god hates ireland??

Whispered

Have you seen the God Hates Ireland website?? I'm seething, it's people like him that give religion a bad rep. I don't understand how someone can say that they believe in god, are god fearing etc etc and speak about anybody else like that. Surely that website cannot be legal, or at least some of the things he says, when he singles out specific people?

death1234567

helena.ryan wrote: »

Have you seen the God Hates Ireland website?? I'm seething, it's people like him that give religion a bad rep. I don't understand how someone can say that they believe in god, are god fearing etc etc and speak about anybody else like that. Surely that website cannot be legal, or at least some of the things he says, when he singles out specific people?

He's an idiot. Who cares what he thinks about anything,.

Whispered

Thats a better way of reacting to it than me I suppose.

CerebralCortex

I can sympathise with your emotions. I think the only way to deal with those people is a high powered assault rifle with armour piercing rounds. :mad:

Pompey Magnus

Apparently God hates Heath Ledger as well, his funeral is next on their agenda.

Anyways as I was saying in another thread, the reason these horrible people get away with things like that is because they can interpret the Bible as justifying them.

Dades

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055128604

FYI

Whispered

OOPs sorry

Dades

helena.ryan wrote: »

OOPs sorry

Heh. Don't worry - searching seems to be sooo last year.

robindch

helena.ryan wrote: »

I don't understand how someone can say that they believe in god, are god fearing etc etc and speak about anybody else like that.

There's no real link between belief in god, and being a nice person, although a lot of people who believe in god will tell you that there is.

The issue is that Phelps, like every other christian, is exerting what the Vatican refers to as the "Supremacy of Conscience", which basically boils down to the notion that one's own ideas are more important than anybody else's. Phelps has simply interpreted the bible to suit his own prejudices, just as more decent people interpret it to support being decent.

Whispered

robindch wrote: »

There's no real link between belief in god, and being a nice person, although a lot of people who believe in god will tell you that there is.

What I mean is that most religions preach God as love, so in theory being religious should make you a nicer person. But it obviously does not work that way. I know I'm using this as website as an example of hatered caused by belief in God but go back to the crusades, witch trials etc. It amazes me how many atrocities are committed in the name of God. How much hatered is caused by belief in God etc

robindch

helena.ryan wrote: »

What I mean is that most religions preach God as love, so in theory being religious should make you a nicer person.

Yes, that's what you'd expect, but that's not what seems to happen in practice. I think this arises from the fact that listening to preaching about love and being decent are two different things. The first doesn't take much effort, but the second one certainly does take effort. So the first one is more common.

I suspect I'll be accused of cynicism here, but that's the way it seems to work to me!

robindch

helena.ryan wrote: »

know I'm using this as website as an example of hatered caused by belief in God

Phelps is about as nasty as you can get and his following is pretty small. But some of the mainstream websites contain what I regard as pretty inflammatory material too. Here's a page from the most popular creationist website, AiG:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/OneBlood/chapter5.asp

In it, the authors say that a marriage between a christian and a non-christian will result in "negative consequences for the couple and their children" and implying that non-christians are under the influence of Satan.

As an atheist, I find it quite offensive that somebody will preach, with the infallible mandate of god, the idea that I can't be a decent parent or even a decent human because I don't believe that an invisible deity lives in the sky. What do you think would happen if I tried to marry the daughter of some impressionable person who believed this stuff?

Scofflaw

robindch wrote: »

Yes, that's what you'd expect, but that's not what seems to happen in practice. I think this arises from the fact that listening to preaching about love and being decent are two different things. The first doesn't take much effort, but the second one certainly does take effort. So the first one is more common.

I suspect I'll be accused of cynicism here, but that's the way it seems to work to me!

There's a sort of trichotomy, though: listening to preaching about love, being decent, and following what it says in the Bible.

One of the things that reinforced my early decision to be an atheist was that there was a complete divergence between the content of the Bible, and what people claim to be the message of Christianity - that "God is Love".

Funnily enough, "I'm going to get Biblical" does not mean "I will now be loving".

cordially,
Scofflaw

Whispered

That is just sickening, really ridiculous. This annoys me no end, someone I know will go to mass, he was brought up with it. I was brought up with mass too, but dont go. I put more thought into my life and the good (and bad) things I do than he does, yet he tells me the God would be unhappy with certain beliefs I have. Surely, whether you are athiest or theist or somewhere in between (like me) it is more important to live your life well than declare you believe in God then proceed to say and do hateful things to other people. I know I'm preaching to the converted here (:D:D:D) but I just wanted a bit of a rant.

Zulu

helena.ryan wrote: »

...I know I'm using this as website as an example of hatered caused by belief in God but go back to the crusades, witch trials etc. It amazes me how many atrocities are committed in the name of God. How much hatered is caused by belief in God etc

I think that's a little unfair. While you are right that many atrocities, and hate hides behind a "belief in God", or "God's work", it's really just an excuse for nasty people to do nasty things. If there was no concept of a god/God, the atrocities would continue, they are a part of human nature.

