Real and Barca have no class

Y2J_MUFC

nipplenuts wrote: »

What about Tevez. Was he not a West Ham player when he took a medical fo Man Utd?

Ah in fairness thats a completely different situation. He wasn't owned by West Ham at any stage. He was on loan to them (after they were fined), he was owned by MSI. Plus, I think its unfair to say that United used the media to their benefit for that. The media was ALL OVER the Tevez story from the minute any of that funnyness came out between MSI & West Ham. Its completely different from Real saying "We're signing Fabregas", "We're signing Ronaldo", "We wanted to sign Kaka but he's not good enough for us now"...."We will buy all of them sure, and good old Kingy over here will bail us out when we go t!ts up on the finances".

Morf

Y2J_MUFC wrote: »

and good old Kingy over here will bail us out when we go t!ts up on the finances".

Its Rey Juan Carlos I to you, squire . .. .

jank

Tbh, I find Arsenal's* youth policy a lot more worrying than players being tapped up or unsettled. Poaching some of the best talent around Europe before they can sign a professional contract with their home clubs, so as to get around the 90 minute rule. Cesc Fabregas is the one that instantly springs to mind. It's not illegal but it's certainly far from ethical.

*I know a lot of other clubs do this but Arsenal seem to be the worst culprits imho.

Horse $hit to be honest. EVERY club does this now. Just Arsenal are better then everyone else at doing it. Would you rather they pay 16 Million for the likes of Darren Bent to keep xenaphobes in the english media happy.

Again, its Wenger fault that the english national team is $hit!:p

Regarding the Real Madrid and Barca's tactics in signing big players. It was the same **** all the time with Vieira first, then Henry, now Cesc! Bunch of ***** the both of them!

An Citeog

jank wrote: »

Horse $hit to be honest. EVERY club does this now. Just Arsenal are better then everyone else at doing it. Would you rather they pay 16 Million for the likes of Darren Bent to keep xenaphobes in the english media happy.

Again, its Wenger fault that the english national team is $hit!:p

Regarding the Real Madrid and Barca's tactics in signing big players. It was the same **** all the time with Vieira first, then Henry, now Cesc! Bunch of ***** the both of them!

Horse $hit. Every club uses the media to their advantage and most of the top managers get involved in psychological games with others. Again, I'm well aware that every club does it, it's just that Arsenal seem to bring in a huge amount of young players for nominal fees rather than signing established players.

Tbh, the reason I used Arsenal as an example is because the OP stated that he was an Arsenal fan. He picked 2 clubs out and started a thread about how they have no class. Why exactly? Is it because the way they go about things upsets you as an Arsenal fan? I'm sure a lot of fans of those smaller clubs from which Arsenal poached some of their young starlets could accuse your club of the exact same thing. Just my 2 cents.

WhiteWashMan

I know barca do it, but I think Real do it as well.
You know, When they vote in their President or whatever, and all the candidates say who they will transfer in?

I mean, doesnt anyone else think thats a bit rediculous to be saying openly to the public that if youre voted in you will get x, y and z, when x, y and z are sitting in their living rooms going 'huh?'

An Citeog

WhiteWashMan wrote: »

I know barca do it, but I think Real do it as well.
You know, When they vote in their President or whatever, and all the candidates say who they will transfer in?

I mean, doesnt anyone else think thats a bit rediculous to be saying openly to the public that if youre voted in you will get x, y and z, when x, y and z are sitting in their living rooms going 'huh?'

True, but on the flipside, you've got a club controlled by its members rather than shareholders. FC Barcelona is the largest club in the world with over 100,000 members (or so I believe). I definitely find it weird though but it's the same as any politician getting elected, and that's exactly what it is. When Laporta was running for election, his campaign included the promise to sign David Beckham. They missed out on him and signed Ronaldinho instead. That's the side of things that I'm not exactly fond of but I don't think you can fault him for anything else. The BBC made a fly on the wall documentary about Laporta's first season at the Camp Nou called "Barcelona:The Inside Story" and it really shows you the motivation of those at the club. Definitely worth a watch.

