I think I'm getting worse ...

Hivemind187

There are probably more than a few of you who have noticed a disconcerting reaction in yourself to people when they divulge that they are a "believer". I noticed it recently during a conversation at work and had to bite my tongue from either laughing bitterly or demanding that this person justify such irrational gobbledegook (I can't say for sure which it would have been since I didnt do it).

I recently attended my grandfathers funeral. I went to church and (it may surprise some of you to learn) I was perfectly pleasant about the whole ritual and funny, spastic mexican wave bit in the middle (the kneel-stand-kneel-sit-stand-kneel-sit-kneel thing ... I assume there are classes for this but that I was absent from school that day). That was, at least the outward facade that I affected for the sake of my mother and the children of the man we were mourning.

Personally, I was busy seething at the pompous prig of a priest smiling beatifically with closed eyes as though he were feeling the direct fondle of god himself. What was worse was this "true-believer" was only the assistant (the main priest is known to me and i have my suspicions about his faith or lack thereof).

The thing that got me though was the harping on about how the church and god had brought all the assembled reletives, friends and aquiantences that have nothing better to do past 70 than attend one anothers funerals together in celebration of the "gift of life" that had been bestowed upon my grandfather. Absolute rot.

I couldnt help but feel that crediting the non-existant for the real wonder of the occassion was wrong and slightly tasteless. To me, the act of coming togther as a group is the result of being the product of that mans sucess as a human being. The real beauty of the moment was in the representation of generations stemming from that single man. From the recombination of his genetic material came the lives and experiences, emotions and contributions of what in total must have been close to sixty people.

Somehow, it doesnt seem right to credit god for the success of that man. It doesnt seem right to take from him the kudos and respect that he deserves as the progenitor (at least the one we could pay our respects to).

It put me in mind of the Nordic tradition of celebrating the life of the dead. To feast and drink and tell stories in honor of the deceased. The mourning and morose, moping affectations of christians, Catholics in particular, is all the more upsetting in this light. At least to me.

For me it sums up the "when you are dead" arguement that has been had on these boards many a time. I dont want any of that religious clap-trap spouted over my corpse when the time comes. I am having my will changed to reflect this and that if anyone should attempt to offer any prayer etc to any supernatural entity they should be heir to nothing but a scornful video tape which I shall record when the anger and bitterness of middle age have sunk in (twenty something years from now in my case) - which should be an impressive quantity judging by my ample gifts in this area already.

Has anyone else found themselves getting more and more irritated by the confounded nonsense people are clinging to? I admit that for some people the ornaments of faith might suit them well, but for the most part it is like watching an adolescent trying to believe that a jolly-fat-man in a red coat really does come down the chimny or every good boy and girl in a single nocturnal blitz.

Seriously, if its just me let me know and I'll consider getting therapy but I have a suspicion that I am not alone in my growing contempt.

p.s
Before anyone starts banging on about having to respect other peoples faiths, I have made my position on that little number clear in numerous other threads, arguments, battles and bitchery sessions and they are straight forward enough. Respect a person, not their beliefs.

Dades

The last few funerals I've been to have been followed by a more Viking-like celebration of life.

Maybe the church bit is there to let know how depressing life could be so you might walk out and appreciate it!

Only times I've been in church in the last... many years... was for a couple of weddings. It just seemed like very primitive, typical rituals.

fatmammycat

Oh Hivemind, move up along that bench there and let me sit beside you...No wait, CSI is about to start, but I'm with you 100%.

Zamboni

I find it a pain attending religious ceremonies.

Whilst I am happy to sit and stand, I will not, can not kneel down.
I cannot force myself to show submission to a non-entity.
I have been asked to attend a christening soon and I really don't want to go as I think they rank highest in vulgarity. The indocrination of an innocent child :mad:
The funny thing is, I was an altar boy many years ago and I could still easily rhyme of an entire mass myself. I do laugh at my mates that go weddings with me and would not step inside of a church from one end of a year to the other but give it the whole genuflection, eucharist, closed eyes prayer malarky. Hypocrites.

the_syco

I find that lonely old people look for groups to join, and one of the few are usually church related. Also, if they can't seek forgiveness from whom they tormented, they seek forgiveness from a god.

