Athiesm & Spirituality

Calibos

The amount of times I have seen dark lurking figures at the side of the road just vanish into thin air as I got closer. I can't accept that it was just my pre-frontal cortex almagamating shapes and shadows in the dim light and interpretting them as the shape of a person/spirit only to re-interpret them shortly after when I got closer and more visual que's were available to my brain and them interpreting them as a bush and part of a wall. No definately not. It was a spirit that suddenly vanished I tell thee!!

Sorry for being facietious(sp?)

Look, you say that there has to be something in it because there are too many reports and sightings for them all to be co-incidence. Put it this. Do you know the picture that looks like a Vase and then all of a sudden looks like two faces and then just as suddenly looks like a vase again. Thats the brain interpreting and reinterpreting confusing visual ques about shape. Every single person on the planet looking at that picture will experience the same thing. ie. one second its a vase, the next its two faces etc. So don't you see that every person on the planet will see strange shadowy figures appear and disappear now and again. Most people realise what has happened when the shadowy figure disappears, "Ah jaysus, haha, sure it was only a bush, LOL".

I certain percentage of people for whatever reason refuse to beleive it was an optical illusion, trick of the brain. Just to pull a figure out of the air. Say 1%. Now remember everyone sees the Vase optical illusion. So 5 billion people will at one time or another will have seen a 'spirit' appear and vanish. 1% will actually believe they saw a spirit. 1% of 5 billion is 50 million people that are absolutely convinced that they saw a ghost/spirit. Is it any wonder there are so many ghost stories. And I was being very conservative with that figure of 1%!!

Here's another one. I was chatting to a female friend about reiki and 'she just knew' there was something in it because when the reiki practitioner came into the room she felt the aura. I asked her to explain this sensation and she described it as a tingling sensation and the goosebumps. A light bulb went on in my brain. You see I work in a shop and every few weeks this old window cleaner comes to clean the shop window. The minute I see him I feel waves of tingling and goosebumps. Its not an unpleasent sensation. Now I am not gay and I don't have a predilection for older gents. What gives? Is he practicing reiki on me without my knowledge from a distance. Does he have a powerful aura and doesn't know it and should really be using his powers for alternative medicine instead of cleaning windows??

Or would a more rational explanation be that I am quite hypersensitive to the likes of 'Scraping the blackboard' but merely sensitive to sqeeks and squeels etc. Could it be that the first day I witnessed him cleaning the windows that the sqeeks and squeels of the rubber window cleaners tool got my 'spider sense's' tingling and everytime I saw this guy thereafter, my brain would anticipate the squeeking and squeeling to come and jump the gun as it were and I would start getting the tingley goosebump feeling before the guy even started on the windows. Could my female friend anticipate the soothing tones and feather touches of the reiki healer and the relaxation to come and thats why she 'felt the aura'. Isn't it more likely that the reiki healer does not have the jedi healing powers of 'the force' when she waves her hands over your body but that you anticipate the relaxation, actually relax and it is the relaxation that makes you feel a bit better. Isn't it amazing that all these alternative therapies just seem to work on a general feeling of unwellness or a general feeling of pain, but never on specific aiulments or injuries. "By holding my hands over your sliced open shin I will concentrate 'the force' and it will heal in 2 days instead of 10" Funny how the best you can hope for is that for a few hours after the session, your shin just doesn't hurt quite so much, kinda, yeah well, I am pretty sure....that maybe....well ye...I do feel....a bit better....sort of....

Zamboni

helena.ryan wrote: »

I cant however accept when people say it's all nonsense (esp peopl who have nevr experienced it) as I'v seen it work.

Again no offence but I would rather see a demonstratable experiment that can be tested over with the same results rather than your observation.

helena.ryan wrote: »

By spirituality I mean "at one with the world" as you put it but as I said I think a lot of paranormal occurances are just natural occurances which we dont understand yet.

Of course there are many things science doesn't understand yet, but that does not mean that as an alternative that we should accept personal visions/sightings/experiences as proof.

The general rule of thumb for non-rationalists appears to be...
I don't know the answer - God did it.
I don't know the answer - It was a ghost.
I don't know the answer - My psychic told me.
Etcetera, etcetera.

entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem

stakey

Helena, an interesting documentary to watch for an insight into things like clairvoynce, healing and precognition is a documentary that Derren Brown did for Channel 4, the show was entitled 'Messiah' and followed Brown around the US as he attempted to convice other practitioners of his skills. Amongst these skills were the ability to contact the dead, psychic powers and healing to name but a few. In all of the cases the current practitioners believed him to be the real deal.

