Cruelty to horses?

LuckyStar

I am just wondering what you all think of horses being put in danger, injured or even killed in the pursuit of our "sports". Racehorses are put down from breaking their legs in races, hunting horses may fall and hurt themselves, showjumpers must feel the knock in their feet when they hit a pole, when often the race/hunt/jump was not strictly neccessary as it was for sport.

What do you think of this? Have you ever calmly tried to talk about the issue to a horse owner in a mature manner and just been given a tirade of abuse? One called me a retard, bitch, and used various 4 letter words.

togster

Yeah good thread lucky star. I would have to say that yes i have seen some horses injured. Most were competition horses. These horses are like top athletes who thrive on competition. However with proper care and fitness procedures the risks are limited. Hope this answers your question?

Bendihorse

Luckystar, If you dont like horse riding then why are you in an equestrian forum? Its pointless trying to explain something to people like you because you already have your mind made up based on little knowlege or fact. I suspect this will be locked and deleted shortly.

fits

No actually I think it is an interesting topic and I'm going to leave it here for discussion. There are definitely ways in which horses are open to abuse and it does go on... in all equestrian disciplines.

Any abusive posts from anyone (or pms for that matter) and I will ban your ass sooner than you can say 'but I...'

LuckyStar

Bendihorse wrote: »

Luckystar, If you dont like horse riding then why are you in an equestrian forum? Its pointless trying to explain something to people like you because you already have your mind made up based on little knowlege or fact. I suspect this will be locked and deleted shortly.

I do like horseriding and have been doing so for 10 years. I have two horses of my own and have kept them all my life so I do have quite a bit of knowledge about them. As for "people like me" I cannot recall ever meeting you so am not sure how you know me.

As for the thread being deleted, doesn't bother me, it would reflect more on the forum than anything else if we cannot discuss horse-related matters. Which I thought this forum was for?

togster

LuckyStar wrote: »

As for the thread being deleted, doesn't bother me, it would reflect more on the forum than anything else if we cannot discuss horse-related matters. Which I thought this forum was for?

OK so what is it you want to know? Is it people taking risks with horses?
Because the extent of the risk is subjective. You say you ride horses that in itself a risk. You could be walking down the rode and a horse could stumble and smash his knees. Do you see my point?

Of course some areas of riding are more risky than others. I have seen a horse break its neck cross country and i have also seen a horse die from collic. Both man made.

The forum is open to all aspects of equestrian life; good, bad and ugly.

PROVIDED that they are discussed in a helpful and respectfull manner, and that they do not breech the charter.

Carry on...

Bendihorse

I dont think that anyone wants to see their horse get injured, much like no one likes to see a human injured, but humans and horses put themselves at risk all the time in the name of enjoyment.
No body that has seen a horse compete at a high level could say that it wasn't enjoying itself, if it wasn't then it wouldn't try hard enough to get to the top level in competition. Even at lower level, horses are a lot stronger than humans, they have various ways of showing us when they are not happy. 99% of people can recognise when there is something wrong/that the horse is not happy and do something about it, sadly there are cases where people try to use brute force and cruelty to solve these matters. Those people should not be allowed to have any animals, horse, cow, dog or hamster.

LuckyStar

Regarding the topic, there is a difference between walking a horse around a field and jumping him over metal gates he may not be able to clear.

Togster, thank you for replying without swearing at me this time. I detailed what I wanted to know in my first post- do you believe it is cruel to risk an animal's health or even life for the sake of sport?

I would also like to know if you think animal welfare is your business? For example if you saw or heard of an animal being mistreated do you feel it is your duty to stick up for the animal? I certainly do, as animals cannot speak for themselves. Black Beauty was written for this sole reason and the author never wrote another book, she made her point. If you were to stand back and say nothing would you feel this could be considered condoning cruelty?

fits

please keep on topic and leave the moderating to the moderators. I've no interest in hearing about yesterdays post from anyone.

Bendihorse

In relation to that comment you made, it was a miracle that both horse and person weren't killed. Stop trying to defend it. Your opinion on hunting is your own and im not arguing that with you, throwing out a flippant comment like you did where a persons life could have been lost was in very poor taste.

I would never stand by and see an animal poorly treated or neglected. I felt compelled to call the ISPCA on on occasion where a person who should know much better had let some ponies in his care die over a harsh winter due to not having enough regard for them as they were not valuable enough, yet he had a yard full of well fed gleaming and valuable sport horses that were very well looked after. The good ones were actually rode out in the field where the ponies were and past their carcasses as if they weren't there.

