Athiesm & Spirituality

Whispered

Hi, I would like to ask that this thread does not become an excuse for insulting people or a "i'm right, you're wrong" thread. But I would like to know what peoples opinions are on spirituality (I am not talking about god or religion here). My own beliefs are pretty complicated as I dont believe in god (not as a man in the sky anyway) and agree with a lot of what is said on this forum, but I also have some very strong spiritual beliefs.

I think that a lot of what is now described as "paranormal" is simply some function of nature that we dont yet understand and that eventually a lot of things will be explained. "yes you did see a "ghost" in that you saw uncle albert sitting in his chair 2 years after he died but what actually caused it was.................(insert explaination here)"

Too many people, in my opinion, experience things for them to all be fobbed off as mad or coincidental, so I would be interested in opinions please.

believe in some of it, don't expect to ever prove it or be able to support it in a discussion

stakey

The human mind is the one of the most powerful tricksters... i think you'll probably quicker find answers to paranormal events there than within the natural world.

Whispered

stakey wrote: »

The human mind is the one of the most powerful tricksters... i think you'll probably quicker find answers to paranormal events there than within the natural world.

Yes true, but then the human mind is natural so........................

stakey

Lock a person in a dark room for 24-48 hours and they will see oyster shells (See: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7199769.stm) or whatever there brain conjures up for them. This doesn't necessarily mean that the oyster shells existed.

These are our brains coping mechanisms, more than likely ghosts and other paranormal activity are something similar.

stakey

stakey wrote: »

Lock a person in a dark room for 24-48 hours and they will see oyster shells (See: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7199769.stm) or whatever there brain conjures up for them. This doesn't necessarily mean that the oyster shells existed.

thats pretty cool
would be interesting to try

Whispered

Well I'm not saying that ghosts actually exist, just that people have seen them so it could very well be a trick of the mind (although I think that is a bit simplistic). I'm not just talking about ghosts though, I'm talking bout precognition, healing, clairvoynce etc. What are your thoughts on these. (again please no post just saying "crap" or similar )

18AD

I think we have a very limited knowledge about everything. I have to wonder what will be known in say 500 years when today's 'cutting edge' will be laughably primitive.

I'd even say that knowing may not be the most important thing in the future.

Good luck to the future.
AD.

fatmammycat

I don't believe in God, I also don't believe in Reiki-spit spit- psychics, ghosts, angels, Mediums, Dowsers, Animal telepaths ( I mean come bloody on, Rover's telling me he had a headache last thursday, that's why he dug up your garden) chi, baby whisperers (how convenient, like animals another one that can't answer back or dispute what is being said) fortune tellers, Tarot readers, the 'afterlife', voodoo, Mormons, people who claim to hear the mother of god-and charge accordingly for the same message year in year out- people who see Jesus in toast, resurrections, saints, laying of hands, faith healers, devils, goblins, the tooth fairy, Santa, hobbits, moving statues, warlocks, witches, magicians. or indeed any other mumbo jumbo, chicanery or any other mystical tripe.
That other people do is their business however. As long as they don't mind my laughing at them in private and tuning them out in public-except on my own blog, where it is open hunting season.

Pompey Magnus

Spirituality certainly can be compatible with atheism, but I wouldn't consider myself spiritual to be honest. That said it depends on how you define spirituality, which is almost impossible as it means very different things to different people. If you mean spiritual as in striving towards self-realization and an interest and quest towards understanding the human condition then I suppose lots of atheists, including myself, are spiritual.

I have never felt the need to label myself as spiritual though and I have never thought of myself as such. It is an interesting topic though as spirituality is such an important part of so many people's lives, perhaps secular spirituality should be discussed more and perhaps even promoted by atheists. I'm sure plenty of people consider atheism as being very cold and depressing and lacking in the more profound nature of human existance which certainly isn't the case.

fatmammycat

I always think not believing in mystical stuff makes a body appreciate the wonder and coolness of the world all the more. I love life and enjoy being alive to the max, I don't need a crutch to be happy.

Whispered

18AD wrote: »

I'd even say that knowing may not be the most important thing in the future.
.

Oh sounds interesting - what do you mean?

Depeche, I was one of those people until I started coming here!! I saw athiesm as just a blank rejection of everything. But I'm at a cross roads at the moment in that I do believe in certain things, which seem to go against athiesm. I know reiki works - I dont know how, but I know it does. If it's a placebo effect (as I'm sure I will be told it is) then it is an effect which should be looked into more. I do believe that some benfit can be taken from tarot - even if it is just inspiration, I believe ghosts exist - I dont know if they are dead people back to haunt us, but I also know it cant always be trick of the mind. See what I mean, I do think all of these thing exist, I just think they are not as paranormal as people make out.

