Cruelty to horses?

kerrysgold

I think a sport like racing should be made safer, sure it might be thrilling etc to see the horses tackling massive fences but I don't think a horses life is worth a bit of excitement, and I also don't agree with 2 y/o horses being raced. Fox hunts are also quite dangerous since the horses follow wherever the fox goes which might involve jumping wire etc (have actually seen horses being advertised where the ad says they can jump wire! why on earth would you put your horse at wire anyway?!) but then horses can injure themselves for stupid reasons like slipping the field and breaking a leg or tripping over, or dying because of colic from careless feeding etc. (even though obviously colic can affect even the most well cared for horses)
not really to do with injuries but I don't like how competition/race horses seem to be stabled so much, even during the day. does anyone know how much daily turnout a racehorse gets? not including being ridden/in the horse walker. I have also heard of people that have valuable horses being afraid to turn them out with other horses in case they get injured while playing, so basically the poor horse isn't allowed to be a horse.

bob1984

kerrysgold wrote: »

Fox hunts are also quite dangerous since the horses follow wherever the fox goes which might involve jumping wire etc (have actually seen horses being advertised where the ad says they can jump wire! why on earth would you put your horse at wire anyway?!)

Have you actually ever hunted?
Horses dont follow the fox, the hounds do and the field master then leads the riders. And certanly any hunt I have been on riders are not forced to jump wire, they can choose to do so but most horses that do are trained for this anyway....

Borderfox

Personally I think for everything Horses give us, we as humans do them a great dis-service. I have seen Horses lives wasted in the pursuit of monetary gain and sometimes it makes me sick to my stomach, and this is coming from somebody who takes pictures of Horses for a living so imo I have a wide range of experience in all aspects of the sport.

convert

bob1984 wrote: »

Have you actually ever hunted?
Horses dont follow the fox, the hounds do and the field master then leads the riders. And certanly any hunt I have been on riders are not forced to jump wire, they can choose to do so but most horses that do are trained for this anyway....

Good point!

In addition, a lot of people opt not to jump wire/ditches/fences out hunting if they feel their horses are too inexperienced. I for one have no problem retracing my steps and catching up via road/alternative route if I feel that the obstacle isn't suitable for my horse. It doesn't happen that often as I've taught the horses how to jump wire, drains, ditches etc at home in a safe and quiet environment, so when they go out hunting they know what to do and don't make mistakes.

Furthermore, why is there always an immediate and large focus on fox hunting when 'hunting' is mentioned. Harriers, staghounds, and drag hunts also cross the same country and come across the same fences, so I don't think it's entirely fair just to focus on fox hunting simply because some people don't agree with it.


As for racing and making it safer...

As somebody who has both evented and point-to-pointed, I would much rather send my horse racing than eventing any day. The fences that are used eventing are solid, man-made fences that don't have any 'give' in them if a horse hits them. At least racing (and I'm talking national hunt racing here - point-to-pointing, steeplechasing and hurdle races) if a horse hits the fence there is some 'give' in it and the horse is much less likely to somersault (this isn't an attack on eventing btw, so don't take it as such!)

Finally, as for how much time a racehorse spends out in the field etc. varies.

Since I point-to-point (the season runs from around October to June) my horse stays out for the summer, and is in the field all day every day. When he comes back into light work in August he's out for a few hours everyday, but when he's back into full work it's not viable to keep him out. Not only is the grass not as plentiful but it's also too cold. Anyway, when you're trying to get a horse racing fit, you don't want him eating much grass as it tends to keep too much weight on him ('fat' weight as opposed to 'muscle' weight) for fast work. However, we do have an enclosed stableyard, so he gets outside for a bit about 4-5 times a day in addition to the time he's outside being exercised. He also gets about 10 minutes in-hand grazing everyday. So although he's not being 'turned out' in the manner that some people would like him to be, he's not in his stable all day long.

Kerrysgold, you've got to remember that a racehorses and competition horses are not like pleasure/occasional competition horses. They need different care and feeding regimes. Competition and racehorses can't perform at their maximum potential if they're turned out all the time or for long periods each day during the competition/racing season. This is something you've got to appreciate and come to understand.

