Uncompleted Websites

Sully

Hey,

Just curious as to what you Webmasters would do in the following situations.

Say some company approached you, and asked you to develop a website for there new safety businesses for building. They ask you to purchase a domain name and setup webmail for them. They pay a deposit. You complete the design, and they are happy with it and promise to get back to you soon with the content they want on each page.

Several months down the line, they still have not provided the content and the site is sitting there uncompleted. They are not contactable. What do you do now?

It was suggested to me that you could tell them there will be a late penalty for every week the site is sitting around waiting for the clients content. I'm not to sure I like this idea, but I can see how it might work. You did not get fully paid, and each month your getting billed for hosting the site (including any account for the development site).

What would your next course of action be? Suspend the site for not paying the bill, and continue to be at a loss for the site work?

mick.fr

Send a registered letter with a deadline for a response. Nothing too rude though, they are a customer after all.
But you are here to make money man, you are not the Red Cross.
If no response, shut them down, end of story.

Sully

And if they come back after the deadline? Do I have some sort of fee?

Iv done it on Discover Tramore, a few businesses by the one owner didnt pay so I took them of after the deadline. But thats slightly different!

squibs

This kind of thing is why I'm looking more to contracts for anything more than a small brochure site. I try to set a timeline. I say I can start on x and finish by y. If they agree to get me all content by x and dont, then I have other customers timelines to consider, and there's a penalty clause.

If it's explained up front, along with the deposit, only about 1 in 10 has an issue with it.

Laslo

If you haven't protected yourself with a contract which outlines the terms of your agreement, then you don't have a leg to stand on. But by all means, take down the site if you can if it's a case where they're ignoring you.

Eoin

I've found that getting content is often the longest part of the whole process. If I didn't get the content after a month, I would bill for the entire site, stating that the design & dev is completed. Of course, if you're doing a CMS for them, send them the manual for it, and tell them to update it themselves.

Also, you may want to review your billing method. I got badly stung by a so called mate before, so now it's around 50% up front, once the customer is happy with the design concept.

wheres me jumpa

agree with eoin_s, I would generally ask for a down payment to commence work.

Sully

I ask for 50% up front (Got stung myself!) and I got it from this client ages ago. That was after having the design & dev done for ages, and he promissed the content within a few weeks. Nothing yet, months late, and I have tried contacting him but it just goes ignored.

I took the costs of hosting & domain from the 50% but I still owe money since its been a few months since I paid of the previous bills. So I have hosting bills and staff bills. It had been suggested I tell him for each week I am waiting there will be a penalty added onto his final bill. Either that, or simply shut the site down.. and be at a loss. Or I could simply send in the invoices for the remainder of the work but even if they pay it, they will end up back looking for me to fit the content (did not request a CMS) - do I charge or what?

I dont do contracts, I normally state very clearly about the project in the email they agree to. No discussion of deadlines, most people so far have been re-designs so we just take the content of the old site

Laslo

I dont do contracts

That could very well come back and bite you in the ass. Email paper trails don't stand up in court.

Sully

Laslo wrote: »

That could very well come back and bite you in the ass. Email paper trails don't stand up in court.

Even if I have one email stating the whole project and they confirm by agreeing? Would there not be a large cost in setting up contracts per client?

Eoin

Sully wrote:

Or I could simply send in the invoices for the remainder of the work but even if they pay it, they will end up back looking for me to fit the content (did not request a CMS) - do I charge or what?

I wouldn't charge extra, because you're not doing any extra work for them, you're just doing it at a later date.

As I said, I've found finalising the content the most drawn out part of a lot of projects - even getting placeholder content is a pain, let alone the small corrections. If you can get a really adaptable CMS, it's nearly worth applying to every site you do, just so you can give the client a log on and tell them to work away.

One of the first things I say to people is that this is the part that will most likely delay the site. I try and get place holder content for all the pages, so at least there is something there, and the site can put live when the design and dev parts have been completed. Then as far as you are concerned, your side of the job is done. How much time you allow for content updates can then be negotiated.

Sully

I give a year myself for each project, but nobody ever takes it up anyway.

So, it looks like send the bill for the site completed, and then what? Do I launch the site without the content?

Eoin

My opinion is that if you don't have any presentable content, just send the bill stating that it's good to go live as agreed. I would only go live if there was some sort of semi-decent content here.

Follow it up with another email detailing each page that needs content. If they asked you to define the structure of the site, then perhaps suggest the nature of the content that you would expect on each page.

Sully

eoin_s wrote: »

My opinion is that if you don't have any presentable content, just send the bill stating that it's good to go live as agreed. I would only go live if there was some sort of semi-decent content here.

Follow it up with another email detailing each page that needs content. If they asked you to define the structure of the site, then perhaps suggest the nature of the content that you would expect on each page.

The site is designed and prepared, all that it waits is content. Due to the type of business it is, I couldn't write up any sort of content for it - at all. So its the design with no content.

Then there is hosting of the "Coming Soon" page which I would add to the bill.

kjt

Would you all not think about designing/developing the website on your own hosting account first? Once it's ready to go live, buy & transfer it over to their hosting?

colm_c

kjt wrote: »

Would you all not think about designing/developing the website on your own hosting account first? Once it's ready to go live, buy & transfer it over to their hosting?

What he said.

Any kind of work that I've done is always done on my servers and hosted somewhere public so the client can see it when it's ready, we get the client to sign up for the hosting and domain themselves rather than us so the bills go to them, we then just transfer the site when ready.