Dades

Spirituality for me generally involves some form of paranormal belief or practice. So I can't really embrace the idea of being 'spiritual' with a clear conscience.

18AD wrote:

I think we have a very limited knowledge about everything. I have to wonder what will be known in say 500 years when today's 'cutting edge' will be laughably primitive.

Absolutely!

One idea of the "paranormal" I am open to is ESP. That said, if it we were ever to shed light on it, it probably wouldn't be paranormal for long.

Zamboni

helena.ryan wrote: »

I know reiki works - I dont know how, but I know it does.

I know statements like this annoy me - I don't know how, but I know they do.

No offense Helena but that is simply not good enough.

What exactly do you mean by spirituality?
Do you mean 'at one with the world' or in communication with 'spirits'.
There are various meaning of 'spirituality' which I think are as incompatible with atheism or rationalism as religion is.

Whispered

Dades wrote: »

Spirituality for me generally involves some form of paranormal belief or practice. So I can't really embrace the idea of being 'spiritual' with a clear conscience.

Absolutely!

One idea of the "paranormal" I am open to is ESP. That said, if it we were ever to shed light on it, it probably wouldn't be paranormal for long.

Thats my point, if it became explainable then people who dont believe in the "paranormal" would have a field day saying "oh we told you it wasn't paranormal"

Can I ask Dades, why are you open to ESP?

MrB

Good timing on this tread because, I saw a Ghost last night! seriously.

Was sitting on my couch in my 3rd floor apartment when a white "apparition" floated past the window. I only caught a brief glance, but it definitely was not a bird, it moved all wrong and was a completely different shape! What's more I have heard that the bus depot next door to the apartment building is supposed to be haunted!! what more proof to you need, it had to be a ghost!! :eek:

Of course being an Atheist and sceptic, I thought it prudent to double check my initial assessment and got off my and went out on to the balcony for a better look, where I again saw my "Ghost", except it wasn't a Ghost, it was a Tesco's shopping bag.

A guess what this shows is that the human brain is a master at interpreting incomplete sensory data into realistic experiences, even if those experiences are completely false and that the plastic bag charge is not working

18AD

helena.ryan wrote: »

Oh sounds interesting - what do you mean?

For instance, evolution has gotten us this far. This is a stage of knowing things, a time for human brains, to think and wonder etc...
Before this there was animal instinct, acting for survival, snap decisions etc...
I'm assuming this trend won't stop and there will be a next level of thinking, if you could even call it that.

Edit: http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/PICKOVER/pc/monstrum.html
We're evolving into aliens. Aliens are our future selves!

Or if evolution has kind of taken a back seat with the human race, I'm sure technology will have some very interesting things to offer in the future. It's already pretty amazing thus far.
http://www.gametrailers.com/player/usermovies/156202.html
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080117125636.htm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080111123319.htm

Edit: Forgot to add this(bit more far out :P):
http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/126649/can_this_black_box_see_into_the_future/
http://noosphere.princeton.edu/

I'm optimystic.
AD.

Whispered

Zamboni wrote: »

I know statements like this annoy me - I don't know how, but I know they do.

No offense Helena but that is simply not good enough.

What exactly do you mean by spirituality?
Do you mean 'at one with the world' or in communication with 'spirits'.
There are various meaning of 'spirituality' which I think are as incompatible with atheism or rationalism as religion is.

No offence taken Zamboni, did you read the bit where I said it could be a placebo, or did you just ignore that bit? I personally dont believe it is a placebo, but I respect the fact that some people will say it is. I cant however accept when people say it's all nonsense (esp peopl who have nevr experienced it) as I'v seen it work. By spirituality I mean "at one with the world" as you put it but as I said I think a lot of paranormal occurances are just natural occurances which we dont understand yet.

Whispered

MrB wrote: »

Good timing on this tread because, I saw a Ghost last night! seriously.

Was sitting on my couch in my 3rd floor apartment when a white "apparition" floated past the window. I only caught a brief glance, but it definitely was not a bird, it moved all wrong and was a completely different shape! What's more I have heard that the bus depot next door to the apartment building is supposed to be haunted!! what more proof to you need, it had to be a ghost!! :eek:

Of course being an Atheist and sceptic, I thought it prudent to double check my initial assessment and got off my and went out on to the balcony for a better look, where I again saw my "Ghost", except it wasn't a Ghost, it was a Tesco's shopping bag.

A guess what this shows is that the human brain is a master at interpreting incomplete sensory data into realistic experiences, even if those experiences are completely false and that the plastic bag charge is not working

LOL yes, I'm sure we can use shopping bags or similar to explain away everything :rolleyes:

fatmammycat

Too bad Helen, you're just going to have to accept people who think it's nonsense. Same way as we have to put up with people who 'know' it works.

fatmammycat

Also, don't assume people like me who openly mock it, have not had personal experience of it.

