to the Iraqi people themselves to decide whether they want to live in an islamic state where music is banned, no shaving of beards and women wear ninja outfits. Don't go giving these radical islamic thugs excuses for attacking The West.

Dazrd

Sesshoumaru
Right then, so they were indoctrinated by Baathist literature about the Iraq war to commit a suicide attack against a civilian target in the UK? or perhaps one of the main reasons was radical islam?

why not both ? why does it have to be either or.

Sesshoumaru
I don't see what coalition forces have to apologise for in Iraq. The removed a dictator, they gave the gift of democracy!

You dont give democracy it has to be earned at a grassroots level you cant just topple a dictator and declare democracy.

Sesshoumaru They didn't do the best job possible, but the main reason Iraq is such a desert hell-hole now is due to the radical islamic militia running the show in places like Basra.

yes the reason now is the militia's but had the coalition done there job right and gone in with enough troops to start with then the iraqi masses would not have had to look to the militia's for security, remember iraq was secular under Saddam for the last 50 years it was the lack of financial and physical security that radicalized them.

Sesshoumaru
These people were there long before the UK and Uncle Sam invaded to overthrow Saddam. It's up to the Iraqi people themselves to decide whether they want to live in an islamic state where music is banned, no shaving of beards and women wear ninja outfits.

True

Sesshoumaru
Don't go giving these radical islamic thugs excuses for attacking The West.

were not giving them excuses the west is, what you think they havent thought of these excuses themselves that if we just kept our mouth shut they'd be none the wiser as to whats going on in the middle east?

Sesshoumaru

Aren't we supposed to be discussing a wall?

Anyway my point on militias in Iraq would be that they were there before Saddams overthrow and demise. They didn't just spontaneously appear after the invasion. Saddam while he was in power kept these religious nut jobs in check. I mean what has making women wear veils got to do with security or the invasion?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2986962.stm

June 2003 and we see these radical muslims already enforcing their ideology. If you talk about the coalition needing more troops to stamp these thugs out, then I would say that's what we need now in Gaza before it's too late. Just because hamas runs a hospital or two doesn't make them any different in my eyes to the radical islamic thugs in Iraq. They are both cut from the same cloth and need urgent dealing with.

wes

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Right then, so they were indoctrinated by Baathist literature about the Iraq war to commit a suicide attack against a civilian target in the UK? or perhaps one of the main reasons was radical islam? I don't see what coalition forces have to apologise for in Iraq. The removed a dictator, they gave the gift of democracy! They didn't do the best job possible, but the main reason Iraq is such a desert hell-hole now is due to the radical islamic militia running the show in places like Basra. These people were there long before the UK and Uncle Sam invaded to overthrow Saddam. It's up to the Iraqi people themselves to decide whether they want to live in an islamic state where music is banned, no shaving of beards and women wear ninja outfits. Don't go giving these radical islamic thugs excuses for attacking The West.

I am making no excuses for them (the radicals, jihadists, or whatever there being called this week) btw. If you could point out these excuse I have made, I would appreciate it. Maybe my my wording was off, its certainly possible, but I was fairly sure what I typed was pretty simple, but I could be mistaken of course. To state it in terms that hopefully can't be misunderstood, these are there reasons plain and simple. Very simply violence begets violence. Coalitions invasion leads to more violences. Its a pretty common trend through out human history.

Of course you don't mentioned the original reason for the invasion. Which was of course imaginary WMD's. Of course, as we all know there was never any (well none that the West didn't sell Saddam), and hence a new reason for the invasion had to be found. Some justification for the West to control Iraqis oil fields, so what was originally an after taught, became the all new Casus Celli, of course the problem being that people aren't idiots and we remember all the bull**** from before and know better that to trusted Bush and Blair.

The coalition's altruism is very much in question. Just look at the so called democracy of Iraq, a democracy that could even expel the trigger happy mercenaries Blackwater. This incident was a perfect illustration of Iraqs government being a nothing more that a puppet regime who express purpose is to bow before there masters in Washington.

Then we also have to look at what is at best a clear case of criminal incompetence, that being the reconstruction. A complete and utter failure not to dissimilar to the failure to find WMD.