You should always have a contract, no matter how small the project, you just need a solicitor to draft one version of a contract with placeholders for company names, project name, dates, costs etc. and then just reuse it. You can also get some contract templates on the net, but definitely get a solicitor to review it.

In your current situation, I would send a registered letter to the client giving him 10 days to get back to you with, otherwise the site will be shutdown (stop the hosting account) and there will a 20% lateness charge if he wants to take up the work after this 10 day period.

Learn from this mistake of no contracts and move on - your time would be better spent working on another project that actually pays.

The Corinthian

You don't need a solicitor, you just need to know how to draw up a deliverables document and how to outline your T&C's.

Sully, you are in no position to threaten your client. Ultimately they either need your work or they don't and if they don't then they can walk away without losing anything - this is the reason that some money up front is a good idea.

Laslo

The Corinthian wrote: »

You don't need a solicitor, you just need to know how to draw up a deliverables document and how to outline your T&C's.

Sully, you are in no position to threaten your client. Ultimately they either need your work or they don't and if they don't then they can walk away without losing anything - this is the reason that some money up front is a good idea.

Spot on. It amazes me how amateur this industry can be sometimes. I even had a designer tell me that if their client didn't pay up, he's go and sit in or outside their offices making noise until they did. I mean, come on!

If you want to sell Web design and/or development services as a professional, then act like one. Draw up contracts and insist your clients sign them, ensure that you've protected yourself with late payment and clauses which outline responsibilities of all parties involved, get a solicitor to proof and approve your contract before you start to use it, etc. Really basic business stuff which will not only ensure that you get paid, it'll also ensure that you don't get sued.

The Corinthian

Laslo wrote: »

I even had a designer tell me that if their client didn't pay up, he's go and sit in or outside their offices making noise until they did. I mean, come on!

Unfortunately that is sometimes necessary in small business - after all, how do you think debt collectors operate? One of the problems with small business in Ireland is that it does not make fiscal sense to chase up debts below, say, €5,000. The small claims court does not cover such debts (unlike the UK small claims court), which leaves small businesses in the position that to pursue such debts can actually cost more in legal fees than the debt itself. As a result, doorstepping the client is not uncommon.

A simple rule of thumb in business in Ireland is that a client will either need you again in the future (other projects, maintenance, etc.) or they will not. And if they do not then you are exposed to being left short - and if the amount is low enough, then no contract will protect you.

get a solicitor to proof and approve your contract before you start to use it, etc.

Yes and no. Unless the project differs drastically from past ones, chances are you will end up simply using variations on the same contract, so you will only need a solicitor once. In many cases, small businesses will have grabbed a sample from another source (such as a previous employer) and used this as a template, thus avoiding the use of solicitors altogether.

What is more important is to learn about project management and business analysis. Ultimately whatever deliverables document will be the contract for what they are going to get from you, so knowing how to write and structure one is as important as any T&C document that would compliment it.

Sully, I don't know what size your company is although the fact that you have staff overheads would indicate that you really are large enough that you should know better than to do business in such a fly-by-night fashion. I suggest you either learn and adopt formal project management methodologies (they don't have to be enterprise level UML based ones) or hire someone who can implement them in your company. Otherwise this is something that will happen to you again and again and again.

Sully

The Corinthian wrote: »

You don't need a solicitor, you just need to know how to draw up a deliverables document and how to outline your T&C's.

I would of assumed outlining this in an email would have been okay, and they agree to it. However, I will clean it up a bit and get them to sign it in future - and check with our solicitor first to make sure it all stands up if needed.

Sully, you are in no position to threaten your client. Ultimately they either need your work or they don't and if they don't then they can walk away without losing anything - this is the reason that some money up front is a good idea.

Its been several months since the project was finished, so I came here looking for suggestions on the best approach. No approach had been decided. A deposit was already taken.

The Corinthian wrote: »

Sully, I don't know what size your company is although the fact that you have staff overheads would indicate that you really are large enough that you should know better than to do business in such a fly-by-night fashion. I suggest you either learn and adopt formal project management methodologies (they don't have to be enterprise level UML based ones) or hire someone who can implement them in your company. Otherwise this is something that will happen to you again and again and again.

Only started this summer, been pretty busy since. Having staff doesnt mean we are a big business. This is the first time it has ever happened and all projects since this one have also been okay. However, to cover myself in future I will be taking your suggestions and sorting it out. Cheers.

The Corinthian

Sully wrote: »

I would of assumed outlining this in an email would have been okay, and they agree to it. However, I will clean it up a bit and get them to sign it in future - and check with our solicitor first to make sure it all stands up if needed.

Making a song and dance about how something is an agreed and binding document will if nothing else grab a client's attention. Half of the battle in agreeing a spec with a client is getting them to pay attention to what they are agreeing to, TBH.

Having staff doesnt mean we are a big business.

You don't need to be a big business to act professionally. My point was that 'handshake' contracts are something you'd expect of sole traders and amateurs, not of any business any bigger than that.

Sully

The Corinthian wrote: »

You don't need to be a big business to act professionally. My point was that 'handshake' contracts are something you'd expect of sole traders and amateurs, not of any business any bigger than that.

As I said, I thought these things outlined clearly in an email (or even a Word Document) was okay. This is the first I heard about it not standing up in a court, so I am looking into the matter to address it. A lot of our clients who go for smaller work (like logo design) do not live near me to meet up and sign a contract - and by sending it via An Post to get them to sign etc. takes up a fair bit of time and most of them will get the work done closer to home or from some freelancer because its easier.

Once again, thank you for your feedback.