Brown argued that people simply heard what they wanted to hear, nothing more. This is known as confirmation bias; whereby one's perception of what they see or hear avoids information which contradict what they wish to believe in.

Really interesting part: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1898019884024707180

By the way, Brown is a paranormal skeptic, so he certainly doesn't possess these 'abilities'.

I'm of the opinion that things like clairvoyance, healing and precognition are easily dismissed (and have been by the likes of Brown) and have no grounding in reality.

I don't believe spirituality as it is portrayed in our modern society is compatible with my atheism, for me spirituality would be an acceptance that we are beyond the physical, that there is something supernatural to our existance. As we have developed and evolved and have begun really researching the world around us the old arguments of religion on the age of the universe, our beginnings etc have fallen to the side. In it's place some have turned to more out there 'spiritual' solutions like reiki, tarot cards, irish psychics live, healers, etc etc...

Until some sort of hard evidence in independant managed test environments shows me otherwise i'll find all of this to be completely and utterly incompatible with my atheism.

pH

helena.ryan wrote: »

Do you think that there might be more to the law of physics than we currently know?

There undoubtedly might me more to the laws of physics than we currently know - the chances that any of this 'more' will shed any light on or validate ESP, telekinesis, faith healing, quantum crystallography, fairies, vampires or energy auras is vanishingly small.

It's not that there are a whole lot of things out there that definitely exist but we can't explain. If this was the case then this "more to physics than we know" approach might be relevant. All these claims and effects vanish when anyone approached them systematically.

lookinforpicnic

robindch wrote: »

Or to paraphrase Hume, you should ask yourself whether it's more likely that the laws of physics that we see working normally every day have been turned off for a short while, or that you made a mistake.

Exactly, your bascially (helena) choosing to accept a personal hunch as more likely than all the hard won knowledge of physics, biology, evolution (i.e. evolution of sense organs.. ESP is nonsense) and all the nobel prices that went with it. If real paranormal events occur we basically have to re-invent all this hard won knowledge.

Dades

helena.ryan wrote: »

Mods, is there a problem with me posting this in athiests forum.

None whatsoever. Suffice to say fatmammycat has posted their opinion, and we all know where we stand.

helena.ryan wrote: »

Can I ask Dades, why are you open to ESP?

You can, although I don't really have an answer. Maybe it's because I don't see the possibility of ESP having to exist in the paranormal realm, but instead it might be an untapped function of our big ol' brains. Or maybe I watch too much Star Trek.

Whispered

Dades wrote: »

You can, although I don't really have an answer. Maybe it's because I don't see the possibility of ESP having to exist in the paranormal realm, but instead it might be an untapped function of our big ol' brains. Or maybe I watch too much Star Trek.

THats what I mean about other things too, surely there are some things, like ESP which at them moment are "paranormal" but are not necessarily unexplainable and another untapped function of our brains. This is what I believe healing is. The body is amazing and has amazing abilities to heal itself. Could a healer not just be a facilitator, prompting the body to heal itself? Through the belief of the patient?

Zamboni, you dont have to keep saying no offence! I know you dont mean any. The issues you raised are completly legitimate and I too would like to see a demonstratable experiment. I would not expect anyone to take my word for anything, not even my closest friends, because I am a believer and so am biased. I think for anyone to accept something without proof is very niave.

Zamboni

helena.ryan wrote: »

...because I am a believer and so am biased.

I think for anyone to accept something without proof is very niave.

Do you need any more rope?:D

pH

helena.ryan wrote: »

THats what I mean about other things too, surely there are some things, like ESP which at them moment are "paranormal" but are not necessarily unexplainable and another untapped function of our brains. This is what I believe healing is. The body is amazing and has amazing abilities to heal itself. Could a healer not just be a facilitator, prompting the body to heal itself? Through the belief of the patient?

So why do we need hospitals and doctors? Why don't people just go lie down and heal themselves? Unless if by 'amazing' you actually mean 'pretty poor'

Life expectancy for a human for most of our history using our body's "amazing abilities to heal itself" - 20 to 30 years, current life expectancy in the 1st world : 67 years.

I'm serious, what evidence do you see for these amazing abilities?

stakey

helena.ryan wrote: »

THats what I mean about other things too, surely there are some things, like ESP which at them moment are "paranormal" but are not necessarily unexplainable and another untapped function of our brains.

We still haven't agreed if ESP exists, there is tangible evidence beyond a few eccentrics claiming they have this capability, so i wouldn't even class it as 'paranormal', it's still in the realm of not even existing. Show me tangible independant evidence of ESP and i'll change my opinion.

robindch

helena.ryan wrote: »

Do you think that there might be more to the law of physics than we currently know?