Zulu

helena.ryan wrote: »

Surely, whether you are athiest or theist or somewhere in between (like me) it is more important to live your life well than declare you believe in God then proceed to say and do hateful things to other people. I know I'm preaching to the converted here (:D:D:D) but I just wanted a bit of a rant.

I don't go to mass, and would consider myself agnostic, but I was raised a christian, and any priest I ever spoke to told me the same thing everytime: you don't need to be a christian, you just need to be a good person. If you go to mass and believe and have faith etc. well and good, but a good person is a good person, and a bad person, bad no amount of mass will change that.
The "God Hates..." people are just bad people. If their is a hell, they'll have a lot of explaining to do to get out of it I'd imagine!

Whispered

I didn't say otherwise Zulu. I said "committed in the name of God", is this not the case?
I know that if there was no concept of God these atrocities would still happen, just with different excuses. I just find it hard to grasp that these things happened in the name of ANYTHING which in another breath will be described as "all powerful" "all loving" etc. I cant see how, even to the most devout person, this makes sense. (Or made sense as the case is with the crusades/witch trials etc).

Say you are brought up a devout christian, God loves you, God loves sinners, sinners will be judged by God etc etc, where does it make sense for you to then go along with mass killing in the name of someone who you know loves these people you are killing (or punishing). You have been told from the start that God loves these people despite their "sins" and that God will judge them? I dont understand how it can turn around like that. It seems to go against everything that it preached.

Whispered

Zulu wrote: »

If you go to mass and believe and have faith etc. well and good, but a good person is a good person, and a bad person, bad no amount of mass will change that.

couldn't agree more

robindch

Zulu wrote: »

If there was no concept of a god/God, the atrocities would continue, they are a part of human nature.

That's a bit like killing somebody and saying that it's ok because the victim would have died sooner or later anyway. Wouldn't stand up in court...

In the simple case that I mentioned up above, where AiG implies that I'm a moral degenerate, do you think that this kind of prejudice would exist if religion wasn't there to create it?

Zulu

helena.ryan wrote: »

I didn't say otherwise Zulu. I said "committed in the name of God", is this not the case?

Sorry I picked you up wrong so.
Say you are brought up a devout ... I dont understand how it can turn around like that. It seems to go against everything that it preached.[/QUOTE]I know the mind boggles! I guess that why we commonly refer to them as whacko!

Pompey Magnus

Zulu wrote: »

but a good person is a good person, and a bad person, bad no amount of mass will change that.

Or as Steve Weinberg said “With or without [religion] you’d have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, it takes religion.”

Dave!

helena.ryan wrote: »

Say you are brought up a devout christian, God loves you, God loves sinners, sinners will be judged by God etc etc, where does it make sense for you to then go along with mass killing in the name of someone who you know loves these people you are killing (or punishing). You have been told from the start that God loves these people despite their "sins" and that God will judge them? I dont understand how it can turn around like that. It seems to go against everything that it preached.

The problem is, they aren't all brought up in the manner you described. I dunno what sent Fred Phelps nuts, but he turned into a "not very nice person", and ended up raising all his kids in the same way. He's clearly a rather terrifying person for any kid, and it's not really surprising that he was able to instill the same values in his kids. The family is so close that you can hardly see too many of the kids, after years of mental abuse, turning their back on what their dad says. Another generation later and you've got more kids instilled with the same beliefs, and parents to enforce them. They live rather insular lives, are not permitted to marry people who aren't members, and have the domineering presence of Fred Phelps in their family. Until he dies, I'm sure the same crap will continue, unless there's someone similar to him to fill the void.

Unless he does some sort of Ian Paisley-esque turnaround......... Cant see that happening though

I'm still expecting him to turn up somewhere in bed with an Irish-Swedish gay jewish bloke.

Zulu

robindch wrote: »

That's a bit like killing somebody and saying that it's ok because the victim would have died sooner or later anyway. Wouldn't stand up in court...

Not really. I don't see how you are drawing that connection. Care to explain?

I'm saying that a murderer will murder regardless of their supposed belief, not that a death will occur regardless. A homophobe will continue to hate homosexuals regardless of religion.

In the simple case that I mentioned up above, where AiG implies that I'm a moral degenerate, do you think that this kind of prejudice would exist if religion wasn't there to create it?

Sorry, what AiG? But to answer your question, yes in a sense. I honestly believe, these people would still hate difference.

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

Or as Steve Weinberg said “With or without [religion] you’d have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, it takes religion.”

Yea, I have a problem with that though, because I believe fundamentally it's not accurate. People can be made/encouraged to do bad things. (Nazi Germany is littered with examples) But religion is just a lazy scapegoat because it's so widely spread.
It's group mentality, it's bigger than religion - it's human nature. If our society says it's ok/good, then we are encouraged to do it and it becomes easy for us to do. (Our society here could be religion, government, social circle, family...)

But it's not exclusive to religion.

robindch

Zulu wrote: »

Not really. I don't see how you are drawing that connection. Care to explain?

I'm saying that excusing an evil by claiming that somebody else would do it if it wasn't you is no defense at all.