Then there is the torture and murder wrought by the collation. Of course these tend to be called collateral damage and we have to take a bunch of people who are blatant liars that this is really the case.

Then there are the soldiers who have watched one episode of 24 and seem to think torture is actually a decent method of intelligence gathering. Of course, at best the results are mixed, if not down right counter productive.

The there is Saddam. See Washington's problem with him was that he disobeyed them. Not that he was a viscous dictator at all. After all didn't the Washington, not help Saddam even when he was engaged in a war of aggression against Iran? Even when he was gassing Kurds (and Iranians of as well) during the same period.

You see, the coalition has a lot of apologize for. First and for most to the Iraqi people for the mess they made, for the years of sanctions that caused so much death, and for letting mercenaries murder Iraqis with impunity. Then to the people of there own nations who they dragged into a war under false pretenses.

wes

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

June 2003 and we see these radical muslims already enforcing their ideology. If you talk about the coalition needing more troops to stamp these thugs out, then I would say that's what we need now in Gaza before it's too late. Just because hamas runs a hospital or two doesn't make them any different in my eyes to the radical islamic thugs in Iraq. They are both cut from the same cloth and need urgent dealing with.

So the real issue of violence in the Israel/Palestine should of course be ignored then? The fact that all violence stems from Israel's continually land grabs and there apartheid state? Perhaps putting an end to this would help, seeing as that is what the conflict is all about. Israel ethnically cleansing Palestine to take possession of the land.

Of course radical racist Zionist thugs are friends to the West, so the rights and lives of Palestinians are worthless.

Oh and Hamas doesn't run a hospital or 2, they run the welfare state, what little there is of it. They are thugs, but they have done more for Palestinians than the "West" has (what with the West helping the theft of Palestine and all).

[sarcasm]
Its odd how Israel is so unpopular with Palestinians, what with Israel stealing most of the country and the ethnic cleansing and constant murder and humiliation (with gifts if billions of dollars of weapons from the USA) and all because they are the wrong race. The Palestinians really should have been born the right race really.
[/sarcasm]

Dazrd

Sesshoumaru
June 2003 and we see these radical muslims already enforcing their ideology. If you talk about the coalition needing more troops to stamp these thugs out, then I would say that's what we need now in Gaza before it's too late. Just because hamas runs a hospital or two doesn't make them any different in my eyes to the radical islamic thugs in Iraq. They are both cut from the same cloth and need urgent dealing with.

Yes they need dealing with but not militarily israel's used the stick hows about using the carrot improve their way of life and hamas's support will ebb away.

Sesshoumaru

I have no problem with Israel returning to its original borders. I think Israel should vacate the West Bank as they have already done in Gaza. But Gaza proved to me that once Israel withdraws it will be the radical islamic terrorists who take over. I wouldn't support any more withdrawals until there is no hamas or hamas clones left.

I don't support torah thumping radicals in the West Bank either. I don't count them or any other religious nut jobs as friends of The West.

hamas may administer their islamic welfare state, but the money for this comes from the EU principally. So saying The West has done nothing for them is just plain wrong.

None of my opinions are based on what race either side comes from. I don't know why you are bringing race into this now? islam and judaism are both religions last time I checked. Also the US is more racially diverse than any other country on this planet that I know of anyway.

Sesshoumaru

Dazrd wrote: »

Yes they need dealing with but not militarily israel's used the stick hows about using the carrot improve their way of life and hamas's support will ebb away.

Just because Western civilisation is superior doesn't mean they will choose our ways or that they will even be given that choice! My bet is there won't be a choice. hamas are in power now and they won't leave without blood being spilled.

wes

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

I have no problem with Israel returning to its original borders. I think Israel should vacate the West Bank as they have already done in Gaza. But Gaza proved to me that once Israel withdraws it will be the radical islamic terrorists who take over. I wouldn't support any more withdrawals until there is no hamas or hamas clones left.

I don't support torah thumping radicals in the West Bank either. I don't count them or any other religious nut jobs as friends of The West.

hamas may administer their islamic welfare state, but the money for this comes from the EU principally. So saying The West has done nothing for them is just plain wrong.

None of my opinions are based on what race either side comes from. I don't know why you are bringing race into this now? islam and judaism are both religions last time I checked. Also the US is more racially diverse than any other country on this planet that I know of anyway.