I am also in the progress of fostering a horse from the ISPCA, i chose to do this as i have spare land and want to give them room to take on another mistreated horse in its place.

togster

LuckyStar wrote: »

Regarding the topic, there is a difference between walking a horse around a field and jumping him over metal gates he may not be able to clear.

Really how so? I wouldn't jump a gate with a horse if i didn't think he could! That comes from years of experience, but sometimes accidents happen!

LuckyStar wrote: »

Togster, thank you for replying without swearing at me this time. I detailed what I wanted to know in my first post- do you believe it is cruel to risk an animal's health or even life for the sake of sport?

Yeah no bother. Do i believe it is cruel? No i don't. I thought i made that clear already. But here it is again!!:)

LuckyStar wrote: »

I would also like to know if you think animal welfare is your business? For example if you saw or heard of an animal being mistreated do you feel it is your duty to stick up for the animal? I certainly do, as animals cannot speak for themselves. Black Beauty was written for this sole reason and the author never wrote another book, she made her point. If you were to stand back and say nothing would you feel this could be considered condoning cruelty?

Animal welfare? Yes i do, but i make sure i know the facts before criticising something i know nothing about.

Comprendez?

fits

Right... one final little reminder.

If I get any inkling that this thread is developing into anything other than a general discussion on horse welfare it is gone. I do not want any particular instances discussed (unless there has already been a conviction).
I also do not want this to descend into another argument on foxhunting... been there done that.

Right - next personal attack gets a break for a week

Thread will be locked if you don't stop this ****.

Bendihorse

LuckyStar wrote: »

Regarding the topic, there is a difference between walking a horse around a field and jumping him over metal gates he may not be able to clear.

Just in reply to that, i dont think any sane person would face their horse at an obstacle they weren't sure he had the capability to jump, that would be more or less suicidal to both horse and rider.

Horses - particularly hunting horses, have a good handle on what they can and cant do themselves, thats why plenty refuse obstacles. Its interesting to see a young unsure horse refuse an obstable a few times, but when he sees that other horses can and have jumped it, he will try himself. They get to know their limits like humans do, they have great self preservation instincts.

LuckyStar

togster wrote: »

Really how so? I wouldn't jump a gate with a horse if i didn't think he could! That comes from years of experience, but sometimes accidents happen!



Yeah no bother. Do i believe it is cruel? No i don't. I thought i made that clear already. But here it is again!!:)



Animal welfare? Yes i do, but i make sure i know the facts before criticising something i know nothing about.

Comprendez?

Maybe I wrong but I am getting a sniff of deliberate patronisation here, as I certainly am not critiscising something I know about. I have had horses since I was a child.

Bendihorse wrote: »

Just in reply to that, i dont think any sane person would face their horse at an obstacle they weren't sure he had the capability to jump, that would be more or less suicidal to both horse and rider.

That is fair enough. But horses like every animal and humans, have their off-days. Every horse has days where he is more sluggish than usual. Take mares in heat, mine is never herself at that time, she seems to be very uncomfortable those days so she has a little holiday. And horses often only clear fences/jumps by a matter of inches. Unfortunately the margin for error is often very slim, and thus, even though the horse may have jumped that height or that fence before, does not mean he is guaranteed to be able to do it again. The same way as we may have had a horse buck on us many times before and stayed on, and then when we least expect it, we're on the ground

togster

LuckyStar wrote: »

. And horses often only clear fences/jumps by a matter of inches. Unfortunately the margin for error is often very slim, and thus, even though the horse may have jumped that height or that fence before, does not mean he is guaranteed to be able to do it again. The same way as we may have had a horse buck on us many times before and stayed on, and then when we least expect it, we're on the ground

Im confused as to whats the point of this thread? Are you saying that we shouldn't jump horses? Or only when its a certain heigth?
Surely only the rider knows what his/her horse can jump? That is what riding is about afterall. Learning to know your horse and its abilities and helping to develop their potential.

Bendihorse

Horses definatly have their off days, but riders - especially top level riders are super sensitive to their horses moods, they would never risk injuring a valuable horse just for the sake of one day out or one round.

Take one of the big events that was held in the UK recently, cant remember which one, but loads of riders actually pulled out of the event because they felt the ground was too hard for their horses and weren't prepared to risk injury.

You'll often see riders pull their horses up mid round because they dont feel 100% right. This si certainly the case with Showjumpers. Horses are transported to shows and stabled at enormous expence yet may never leave their stall except to get 'walked out' as they are a bit off colour.