Sad, but when you reach 80, are alone for a few months except for the TV, you may have a change of heart, and join an "exclusive" club (read: church) to talk to people.

Zamboni wrote: »

I do laugh at my mates that go weddings with me and would not step inside of a church from one end of a year to the other but give it the whole genuflection, eucharist, closed eyes prayer malarky. Hypocrites.

Only a fool believes that going to church every weekend/day makes them a "good" christain. You become a good christain by how you act towards others, not by walking into a building.

=-=


Me, I don't cross myself, eat the bread, say the prayers, but I do say "hello" prayers to my grandparents when I walk through holy ground. I don't believe in it(their religion), but they did, so they may be listening. Only God, if there is one, knows.

Zamboni

the_syco wrote: »

Only a fool believes that going to church every weekend/day makes them a "good" christain. You become a good christain by how you act towards others, not by walking into a building.

It's a bit like being in a football club and not turning up for practice.
Then turning up on match day expecting to be picked imo.

Hivemind187

the_syco wrote: »

I find that lonely old people look for groups to join, and one of the few are usually church related. Also, if they can't seek forgiveness from whom they tormented, they seek forgiveness from a god.

Sad, but when you reach 80, are alone for a few months except for the TV, you may have a change of heart, and join an "exclusive" club (read: church) to talk to people.

Doubtful ... our generation have SKYPE

JCB

Zamboni wrote: »

It's a bit like being in a football club and not turning up for practice.
Then turning up on match day expecting to be picked imo.

Very interesting point, but you have to remember that all Christians do this as a matter of course. Sure how about the person who goes to a religious service but is actually a nasty person?

I think it's unfair to tarnish your friends with that brush without at least extending it to all Christians.
I personally would extend it to all people, but obviously I wouldn't expect you to do the same.

Hivemind wrote:

I couldnt help but feel that crediting the non-existant for the real wonder of the occassion was wrong and slightly tasteless. To me, the act of coming togther as a group is the result of being the product of that mans sucess as a human being. The real beauty of the moment was in the representation of generations stemming from that single man. From the recombination of his genetic material came the lives and experiences, emotions and contributions of what in total must have been close to sixty people.

Somehow, it doesnt seem right to credit god for the success of that man. It doesnt seem right to take from him the kudos and respect that he deserves as the progenitor (at least the one we could pay our respects to).

Excellent point, and coming from an atheist point of view, it makes a lot of sense.

It just makes me wonder how an atheist could support the fact that an aborted child is deprived of the same thing. (atheists that support abortion obviously)

JCB

JCB wrote:

It just makes me wonder how an atheist could support the fact that an aborted child is deprived of the same thing. (atheists that support abortion obviously)

Deprived of what...?

Hivemind187

JCB wrote: »

Excellent point, and coming from an atheist point of view, it makes a lot of sense.

It just makes me wonder how an atheist could support the fact that an aborted child is deprived of the same thing. (atheists that support abortion obviously)

This thread
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055168201

And this blog entry
http://therereallyisaspoon.blogspot.com/2007_05_01_archive.html

Pretty much explains it.

I have been re-wording some parts of the position after coming to blows with several of the regulars here but the essence remains the same.

JCB

Hivemind187 wrote: »

This thread
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055168201

And this blog entry
http://therereallyisaspoon.blogspot.com/2007_05_01_archive.html

Pretty much explains it.

I have been re-wording some parts of the position after coming to blows with several of the regulars here but the essence remains the same.

I read your blog entry and cannot deny that you have done a good job explaining your stance rationally and eloquently.
Now of course, that doesn't mean I agree with any of it.
Would I be right in saying that it is guided by the 'reciprocal altruism' view you were talking about in the conscience thread?
I'll have to read up more on this reciprocal altruism, but based on what i've seen so far it would be completely opposite to my Christian views.