Borderfox

I thought the eventing fences were changed to include zip ties with a breaking strain to give way if the force is exceeded? I could be wrong though. Sounds like a nice life for your horse Convert

convert

That may be the case; I'm not sure as it's been a number of years since I've evented. Even still, the fences will still require a huge amount of force to collapse under pressure.

kerrysgold

It's not always the fences that are the danger either, as that french horse proved tragically

togster

Why what happened the french horse? Horses sometimes die eventing or other sports but horses also die because of worm infestation, collic etc. Neither are natural occurences. Neither is more cruel than the other. Competition horses and horses used for recreational uses are used by humans for enjoyment.

AckwelFoley

Look, i got to go out and earn my keep as a person.

Horses should too.

togster

snyper wrote: »

Look, i got to go out and earn my keep as a person.

Horses should too.

+1

wombles

And look at the Olympic hopeful dressage horse that died this week. it was just out loose playing around and shattered leg in 7 places.

miss enzo

i dont think using animals for sports is cruetly as long as the animals are given proper care... i mean its not like the horse isnt a natural athlete! its not like we're asking things they physically cant do.. that would be cruel.... granted sometimes the limits are pushed but thats how things go!
as for injuries durin sports sure how many footballers break their legs, arms, noses etc... sports = injury!
the welfare issue is how the animal is treated post injury. if its a bad one ur better off just puttin the horse down because keeping it alive and trying to fix it could prolong suffering and pain.


so ya all and all i dont think its cruel as long as welfare is considered!

kerrysgold

togster wrote: »

Why what happened the french horse? Horses sometimes die eventing or other sports but horses also die because of worm infestation, collic etc. Neither are natural occurences. Neither is more cruel than the other. Competition horses and horses used for recreational uses are used by humans for enjoyment.

He hit off the little flag pole at the side of the fence (you know the red and white flags) and broke it and it severed an artery in his chest I think

wombles, what dressage horse was that? didn't hear anything about that! :eek:

wombles

Fiona Bigwood lost her Olympics dressage horse in a freak accident.

http://eurodressage.com/news/dressag...8/gbr_mrg.html

kerrysgold

What a shame, he was a beauty

togster

kerrysgold wrote: »

He hit off the little flag pole at the side of the fence (you know the red and white flags) and broke it and it severed an artery in his chest I think

Bad buzz but i've seen a horse in a field that had somehow managed to stake himself through his chest. Sh!t happens sometimes. As a previous poster stated horse sports are fine as long as welfare is considered a top priority.

wombles

And Fiona Bigwood's horse shattered its leg while it was playing on the loose! Our shetland pony broke a leg whilst out playing a year ago - had he been stabled it wouldnt have happened.

Is jumping a horse more cruel than fattening cattle to go to slaughter? I know which animal I would prefer to be. It seems that anything that is deemed "sport" is cruel - yet anything that is for the plate is fine.

In eventing I think the percentage of riders that have been killed is probably higher than the number of horses.

napoles

kerrysgold wrote: »

He hit off the little flag pole at the side of the fence (you know the red and white flags) and broke it and it severed an artery in his chest I think
:eek:

Yep, I was there last year when it happened. Heartbreaking, but a freak accident. As far as I know they are replacing those wooden flags now with the bendy ones that would yield under pressure.
The use of frangible pins which allow the fence to collapse is looking like becoming more main stream too as an attempt to prevent the dreaded rotational falls which cause the most injuries and fatalities.

There was a Eventing safety seminar recently in Copenhagen where these and other important safety points were discussed and debated with a view to making the sport safer for both horse and rider.

miss enzo

wombles wrote: »

And Fiona Bigwood's horse shattered its leg while it was playing on the loose! Our shetland pony broke a leg whilst out playing a year ago - had he been stabled it wouldnt have happened.

sorry now but that is a silly remark!!! why do u think have a horse locked up would be better for them! get real!!! the more natural livin environment (ie living outside) has been scienctifically proven (and i know cause i read some of the studies in college as part of one of my modules!) to improve horses mental and physical wellbeing.

goin by ur point its like if u have a kid are u goin to let them play outside or keep them locked up in the house for fear that something might happen..... kids fall and hurt themselves horses get injured occasionally too...... sh!t happens its the aftercare thats important (as stated in my previous post!)