Yes, of course! Why would the world's physicists be opening the upcoming LHC -- the world's biggest and most expensive-ever physics lab -- if there were no stones left to look under?

helena.ryan wrote:

The issues you raised are completly legitimate and I too would like to see a demonstratable experiment.

People have been checking out all kinds of paranormal activity for well over a hundred years and nobody's found so much as one reliable report of a paranormal flea-bite. Believing that reality is pointed in some direction doesn't mean that it actually is, no matter how cool it would be if it were.

Susan Blackmore researched paranormal activities for more than thirty years and threw in the towel a few years back. Her short 'good-bye' is worth a read:

http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/journalism/NS2000.html

Dades

helena.ryan wrote: »

This is what I believe healing is. The body is amazing and has amazing abilities to heal itself. Could a healer not just be a facilitator, prompting the body to heal itself? Through the belief of the patient?

That's all well and good to have as a belief, as long as that belief is never exercised at the expense of proper medical advice. At least in the case of serious illness.

I heard about this survey a while back, and was somewhat taken aback. I'm all for mind over matter, so to have it suggested in black and white that maintaining a positive attitude is of no help to a cancer sufferer was a bit, well, stark.

18AD

http://www.life-enthusiast.com/twilight/research_emoto.htm

Interesting enough. No idea how it works though
Let the debunking begin...

All the best.
AD.

Zombrex

robindch wrote: »

Believing that reality is pointed in some direction doesn't mean that it actually is, no matter how cool it would be if it were.

Nail on the head to be honest.

The important point isn't that there are unexplored and unknown areas of the natural world still left to be discovered. The point is that just because there are doesn't mean that they will lead to conclusions that people desire to be true, such as faith healing, ghosts, after life etc etc.

It is the great paradox of belief in the "paranormal" that people who believe in it claim that it is so unknown that we cannot say it isn't happening, yet claim to known enough that they can make conclusions as to what it is. They can't have it both ways. If the "paranormal" is unknown area of nature they know less about what is actually happening than the person saying it isn't a ghost, or energy healing or anything else.

These conclusions are nothing more than wishful thinking. They have no bearing at all on what may or may not actually be happening.

If I do not posses an understanding of the natural world to say that the strange light isn't a ghost then the paranormal believer doesn't posses enough understanding of the natural world to say it could be in the first place.

They just want it to be that pre-determined conclusion for reasons other than simply discovering what it actually is.

Whispered

Dades wrote: »

That's all well and good to have as a belief, as long as that belief is never exercised at the expense of proper medical advice. At least in the case of serious illness.

completly agree, it should never ever be used to replace medicine - it's complementary to medicine.

robindch

helena.ryan wrote: »

completly agree, it should never ever be used to replace medicine - it's complementary to medicine.

You mean that it never works unless you take medicine too? Reminds me of Stone Soup

Whispered

Now in fairness how can I answer that?? If I say yes thats right it only works with medicine then you'll say, no the medicine worked............ and I would never say to use healing without medicine, as I said it's complimentary and any responsible healer will tell you to go to a doctor first and foremost. Would it be more believeable for you if I said "dont ever go to a doctor - I can heal all of your illnesses, you dont need a doctor at all"

I didn't say it never works without medicine, I said it should never be used without med, obviously I'm talking about serious illnesses here and not your common cold or headaches etc.

Zombrex

helena.ryan wrote: »

I didn't say it never works without medicine, I said it should never be used without med, obviously I'm talking about serious illnesses here and not your common cold or headaches etc.

Yes, but the point is that if it actually worked you wouldn't need medicine at all.

Calibos

Just reminds me why I drop into this and the skeptics forum and the likes of Jref a lot less these days.

Oh...good god....the frustration!!

You guys are like saints with the patience you have.

I must be getting cranky in my old age. Becoming a grumpy old man etc I just don't have the patience anymore to even try and educate people anymore. Whats the point. You're lucky to convince 1 in a 100. 1 in a 100 is just not worth the frustration anymore.

18AD

Wicknight wrote: »

Yes, but the point is that if it actually worked you wouldn't need medicine at all.

Because when medicine started to be used and tested it worked flawlessly...:rolleyes:

Good luck.
AD.

Zombrex

18AD wrote: »

Because when medicine started to be used and tested it worked flawlessly...:rolleyes:

Good luck.
AD.

Well that is the whole point. This stuff doesn't work. They know it doesn't work, which is why they tell you to continue with proper medicine.