Especially the following phrase, which did indeed make me shudder:
"It is her altruistic and non-obligatory responsibility to support the foetus and therefore she possesses the “right” to cease supporting the foetus without interference from those who have no “responsibility” invested in the foetus."

spoonbadger

Ugh,now im gonna get all preachy here but....

just because someone (a priest/friend/relative) believes in a higher being, or even swallows the catholic thing whole doesnt mean we're better than them. nor does it mean that they are directly insulting us. i personally hate the smug, "sciencier than thou", kind of atheist. i have friends like that and every time they say something to the effect of "LOL (yes,this is in real life,they are nerds...), look at that religious dude, what a jesus fag", i feel like punching them square in the nads. if a friend of yours was going into hospital for minor surgery, and asked you to come along because they're worried,would you say "f**k that, strap on a pair", ?. or more appropriately, if someone invited you to a party but asked you to bring a few cans would you say "you expect ME to have to do something for YOU!", ?. Its not that hard to just go to a christening etc. for the sake of your friends/family and f***ing kneel down to show some respect (respect to them,not submission to a higher being). and if your an atheist then why do you care if you have to kneel etc.?. you dont even believe in what your trying to stand up to, by not exerting the few joules it takes to kneel down. rant over....

Hivemind187

JCB wrote: »

I read your blog entry and cannot deny that you have done a good job explaining your stance rationally and eloquently.
Now of course, that doesn't mean I agree with any of it.
Would I be right in saying that it is guided by the 'reciprocal altruism' view you were talking about in the conscience thread?
I'll have to read up more on this reciprocal altruism, but based on what i've seen so far it would be completely opposite to my Christian views.

Especially the following phrase, which did indeed make me shudder:
"It is her altruistic and non-obligatory responsibility to support the foetus and therefore she possesses the “right” to cease supporting the foetus without interference from those who have no “responsibility” invested in the foetus."

It's a deliberately intellectual position with as little given over to emotion as possible.

At the time of writing I found that the abortion issue was churning up peoples emotions so much that they were not being logical or dispassionate about the subject. It still requires rewording because the usage of certain terms seems to cause more trouble than intended.

It can be summed up simply though;

A woman wants to have an abortion. She is doing all the work supporting the entity growing inside her (providing oxygen, nutrients, hormones etc) to her own disadvantage. She can choose to cease supporting that entity without affecting anyone other than herself and the entity - since that entity is not contributing it should not be bestowed with "rights". When and if that entity begins to act in such a way as to continue its functions with out the life-support machine (mother) then it gains the right to have no one interfere with its continued existance.

I'm not going to get into a debate over abortion though. My original point was that funerals are a horrible way to rob the deceased of the kudos for their achievments and pass them on to a non-existant being - which if you think about it is an utter absurdity.

Think about it this way, if you had the credit for your achievement of being the first man on the moon or something given to say ... a basset hound in Middlesborough how would you feel about it? Now find out that the Basset hound is actually a cartoon in a childrens book and not actually real at all. How would you feel about that?

Hivemind187

spoonbadger wrote: »

Ugh,now im gonna get all preachy here but....

just because someone (a priest/friend/relative) believes in a higher being, or even swallows the catholic thing whole doesnt mean we're better than them. nor does it mean that they are directly insulting us. i personally hate the smug, "sciencier than thou", kind of atheist. i have friends like that and every time they say something to the effect of "LOL (yes,this is in real life,they are nerds...), look at that religious dude, what a jesus fag", i feel like punching them square in the nads. if a friend of yours was going into hospital for minor surgery, and asked you to come along because they're worried,would you say "f**k that, strap on a pair", ?. or more appropriately, if someone invited you to a party but asked you to bring a few cans would you say "you expect ME to have to do something for YOU!", ?. Its not that hard to just go to a christening etc. for the sake of your friends/family and f***ing kneel down to show some respect (respect to them,not submission to a higher being). and if your an atheist then why do you care if you have to kneel etc.?. you dont even believe in what your trying to stand up to, by not exerting the few joules it takes to kneel down. rant over....

Arent you a genius.

What about them respecting MY right not to believe or be subjected to the prevailing mumbo-jumbo?

Funny how its always about respcting the religious fruit who believes in sky-faeries and never about someone who has had courage enough to say "No. I dont believe all of this hocus-pocus and I have come to that decision by thinking for myself".

See the problem is that we should respect other individuals, at least to the same level that they respect us (take THAT christianity) however why should we respect the stupidity of their beliefs? The beliefs dont require respect. If people are secure enough in those beliefs then why do they need to anoint them further and mark them as something that should not ever be made the subject of ridicule or curiosity? YET your own beliefs must take a back seat to the pius, beatifically smirking twats that you have shown respect to!