That's actually one of the main reasons I posted in this thread. The OP directly accused Barça of having no class, whereas I would be of the completely opposite opinion.

jank

An Citeog wrote: »

Horse $hit. Every club uses the media to their advantage and most of the top managers get involved in psychological games with others.

Can you give me an example where Wenger used psychological games to sign a player from another team?

An Citeog wrote: »

Again, I'm well aware that every club does it, it's just that Arsenal seem to bring in a huge amount of young players for nominal fees rather than signing established players.

And?? Whats wrong with that?

An Citeog wrote: »

Tbh, the reason I used Arsenal as an example is because the OP stated that he was an Arsenal fan. He picked 2 clubs out and started a thread about how they have no class. Why exactly?

For reasons mentioned in this thread, using the media to tap up players and put them under presure. No other clubs are that blatent!

An Citeog wrote: »

Is it because the way they go about things upsets you as an Arsenal fan?

Yes, it does! Would it not upset you?

For untied fans get ready for a summer of "Ronaldo to spain"

An Citeog wrote: »

I'm sure a lot of fans of those smaller clubs from which Arsenal poached some of their young starlets could accuse your club of the exact same thing. Just my 2 cents.

Examples!?

Not all clubs are the lowest common denominator:rolleyes:

cson

"they stole clichy" - lol, is he still on the missing persons list over in France?

Tbh, I don't agree with the way the big clubs, Arsenal included, poach youngsters off smaller clubs. But the difference between Arsenal and most clubs is that the kids brought to Arsenal will more than likely get their game. What other big club in the world gives youngsters that chance?

An Citeog

jank wrote: »

Can you give me an example where Wenger used psychological games to sign a player from another team?

Can you give me an example where either Barça or Real Madrid have actually gone on to sign a player after playing such "psychological games"?

jank wrote: »

And?? Whats wrong with that?

Quite a few of Arsenal's first team squad were snapped up from other academies. Obviously I don't know the details behind the transfers but I'm sure the other clubs would have loved to have been able to hold onto the players they developed. The problem is, players can sign professional contracts in England at 17, whereas in Spain (afaik) and other countries it's 18. That means English clubs can swoop in and these players nice lucrative contracts to come and join them. As I've already stated, I don't agree with this.

What about the Flamini signing or more recently, the signing of Fran Mérida. Barcelona are still waiting on the €3.2million compensation for him.:rolleyes:

jank wrote: »

For reasons mentioned in this thread, using the media to tap up players and put them under presure. No other clubs are that blatent!

Chelsea!;) Also, see above.

jank wrote: »

Yes, it does! Would it not upset you?

For untied fans get ready for a summer of "Ronaldo to spain"

Yeah, same as the summer before last. I'm a United fan, so I'm fairly used to it by now. That interview with his mother was very low though. It still doesn't mean I believe the crap that's printed.

jank wrote: »

Examples!?

Not all clubs are the lowest common denominator:rolleyes:

Again, look above.

PHB

I think the fact that Real are using the fact the Ronaldo's mum is very ill (she has been diagnosed with Cancer) and that Ronaldo is obviously going to want to make his mum happy, to try and get him to move. To be honest, I think that's why Real are worse than any other club in the world at this lark. All clubs do 'bad' things, but Real take it to new levels.

jank

An Citeog wrote: »

Can you give me an example where either Barça or Real Madrid have actually gone on to sign a player after playing such "psychological games"?

LOL! your the one that mentioned this "psychological games". Not me. Therefore the requirement of proof is on you

An Citeog wrote: »

Quite a few of Arsenal's first team squad were snapped up from other academies. Obviously I don't know the details behind the transfers but I'm sure the other clubs would have loved to have been able to hold onto the players they developed. The problem is, players can sign professional contracts in England at 17, whereas in Spain (afaik) and other countries it's 18. That means English clubs can swoop in and these players nice lucrative contracts to come and join them. As I've already stated, I don't agree with this.