There are Christian Palestinians you know. They were ethnically cleansed too. Again, there main crime was of course being Palestinian. So lets not pretend the Palestinians being the wrong race had nothing to do with there ethnic cleansing. As for the US being racially diverse, well we are talking about Israel and Palestine, so the US racially diversity means nothing here. The US has no issues backing any number of vile racists, misogynistic, and bigoted regimes.

The West has armed Israel to the teeth and has allowed Israel to violate Palestinian human rights for years. Also, the West was instrumental in the Palestinians losing there home land and the West is also instrumental in them losing more and more of it with each passing day. You are right the West has given some money to the Palestinians, but the West are instrumental in Israel getting away with there constant land grabs and there abhorrent treatment of Palestinians. So the money amounts to very little than the West trying to absolve there own guilt.

Why should the West only deal with Hamas? Why not deal with Israel? Why not stop the military aid and in the case of the EU stop giving them favorable trade terms. The EU cut off aid when Hamas was elected. Why not do the same for Israel, when they violate international law, human rights, steal more land etc. Why not punish Israel for there blatant apartheid system or its crimes?

Hamas needs to be dealt with, but so does the blatantly racists state of Israel. No need to play favorites now is there, but the the "West" does that all the time. Its very clear to me that Palestinians lives and human rights are worth less than other peoples for some odd reason.

Hamas are not the problem, there a symptom of 60 years of misery of the Palestinian people. Misery largely due to there nation being taken away from them by the racist Zionist movement.

djpbarry

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

The Islamic radical doctors who attacked Glasgow Airport didn't look poor or disadvantaged to me.

I actually know very little about them, but anyway, you're talking about an extreme case here - it's hardly normal behaviour for doctors in Britain.

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

We just need to destroy the cancer that is hamas first.

Ask a Palestinian what they consider to be a cancer eating away at their society and they'll more than likely point you in the direction of the IDF. Essentially what you are saying here is, “we need to remove the Palestinians’ polarised, ideological response to their oppressors”. It would make far more sense to stop the oppression.

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

I don't care if Islamic radical thugs are elected or not. They are still thugs and terrorists.

But they still have a whole lot of support in Palestine and that's never going to change as long as the IDF continue with their current campaign.

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

You'll have some radical Islamic leader like in Iran who gets to "approve" who runs in elections and who doesn't.

The situation in Iran is very different and essentially resulted from US interference, but that's for another thread.

Manic Moran wrote: »

Adolf was democratically elected as well

Yes he was, because democracy isn't perfect. So do we restrict democracy to nations who are unlikely to elect "bad" people?

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

they gave the gift of democracy!

Bollocks.

Kev_ps3

Just a quick question, is this wall on Isreals territory?

wes

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Just a quick question, is this wall on Isreals territory?

No this wall is on Palestinian territory and separates Gaza from Egypt.

Lemming

wes wrote: »

Hamas needs to be dealt with, but so does the blatantly racists state of Israel. No need to play favorites now is there, but the the "West" does that all the time. Its very clear to me that Palestinians lives and human rights are worth less than other peoples for some odd reason.

Indeed, the west dealt with South Africa as if it was a pariah under apartheid so the means exists if not the political willpower at the present moment in time to force a reconsideration of ideology on the part of the Israeli populace.

Hamas are not the problem, there a symptom of 60 years of misery of the Palestinian people. Misery largely due to there nation being taken away from them by the racist Zionist movement.

That is probably the most succinct and insightful comment on hamas I think I have ever come across. Before Hamas, it was the PLO, before that ... etc. etc. At what point do you stop laying all the blame at the other guy's feet and start to question your own contribution to the state of affairs?

jonny72

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7218073.stm

"Israel's 2006 war against Hezbollah in Lebanon was a "large and serious" failure, according to an Israeli government-appointed inquiry."

Thats just for all the pro-war supporters who posted here in 2006 in support of the war.

I don't like how the Israelis seem to push that violence against them is the issue when it clearly isn't. If miners go on strike and the mining company/government intervene resulting in violence, that doesn't make violence the issue. The real issue is why they went on strike in the first place.