Frankly, if you were to respect everyone elses beliefs to the detriment of your own beliefs then you shouldnt be surprised when they start bombing busses and airplanes and then shrug and mumble about "my beliefs are different to yours" when you ask them why they thought that was a good idea.

Sorry.

Rant over.

Pompey Magnus

Hivemind187 wrote: »

There are probably more than a few of you who have noticed a disconcerting reaction in yourself to people when they divulge that they are a "believer". I noticed it recently during a conversation at work and had to bite my tongue from either laughing bitterly or demanding that this person justify such irrational gobbledegook (I can't say for sure which it would have been since I didnt do it).

I can't say I have ever felt quite like that when it comes to religious people (although I certainly feel exactly like that when I encounter people who really believe in homeopathy and other alternative nonsense). I think it is a shame that they believe in it and I honestly feel they are missing out on something because of it . I have two aunts who are nuns and one cousin a priest, none have had the opportunity to marry and to have up a child, and from my point of view they have missed out and denied themselves experiences which should be so meaningful and important to any human because of the lies or misinterpretations of a few men who lived thousands of years ago. The same with lay members of the Church, they are happy to accept the smallness of the Universe that the church teaches with its burning bushes and 7 day creation and don't feel the need to search for any more answers, they have all the answers and mysteries they want in their Bible.

I certainly wouldn't feel like laughing bitterly at believers, but I do feel they are victims of a hoax and have lost out on something special in their lives because of it. I certainly don't respect their beliefs but I do respect them, so when I get in discussions with a believer I try to point out the silliness of their religion without trying to sound like I think they are stupid for believing it.

spoonbadger

Arent you a genius.

What about them respecting MY right not to believe or be subjected to the prevailing mumbo-jumbo?

......

when's the last time some of your friends/family have said to you "you should be readin the bible,yer a feckin eejit.there is a god and thats it!"?

by comparison, when's the last time you insulted,or laughed at someone because of their religious views?

they dont deserve more respect than you. nor do you deserve more than them. if you really cant sit through an hour of being with other people then politely tell them you dont want go. but if you do go to such a religious event,it doesnt give you the right to act like a god in your own right,sit there acting pissy throughout and bitch about it afterwards.

YET your own beliefs must take a back seat to the pius, beatifically smirking twats that you have shown respect to!

well done,showing lots of respect there......

Hivemind187

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

I can't say I have ever felt quite like that when it comes to religious people (although I certainly feel exactly like that when I encounter people who really believe in homeopathy and other alternative nonsense). I think it is a shame that they believe in it and I honestly feel they are missing out on something because of it . I have two aunts who are nuns and one cousin a priest, none have had the opportunity to marry and to have up a child, and from my point of view they have missed out and denied themselves experiences which should be so meaningful and important to any human because of the lies or misinterpretations of a few men who lived thousands of years ago. The same with lay members of the Church, they are happy to accept the smallness of the Universe that the church teaches with its burning bushes and 7 day creation and don't feel the need to search for any more answers, they have all the answers and mysteries they want in their Bible.

I certainly wouldn't feel like laughing bitterly at believers, but I do feel they are victims of a hoax and have lost out on something special in their lives because of it. I certainly don't respect their beliefs but I do respect them, so when I get in discussions with a believer I try to point out the silliness of their religion without trying to sound like I think they are stupid for believing it.

I get what you are saying.

It might be that the believers that I have encountered in my life have tended to be the bible-thumping do-as-I-commandeth types. I may be prejudiced.

On the other hand the sensation you get from dealing with the homeopathy, armomatherapy types I completely understand. In most cases they annoy me even more because a lot of them are atheists or at least agnostic but they believe that dihydrogen-monoxide is going to cure them of all their ill's.

My ex girlfriend actually broke up with me because of that nonsense if you can believe it. It appears that she is one of those people who would prefer to believe than to not believe (though she was by no means a christian). She poured money in to fortune tellers, took up veganism because of the pronounced benefits to her health and psyche. I would have been fine with it save that it impacted on my life as well and I couldnt bring myself to believe that irradicating the majority of food groups to rely on artifical supplements was healthier than eating the genuine article. I also had a problem with giving so much "silver" over to cold-readers.