Whispered

fatmammycat, is there a problem with one of my answers? You dont have to put up with me, you can always post in another thread? I dont feel like I'm "accepting things". I asked a question, so far most people have had something intelligent or amusing to contribute.

fatmammycat

Yes, you have posted in an atheist thread, of which I am one.
And my answer was in direct response to this "I cant however accept when people say it's all nonsense (esp peopl who have nevr experienced it) as I'v seen it work."
There's nothing 'amusing' about reiki, so I find I have nothing amusing to add.

pH

Personally I really don't understand the term spirituality. It seems to be derived from the fact that, inside us all, is something more than matter and mind, a spirit so to speak.

That would make spirituality all about addressing an inner spirit, growing it, enhancing it, healing it etc.

Since no one has ever produced anything even remotely like evidence that they exist or a coherent theory about how they get there and what they need, I tend to reject the notion of a spirit and hence spirituality.

This also gets somewhat confusing as we use the word spirit in a number of senses - I'd happily accept the "human spirit" or the "spirit of adventure" for instance.

The reason that 'reikki' works is almost definitely the same why acupuncture, faith healing, voodoo and homoeopathy all work : the fact that most feelings of pain, unhappiness, tiredness and discomfort are naturally cyclical and the placebo effect.

Whispered

Mammycat My understanding of an athiest is someone who does not believe in God. Hve I got this wrong? Belief in spirituality is not linked with a belief in god.

I did not start this thread for a row, if you have to post in it please dont be so confrontational. If you are getting so annoyed over my question that you cant do that then I will ask you with respect to please stop hijacking my thread. I wanted athiests opinion on spiritulity, intelligent, thought out opinions, not "you are not an athiest therefore you cant post here" type responces.

Mods, is there a problem with me posting this in athiests forum.

Ciaran500

helena.ryan wrote: »

Well I'm not saying that ghosts actually exist, just that people have seen them so it could very well be a trick of the mind (although I think that is a bit simplistic). I'm not just talking about ghosts though, I'm talking bout precognition, healing, clairvoynce etc. What are your thoughts on these. (again please no post just saying "crap" or similar )

Personally I don't believe any of them. They only seem to work when people people believe in them and any sort of testing in controlled conditions people can't replicate the results. With something like healing a believer will assume any positive effects they feel are from the healing while just sitting down and relaxing could give the same effect.

If this was just something we couldn't understand surely people should still be able to do it consistently and produce actual results. We don't need to understand it to show its there.

Whispered

Ciaran500 wrote: »

With something like healing a believer will assume any positive effects they feel are from the healing while just sitting down and relaxing could give the same effect.

- completly agree for some issues. I think the fact that someone who has a problem is even taking steps towards solving it (no matter how ridic you think the step is) often has a positive effect.

fatmammycat

Your passive aggressive tone won't wash. Clearly you have a problem with reading comprehension. I'm not annoyed by your original question, not have I said you can't post here, mentioning this is an atheist forum explains why I was here. Neither was I confrontational. I have already stated that my answer was in relation to a direct quote from you. If this makes your knees tremble under the yoke of oppression I'm so terribly sorry.
Perhaps you can perform reiki on yourself and heal your wounded sensibilities. After all you 'know' it works.
(now that was confrontational)

Enjoy the rest of your thread.

Whispered

fatmammycat wrote: »

Enjoy the rest of your thread.

Can we leave it at that then please?

robindch

helena.ryan wrote: »

Too many people, in my opinion, experience things for them to all be fobbed off as mad or coincidental, so I would be interested in opinions please.

Personally, I believe that the human brain is a lot better at building "real" experiences out of incomplete or contradictory senses than people in general think. That means that people have a predisposition to seeing or hearing (or whatever) something peculiar, and concluding conclude that what they thought they saw or heard was what actually did happen. Many people have a tendency also to believe that their senses are better than they actually are and therefore tend to put more faith into the reality of their experiences than they really should.

That's not to say that weird and inexplicable things don't happen -- they certainly do -- but simply that people shouldn't automatically assume that what they think happened, was what actually did happen.

Or to paraphrase Hume, you should ask yourself whether it's more likely that the laws of physics that we see working normally every day have been turned off for a short while, or that you made a mistake.

Whispered

robindch wrote: »

Or to paraphrase Hume, you should ask yourself whether it's more likely that the laws of physics that we see working normally every day have been turned off for a short while, or that you made a mistake.

LOL very good! Never heard that one before. I however never make mistakes

Do you think that there might be more to the law of physics than we currently know?