Fair enough, but as i said would you rather to have Arsenal pay 16 million for the likes of Darren Bent.
At the end of the day nobody is putting a gun to these kids head to make them play for Arsenal. Im sure alot of them jumped at the chance to work with Wenger and get a chance to break into the first team of one of the worlds biggest clubs. Because of this the Arsenal Youth system there is arguably the best out there. Wenger's faith in youth is unquestionable.

An Citeog wrote: »

What about the Flamini signing or more recently, the signing of Fran Mérida. Barcelona are still waiting on the €3.2million compensation for him.:rolleyes:

There was issue about flamini alright that was sorted by a payment of an extra half million.
FIFA and the International Court of Arbitration for Sport ruled in Arsenal's favour.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/a/arsenal/4175285.stm

Mérida was out of contract and actually approached a number of clubs including Arsenal via his agent to his availability. Barca sued him, not the club (although that maybe being pedantic). This is under appeal and its important to recognise that this was a ruling made in Spain that has no legal basis in England. Also the remember the EU law of free trade of goods, people and all that.

In saying that though the EU and UEFA will have to sort out these incidents and have clear definitions of the rules

Anyway thats going a bit of topic. Not much mud sticking to Arsenal to these claims although they may be threading the line on a few occasions. Some clubs buldoze their way over that line and roll over it for good measure.

An Citeog wrote: »

Chelsea!;) Also, see above.

They are a new kid on the block, they wont be around to challenge in a few years time. But your right, what they did with Cole was repugnant. Blessing in disguise though!
Cole who?

An Citeog wrote: »

Yeah, same as the summer before last. I'm a United fan, so I'm fairly used to it by now. That interview with his mother was very low though. It still doesn't mean I believe the crap that's printed.

Well prepare for it for the next 4 years then until Ronaldo does **** off somewhere. Then the same **** will start for your then best player and so on. If your happy with that then fine! Although if i catch you whinging about it on the united thread then......:p

I think there hasnt been a year this decade that barca or madrid havent tried to sign one of the Arsenal first XI.

An Citeog wrote: »

Again, look above.

Different question, not answered.....:cool:

PHB

The side thing I'd point out is that Fergie has never had to sell a player he didn't want to sell. I think Ronaldo is going to go, but there's pretty much no doubt in my mind that he'll be at United as long as Fergie is.

Y2J_MUFC

PHB wrote: »

The side thing I'd point out is that Fergie has never had to sell a player he didn't want to sell. I think Ronaldo is going to go, but there's pretty much no doubt in my mind that he'll be at United as long as Fergie is.

I think so too. I reckon Fergie will go when he's 70. Thats in 2012, and thats when Rooney & Ronaldo are contracted until. Unless Quieroz takes over, I'd say Ronny will go then.

Fergie wanted to sell Ruud, he wanted to sell Beckham, and he wanted liverpool not to have Gabi. Thats why we sold them. He will sell Ronaldo when hell freezes over!

PHB

Exactly, and in footballing terms, there's no reason for Ronaldo to leave, United are just gettting better and better, and looking like they can challenge in the league and in Europe, and Real know it. Hence why they are trying the personal approach.

An Citeog

jank wrote: »

LOL! your the one that mentioned this "psychological games". Not me. Therefore the requirement of proof is on you

What I actually said was,

An Citeog wrote:

Every club uses the media to their advantage and most of the top managers get involved in psychological games with others.

The OP was complaining about Real and Barça unsettling players. All I said was that psychology plays a large part in modern football and managers (including Wenger) will try their best to unsettle opponents and put pressure on referees. Everyone does it, but it doesn't mean it's right.

jank wrote: »

Fair enough, but as i said would you rather to have Arsenal pay 16 million for the likes of Darren Bent.
At the end of the day nobody is putting a gun to these kids head to make them play for Arsenal. Im sure alot of them jumped at the chance to work with Wenger and get a chance to break into the first team of one of the worlds biggest clubs. Because of this the Arsenal Youth system there is arguably the best out there. Wenger's faith in youth is unquestionable.