I guess its the modern crux of life isnt it? We know enough to know that nearly everything that has been believed for the last four millenia is rubbish but we lack the complete explanations to put a stop to the proliferation of confusion.

Hivemind187

spoonbadger wrote: »

......


when's the last time some of your friends/family have said to you "you should be readin the bible,yer a feckin eejit.there is a god and thats it!"?

by comparison, when's the last time you insulted,or laughed at someone because of their religious views?

they dont deserve more respect than you. nor do you deserve more than them. if you really cant sit through an hour of being with other people then politely tell them you dont want go. but if you do go to such a religious event,it doesnt give you the right to act like a god in your own right,sit there acting pissy throughout and bitch about it afterwards.

Charmer.

You dont get out much do you? This is obvious since you think that everyone acts perfectly reasonably towards one another.

You're obviously young or from the city somewhere since you were never frog-marched to confession under penalty of extra homework by your school.

I make these assumptions because they bleed through from your rhetoric.

You se the problem right? That you assume that because someone is annoyed by the giving of thanks to a non-existant god rather than the the progenitor of those assembled that they will be wildly laughing in peoples the instant they mention they are a Catholic.

Indeed, my original post was that I stopped myself from doing that because I didn't particularly want to offend or lose another job because of the kind of bull**** it can cause.

My response to you was that there is a disturbing tendency to treat religious beliefs as though they were particularly above ridicule or qustioning - they are not. And they are ceretainly not due respect. An individual person should be respected to a point but their beliefs are a different matter. Forcing your way through a convoluted ritual and going through the motions to avoid the inevitable row it would cause is one thing, but why should I have to feel anything other than contempt in order to be respectful? Why shouldnt I feel "pissy" as you so eloquently put it?

Surely MY beliefs and feelings are worth as much as those of other people? Arguably they are worth more since i have come to my understanding of the world through learning, debate, thought and question rather than being spoon fed a daily dose of rhetoric.

Pompey Magnus

Hivemind187 wrote: »

I guess its the modern crux of life isnt it? We know enough to know that nearly everything that has been believed for the last four millenia is rubbish but we lack the complete explanations to put a stop to the proliferation of confusion.

I remember listening to an interview with Richard Dawkins who said that he is dismayed that although religion is generally on the decline (with some notable exceptions) the void that religion has left is not being filled by rationality and sceptical thinking but instead by beliefs which are just as ridiculous and maybe moreso as that which they replace. I think Dawkins was genuinely perplexed and irritated by this and it seems to have be an unforeseen consequence of science's gradual rise at the price of religion.

I would guess that the scientific community expected a new Enlightenment to be the product of the death of religion but it seems that people flock instead to the pseudo-sciences which use scientific sounding phrases like Quantum Energy or Bio-Energy to justify themselves by stealing from the good name that science has build for itself over the centuries.

It is so confusing, perhaps Marx miscalculated when he said "Criticism has plucked the imaginary flowers on the chain not in order that man shall continue to bear that chain without fantasy or consolation, but so that he shall throw off the chain and pluck the living flower", maybe people actually do prefer comforting lies to the truth which offers them nothing more than the here and now.

Hivemind187

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

I remember listening to an interview with Richard Dawkins who said that he is dismayed that although religion is generally on the decline (with some notable exceptions) the void that religion has left is not being filled by rationality and sceptical thinking but instead by beliefs which are just as ridiculous and maybe moreso as that which they replace. I think Dawkins was genuinely perplexed and irritated by this and it seems to have be an unforeseen consequence of science's gradual rise at the price of religion.

I would guess that the scientific community expected a new Enlightenment to be the product of the death of religion but it seems that people flock instead to the pseudo-sciences which use scientific sounding phrases like Quantum Energy or Bio-Energy to justify themselves by stealing from the good name that science has build for itself over the centuries.

It is so confusing, perhaps Marx miscalculated when he said "Criticism has plucked the imaginary flowers on the chain not in order that man shall continue to bear that chain without fantasy or consolation, but so that he shall throw off the chain and pluck the living flower", maybe people actually do prefer comforting lies to the truth which offers them nothing more than the here and now.

As evidenced by the popularity of soap operas.