Zulu wrote: »

I'm saying that a murderer will murder regardless of their supposed belief, [...] A homophobe will continue to hate homosexuals regardless of religion.

More than likely, they won't hate them if they haven't been brought up to believe, usually with religious backing, that being gay is intrinsically evil, to pick one nasty example of what the Vatican currently says.

Likewise, if belief in god didn't exist, then being an atheist would have no meaning, and people like AiG wouldn't be able to assert (and get people to believe) that I'm a moral degenerate and utterly unsuitable as a partner and as a parent.

I'm also a bit perplexed that you think that religion doesn't encourage murder. Didn't you, for example, ever read any of the fatwas issued ahead of the WTC attackers that define the religious duty of muslims to murder Americans, jews and others?

Zulu

I distingush between a religion and a church.
I have yet to come across a religion that encourages murder.

Whispered

Very interesting the way this has gone.

Zulu, I also distinguish between religion and church and that is my point exactly. The church is a representative of that particular religion. But only to a point. What sort of faith, blinds someone to what their church is doing, in the name of their religion. Where is the line that people just wont cross. There doesn't seem to be one. The fact that people let their church overstep such marks speaks volumes about what people are actually looking for. I wonder how many people over history have thought "I know deep down that this is wrong, but my church tells me to do it, therefore it is not my fault"

If there was no religion, I think that homophobes (sp?) and other ignorant people would exist, people who are afraid of anything different to themselves. But the would not have the mask of religion to hide behind.

Zulu

helena.ryan wrote: »

I wonder how many people over history have thought "I know deep down that this is wrong, but my church tells me to do it, therefore it is not my fault"

Who knows! How many cowards* were there in history? Pick a number, and keep multiplying it I guess. <edit: maybe cowards is a bit harsh?>

But the would not have the mask of religion to hide behind.

True, although I've no doubt they'd find something else - people taking their jobs and the likes!

robindch

Zulu wrote: »

I distingush between a religion and a church.

Perhaps we're arguing using different terminology. Can you explain what you understand the difference to be?

Zulu wrote: »

I have yet to come across a religion that encourages murder.

That's easy!

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrorism/international/fatwa_1996.html (Bin Laden says kill people)
http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/980223-fatwa.htm (Bin Laden says kill people)
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7201.htm (Bin Laden says kill people)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=leviticus%2020:12-13;&version=31; (Leviticus says kill people)

There's plenty more out there.

Pompey Magnus

Zulu wrote: »

Yea, I have a problem with that though, because I believe fundamentally it's not accurate. People can be made/encouraged to do bad things. (Nazi Germany is littered with examples) But religion is just a lazy scapegoat because it's so widely spread.
It's group mentality, it's bigger than religion - it's human nature. If our society says it's ok/good, then we are encouraged to do it and it becomes easy for us to do. (Our society here could be religion, government, social circle, family...)

But it's not exclusive to religion.

I agree with you to a point, religion certainly isn't the root of all evil, but I believe it can provide a fertile breeding ground for these roots to develop. Religion promotes group mentality and does not encourage individuality or critcal thinking and to have entire populations who are used to such unquestioning loyalty is obviously open to abuse.

The Russian Orthodox religion and its centuries of serf mind-control made it easy for Stalin to do what he did without a mass uprising, Hitler took advantage of the anti-semitism taught by the Catholic church and Luther to justify his persecution of the Jews. Emperor Hirohito was a God to the Japanese people and they believed that the entire moral structure of their country would collapse should they rise up against him. Mussolini fostered good relations with the Catholic Church to win over the hearts of the deeply religious Italians. The same with General Franco.

It is possible that none of these men may have been truely religious (Stalin and Mussolini certainly weren't and Hitler probably wasn't) but that isn't the point. They saw an opening and used religion to first gain and later abuse their positions. If their subjects had been brought up without the sheep mentality that religion promotes and instead taught to be critical thinkers, as people who felt free to question their leaders without fear of divine retribution, would they have so willingly followed them into committing acts of unspeakable evil? I personally would doubt it. This certainly isn't to say that without religion evil wouldn't happen, just that it makes it easier.

aidan24326

helena.ryan wrote: »

I'm seething, it's people like him that give religion a bad rep

In all fairness Helena it isn't. The catholic church and other mainstream religious organisations have done a pretty good job of that by themselves, without any help from the Phelps family. We know the Phelps and their minions are just twisted sickos, and despite all their ranting and raving they don't have many followers anyway. What's worst of all imo is that they're given a platform at all, being invited on tv shows etc.

godhatesireland wrote:

Ireland is notorious for being huge supporters of the evil monstrosity that is the Catholic "church." You can't get much more demonic than supporting an institution that damns souls to Hell on a daily basis.

They do make sense just the odd time however.

rgt320q

godhatesireland wrote:

Ireland is notorious for being huge supporters of the evil monstrosity that is the Catholic "church." You can't get much more demonic than supporting an institution that damns souls to Hell on a daily basis.

Ooh, the hypocrisy.