Can't disagree with you here and it's what makes Wenger one of the best managers around.

jank wrote: »

There was issue about flamini alright that was sorted by a payment of an extra half million.
FIFA and the International Court of Arbitration for Sport ruled in Arsenal's favour.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/a/arsenal/4175285.stm

Mérida was out of contract and actually approached a number of clubs including Arsenal via his agent to his availability. Barca sued him, not the club (although that maybe being pedantic). This is under appeal and its important to recognise that this was a ruling made in Spain that has no legal basis in England. Also the remember the EU law of free trade of goods, people and all that.

In saying that though the EU and UEFA will have to sort out these incidents and have clear definitions of the rules

Anyway thats going a bit of topic. Not much mud sticking to Arsenal to these claims although they may be threading the line on a few occasions. Some clubs buldoze their way over that line and roll over it for good measure.

Again, I've already stated that Arsenal are fine with what they're doing legally. It's the ethical side of this that I have a problem with.

jank wrote: »

They are a new kid on the block, they wont be around to challenge in a few years time. But your right, what they did with Cole was repugnant. Blessing in disguise though!
Cole who?

It turned out to be a brilliant deal for Arsenal and both Gallas and Clichy have been immense this season. I'm sure you weren't thinking that at the time though and were fairly pi5sed off with both Chelsea and Cole.

jank wrote: »

Well prepare for it for the next 4 years then until Ronaldo does **** off somewhere. Then the same **** will start for your then best player and so on. If your happy with that then fine! Although if i catch you whinging about it on the united thread then......:p

I think there hasnt been a year this decade that barca or madrid havent tried to sign one of the Arsenal first XI.

I really dislike Madrid as a club and some of their actions have been nothing short of despicable, particularly this latest shít with Ronaldo's mother. That's just brought things to a new low!:mad:

I object to Barça being labeled as having no class though, as I believe Barça to be one of the classiest clubs around. I just like what it represents and the way they do things. That and they have players like Xavi, Messi and Iniesta!:cool:

jank wrote: »

Different question, not answered.....:cool:

Got me there. Do Marseille count?!:o

jank

An Citeog wrote: »

What I actually said was,



The OP was complaining about Real and Barça unsettling players. All I said was that psychology plays a large part in modern football and managers (including Wenger) will try their best to unsettle opponents and put pressure on referees. Everyone does it, but it doesn't mean it's right.

But we are talking about unsettling induvidual players at clubs. Not when one team is battling it out the title. Chalk and Cheese. Wenger has never used the media to unsettle other players he wants to buy. Come to mind Fergie hasnt either.

An Citeog wrote: »

Again, I've already stated that Arsenal are fine with what they're doing legally. It's the ethical side of this that I have a problem with.

Fair enough. But why is it Arsenal's responsibility to take care of these (poorer) clubs when they have no legal or moral obligation to.

An Citeog wrote: »

It turned out to be a brilliant deal for Arsenal and both Gallas and Clichy have been immense this season. I'm sure you weren't thinking that at the time though and were fairly pi5sed off with both Chelsea and Cole.

I was pissed off with the way he turned his back on his club that brought him through the ranks for 5k a week. When you look up greedy in the dictionary you see a picture of him beside its definition. He made his bed now he can lie in it!

An Citeog wrote: »

I object to Barça being labeled as having no class though, as I believe Barça to be one of the classiest clubs around. I just like what it represents and the way they do things. That and they have players like Xavi, Messi and Iniesta!:cool:

Barca do have class but it has been tarnished heavily by the actions of a few regarding player transfers. It seems lately they want to match madrid in that matter.

gosplan

KdjaCL wrote: »

Good ones? Watching Owusu Wusu Obeyie(sp?) tonight does he count or do your forget about the ones that were let go? Larrson Pennant etc:

kdjac

That's the point. I don't remember any huge problems over these transfers, aprart form the Quincy one - but that's to do with an unlicensed agent rather than taking him off Ajax.

As regards Pennant. I think Notts were happy with that - paying a 2nd division club 2 million fee for a 15 year old? He had barely kicked a ball for them and they made a record transfer fee. Can't really recall them complaining too much.

If what you and An Citeog are complaining about is bringing in youth players then you need to seriously think about that - because it's rather important. All clubs need to do it and all clubs do it. Should no young Irish player go for trials across the water?