in fairness though do you think the equine conpetition scence would be as popular worldwide if it was seen as cruel:rolleyes:

miss enzo

napoles wrote: »

Yep, I was there last year when it happened. Heartbreaking, but a freak accident. As far as I know they are replacing those wooden flags now with the bendy ones that would yield under pressure.

where did that happen...... i remember seein it somewhere and cant remember where!

kerrysgold

I think it was Badminton?

napoles

Yeah, it was at Badminton. It was soul-destroying. And everybody connected with the horse was devastated. The rider was stricken with grief. It's hard to bring in the cruelty argument when you see just how much that horse was loved.

fits

I know everyone here is dismissing the idea that there is much to be concerned about. I think there is... across all equestrian sports. In my opinion all disciplines can be guilty of sacrificing their horses' welfare. You just have to look at things like Rollkur, rapping, backing yearlings for racing at two, badly fitting tack, poor husbandry and breeding practices. Hell I was in a racing stables where the horses didnt get *any* rough forage of any sort for a few months because they ran out. The damage that must have done both to the animals' stomachs and mental well-being (no turnout either)... well ....

The fact is, that where there is competition and money involved, some people will take shortcuts at the expense of their animals. Equestrianism is far from clean. Of course horses should earn their keep, but it is up to us to look after them properly while they do so.

napoles

I think most commercial enterprises have an element of that. I am certainly not discounting the fact that cruelty goes on, especially as you say, where money and ambition are in play. It happens at every level unfortunately, but there are bad apples in every cart.

I have friends who compete at the very highest level of the sport and I know that their horses are happy, healthy animals who get turnout no matter how valuable they are. I suppose I just don't believe competition is automatically associated with cruelty.
Cruelty to animals happens everywhere and surely the evidence of occurrences of cruelty in competition are less than the occurrences of cruelty to horses in domestic situations.

fits

napoles wrote: »

Cruelty to animals happens everywhere and surely the evidence of occurrences of cruelty in competition are less than the occurrences of cruelty to horses in domestic situations.

I dont know really. Define cruelty.
I think there are concerns in both competitive and domestic situations to be honest.

napoles

That's not in question. Of course there are areas of concern in both domestic and competitive situations. I think we are all essentially singing from the same hymn sheet, i.e. the welfare of the horse and keeping these fabulous animals happy and healthy!

I just think that when you compare reports of horses suffering horrific neglect and cruelty such as the case of Spindles Farm in Amersham in the UK compared to the cases of Anky van Grunsven and Coby Van Balen receiving bad press for her use of Rollkeur, competition seems to be the lesser of two evils.

I absolutely agree that horses are made to suffer in the name of competition, and it makes me sick to my stomach, but I would like to hope that most top competition horses are fit, loved athletes who receive the very best care in order to keep them at the top of their game.

I'd even go so far as to say that most of them receive better care and feeding than their grooms!!

togster

napoles wrote: »

I'd even go so far as to say that most of them receive better care and feeding than their grooms!!

I'd have to agree with that! Stop cruelty to grooms:D

kerrysgold

I think stupid practices like rollkur should be banned from dressage, why is it necessary to force a horse to do something like that when other people can ride their horses and do dressage movements bareback and bridle-less?

I agree with the horse earning it's keep though, I've always looked on a horse as allowing itself to be ridden and give it's carer some enjoyment in return for being looked after, but I don't think people deserve to have fun out of a horse if they aren't caring for it properly.

I personally consider a horse not having much turnout cruelty, I have nothing against keeping a horse in at night although it's not something I would do but I don't see any reason for keeping a horse stabled during the day. All one has to do is put them in themselves in the horses shoes, so to speak, and I imagine most people would find being in an empty room for most of the day except for maybe an hour's riding or some time on the horse walker or maybe a while outdoors, extremely boring, and perhaps even go a bit mad after a while, since horses and humans are both social animals, so I think it'd be quite cruel to keep a horse alone for long periods too since they might be too edgy to relax or rest without having the safety of another herd member around. I probably rambled off a bit there but still.....

togster

OK so we all agree cruely to horses is a no no.

This thread is becoming circular...