Sometimes people make errors of judgement and sometimes accidents happen, but i dont think highly strung competition horses would be any better off in the wild left to their own devices than they are taking a moderate risk by competing once or twice weekly.

As for race horses, sadly this is where most accidents happen. But i think a way to look at it is that if a horse can at all get up and continue - rider or not, he will do that so that means theres instinct there to win, its not just running because the rider on its back is forcing it to.

LuckyStar

togster wrote: »

Im confused as to whats the point of this thread?

The point of this thread is

original post, by Luckystar wrote:

I am just wondering what you all think of horses being put in danger, injured or even killed in the pursuit of our "sports".

I am not interested in repeating the answer to your question over and over, if you are not interested in reading what I wrote in the first place, you are not obliged to answer me. I was more than clear about what the thread was about in that original post. Thanks.

togster

LuckyStar wrote: »

The point of this thread is



I am not interested in repeating the answer to your question over and over, if you are not interested in reading what I wrote in the first place, you are not obliged to answer me. I was more than clear about what the thread was about in that original post. Thanks.

I think you had an alternative motive to starting the thread to be honest. But thats neither here nor there. I have answered your question or?
Yes i do think it is acceptable that horses get injured in the pursuit of sport.
Whats not acceptable is injuring a horse on purpose or not taking due care.
My 2 cents.

LuckyStar

Bendihorse wrote: »

As for race horses, sadly this is where most accidents happen. But i think a way to look at it is that if a horse can at all get up and continue - rider or not, he will do that so that means theres instinct there to win, its not just running because the rider on its back is forcing it to.

Indeed, it is certainly heartening to see a rider-less horse galloping with the rest of them, blissfully unaware that even if he wins, it won't be counted because he had no rider

But I have often looked at fantastic horses that lost their lives because of injuries sustained on the racetrack and thought- it's an awful pity. All the training and care to keep them in that condition and their lives are over in a split second.

Bendihorse

Thats very true, beautiful creatures that thorougbreds are, but sadly that partly contributes to their high injury rate - long lean limbs and fine bones are sadly very susceptible to breaking and dont heal well at all.

Im not a fan of racing to be honest, i find its more about the betting that the horses. I love watching documentaries about race horses at home, in the stable yard or in training, when the programme is all about how they are, how they get them to peak fitness and all the work everyone from groom to trainer to the horse has to put in to getting to the races.
But on the day the betting takes over and the commentary on the tv is more about odds than the animals in the race and how and why they are so great at what they do. :rolleyes:

To echo Togster and in response to your initial question,

I dont think using horses in the name of sport is 'cruel', as long as EVERY precaution is taken to ensure that that both horse and rider get home as safe as possible and no chances are taken. Accidents happen to horses in the wild too, taking them out of sport and leaving them to the wilds would be counter productive. In the wild, broken down and injured horses often have to struggle on and endure a long and painful death as they have no one to make the decision to end it for them.

Not everyone 'loves' or has as deep a connection with horses/animals, but i think it would take a particularly cold calous person to actively put a horse into a situation that it wasn't able for and i dont think it happens much in the sporting world where animals are too valuable to be treated poorly. Cruelty is much more evident with horses that are not cared for and are just left in a field unwanted and unchecked.

fits

Luckystar is now taking a holiday after ignoring repeated warnings. Anyone doing same will receive similar treatment.

togster

i love showjumping

togster

Sorry just back from party with some horsey folk.

Love ye all.

doctor evil

The risk is relative, a horse can damage itself out in a field as much as when it is ridden.

Bubonicus banned for one week.

AckwelFoley

There are risks in all sports.

Horses enjoy the activity and excercise and there is equal risk to the human as there is to the horse.

I generally find that ppl that are opposed to foxhunting and other horse activity dont know the first thing about either.

Bendihorse

Wow. It would seem that a lot happened in here after i went home on Friday evening...

convert

It's always easy to focus on sports that are in the media, such as racing, eventing, showjumping, hunting, etc., but just curious as to whether anyone has statistics for how many horses are injured/killed either in stables or fields, where it doesn't receive the same media attention?

wombles

convert wrote: »

It's always easy to focus on sports that are in the media, such as racing, eventing, showjumping, hunting, etc., but just curious as to whether anyone has statistics for how many horses are injured/killed either in stables or fields, where it doesn't receive the same media attention?

Excellent point!