My complaint about Real and Barca is they make no approach to the player or the club, rather approach their family and then run stories about how they 'belong' there in the media.

Arsenal scout young players but do it largely by the book. Barca are unhappy that Arsenal can offer 16 year olds a chance at team football in the premiership whereas their own hands are tied. If Arsenal make a reasonable approach for the player then surely Barca's complaints are with Spanish regulations.


I love you too by the way.

astrofool

wow, big quote reply's on the soccer forum, 'tis a dark day indeed

eZe^

An Citeog wrote: »

This has been going on since the time of Franco and is a major reason for the animosity between Barça and Real fans. One of Real's greatest ever players, Alfredo Di Stefano, was literally stolen from Barça before he even got a chance to play for them. Hatred, jealousy, bitterness, call it what you like but it doesn't half make for an entertaining derby!

Dont forget the numerous league titles they won thanks to Franco intimdating any opposition. Barca were 1 goal up in a Copa Del Rey match and Franco (or maybe some of his goons) visited the dressing room and Barca conveniently lost that game 11-2 or something like that. And of course the supression of the Catalans under Franco for so many years. The rivalry almost goes past football...

I dont think its fair to single out Barca or Madrid for doing this. What about AC Milan CONSTANTLY saying that Ronaldinho will be bought by them in the summer for the past 2 years, or Inter saying they'd be willing to spend up to 80 million on Messi. Its media crap and you need to take it all with a pinch of salt lads.

The thing thats most unfair is the fact that La Liga has strict rules on offering professional contracts to youngsters, so teams like Arsenal and other PL clubs have the advantage of luring young stars away with promises of fame and stardom because its more restricted in La Liga.

Jazzy

astrofool wrote: »

wow, big quote reply's on the soccer forum, 'tis a dark day indeed

well there is ppl going around calling Ronaldo "V7per" so it is becomming more like a gaming forum...

Qs

eZe^ wrote: »

Its media crap and you need to take it all with a pinch of salt lads.

Media crap that originates from news papers like Marca and El Mundo Deportivo which are fed by the clubs.

An Citeog

jank wrote: »

But we are talking about unsettling induvidual players at clubs. Not when one team is battling it out the title. Chalk and Cheese. Wenger has never used the media to unsettle other players he wants to buy. Come to mind Fergie hasnt either.

And that's why I asked when has it ever worked for either club? Tbh, I think it's more media fuelled than anything.

jank wrote: »

Fair enough. But why is it Arsenal's responsibility to take care of these (poorer) clubs when they have no legal or moral obligation to.

I was pissed off with the way he turned his back on his club that brought him through the ranks for 5k a week. When you look up greedy in the dictionary you see a picture of him beside its definition. He made his bed now he can lie in it!

Barca do have class but it has been tarnished heavily by the actions of a few regarding player transfers. It seems lately they want to match madrid in that matter.

Meh, this is just going to go round and round. Suffice to say, as an Arsenal fan, you've every right to be delighted with this policy. I just don't view it in the same light as you.

eZe^ wrote: »

Dont forget the numerous league titles they won thanks to Franco intimdating any opposition. Barca were 1 goal up in a Copa Del Rey match and Franco (or maybe some of his goons) visited the dressing room and Barca conveniently lost that game 11-2 or something like that. And of course the supression of the Catalans under Franco for so many years. The rivalry almost goes past football...

I dont think its fair to single out Barca or Madrid for doing this. What about AC Milan CONSTANTLY saying that Ronaldinho will be bought by them in the summer for the past 2 years, or Inter saying they'd be willing to spend up to 80 million on Messi. Its media crap and you need to take it all with a pinch of salt lads.

The thing thats most unfair is the fact that La Liga has strict rules on offering professional contracts to youngsters, so teams like Arsenal and other PL clubs have the advantage of luring young stars away with promises of fame and stardom because its more restricted in La Liga.

That's exactly how I view it!:)

Qs wrote: »

Media crap that originates from news papers like Marca and El Mundo Deportivo which are fed by the clubs.

Do you believe everything you read in the Sun aswell? It's their job to stir shít up and they're very good at it.