Scofflaw

Hivemind187 wrote:

a priest smiling beatifically with closed eyes as though he were feeling the direct fondle of god himself

Love it!

not being fondled by God,
Scofflaw

Hivemind187

Scofflaw wrote: »

Love it!

not being fondled by God,
Scofflaw

Thanks

c0rk3r

Hivemind187 wrote: »

Seriously, if its just me let me know and I'll consider getting therapy but I have a suspicion that I am not alone in my growing contempt

Think its time to call 11811 and ask for that therapist. All you seem to be exuding is anger, hate, aggression and utter intolerance. Maybe in future feign an illness or politely, calmly explain your position in the most sincere manner but i doubt your capabale of this.

That comment regarding the rise of soaps and psuedoscience was a low blow. Some people think spending a fortune on toy guns and dressing up in army camouflage and essentially playing toy soldiers with your buddies over the weekend is a tad bit ridiculous, immature and sad.

Hivemind187

c0rk3r wrote: »

Think its time to call 11811 and ask for that therapist. All you seem to be exuding is anger, hate, aggression and utter intolerance. Maybe in future feign an illness or politely, calmly explain your position in the most sincere manner but i doubt your capabale of this.

That comment regarding the rise of soaps and psuedoscience was a low blow. Some people think spending a fortune on toy guns and dressing up in army camouflage and essentially playing toy soldiers with your buddies over the weekend is a tad bit ridiculous, immature and sad.

And being a keyboard warrior attacking someone making fair comment in a public forum isnt?

Edit: Come to think of it, its a little rich to take criticism from someone who swaps letters for numbers. Some might say that portrays a lack of originality and intellect ... far be it from me to cast aspertions.

c0rk3r

Oh im sorry. Did i insult or annoy you ? In the same way you insult and annoy religious folk. Do you not see the parallels. I dont particularly think the comment was fair.

Listen you asked a question in a public forum and got an answer from a member of the public whether you like that answer or not.

Hivemind187

c0rk3r wrote: »

Oh im sorry. Did i insult or annoy you ? In the same way you insult and annoy religious folk. Do you not see the parallels. I dont particularly think the comment was fair.

Listen you asked a question in a public forum and got an answer from a member of the public whether you like that answer or not.

You did notice the sign on the way in that says "Atheists" right?

I didnt post this in the Christianity forum because i didnt want to piss them off. You came in here and sought objectionable material, congratulations, you found some.

I truly hope it did upset you. It wasnt the original intent, but its a nice bonus.

Pompey Magnus

c0rk3r wrote: »

That comment regarding the rise of soaps and psuedoscience was a low blow.

How so, especially with regard to pseudoscience?

CerebralCortex

c0rk3r wrote: »

Think its time to call 11811 and ask for that therapist. All you seem to be exuding is anger, hate, aggression and utter intolerance. Maybe in future feign an illness or politely, calmly explain your position in the most sincere manner but i doubt your capabale of this.

That comment regarding the rise of soaps and psuedoscience was a low blow. Some people think spending a fortune on toy guns and dressing up in army camouflage and essentially playing toy soldiers with your buddies over the weekend is a tad bit ridiculous, immature and sad.

Whats eating you man? Does Hivemind187 actually do that? And if even he deos at least its more original than whole famillies sitting around watching and worshipping ill educated incredibly stupid people on a street in Manchester fùck each other over.

c0rk3r

Atheism and Agnosticism. Yeah i saw it, Is that to say only non-believers in god can post here ? In the same way atheists shouldnt be allowed cross over to the christianity forum and make posts or the Islamic forum etc ? because thats news to me.

I think its really an attitude problem you have. You seem to revel in the fact that you might have offended me. In fact you hoped you did. What kind of person does that make you ? As i suggested before i think its time to give that therapist a call.

Im agnostic studying pure chemsitry. Hope that helps

Pompey Magnus

c0rk3r wrote: »

Atheism and Agnosticism. Yeah i saw it, Is that to say only non-believers in god can post here ? In the same way atheists shouldnt be allowed cross over to the christianity forum and make posts or the Islamic forum etc ? because thats news to me.

Actually he pointed out that he didn't post in the Christianity forum and chose the Atheist and Agnostic forum after you accused him of insulting and annoying religious folk. It seems like a fair comment by me.