The Superbowl

dc69

davyjose wrote: »

By that reckoning then, 2 of the 3 Patriots SB's are null and void . And the cowboys are just as good. You can't have it both ways. Either the team that tops the leagues are the best or the Superbowl winners are. You had no problems claiming that in '02 and '04! :rolleyes:

Sorry, make that '02 & '05

tbh i only started watching this year and just picked the patriots cause i liked randy moss:) I just thought that as a newbie observation the system seems flawed although it does produce results that could be mirrored to the american dream,eg giants are complete underdogs and beat the unbeaten team,stuff of fairytales

this wouldnt happen if it was a proper league but i doubt they will change it now,
they could run a league like the premiership and there is a winner and then the top 4 play each other like a superbowl semi and final.it would produce a league winner and then a superbowl winner.
I just thought it was funny the way the patriots over the season go unbeaten and get beat in the final and the giants are declared champs but if they played each other 10 times the patriots would be the more likely winners

davyjose

dc69 wrote: »

tbh i only started watching this year and just picked the patriots cause i liked randy moss:) I just thought that as a newbie observation the system seems flawed although it does produce results that could be mirrored to the american dream,eg giants are complete underdogs and beat the unbeaten team,stuff of fairytales

this wouldnt happen if it was a proper league but i doubt they will change it now,
they could run a league like the premiership and there is a winner and then the top 4 play each other like a superbowl semi and final.it would produce a league winner and then a superbowl winner.
I just thought it was funny the way the patriots over the season go unbeaten and get beat in the final and the giants are declared champs but if they played each other 10 times the patriots would be the more likely winners

Maybe so, but Tom Brady would still have less SB rings than he has now. It's 6 of one half a dozen of the other. The FA cup is BS now, the league is a great system but without the occasion, the SB, like the Champions league English Rugby premiership tries to combine both systems, but nobody in the champions league (where no team to have won all 6 group games have won the final) claims that the winners aren't deserved champions.

kryogen

westair wrote: »

By what measure.... by what measure??? The superbowl IS the measure and they failed. Didn't see one commentator after the game agreeing with you. Watched ESPN, FOX, NFL and not one said that they were the best. They failed in the final test. Just saying that they are the best and putting that spin on don't make it so.

again your talking out your arse, pretty standard for you, im not going to argue with you cuz your pathetic constant hating of anything patriots just pisses me off, why do i think they are the best? what measure? ok ill give you one, they went more games unbeaten in a season then any other team in history, 18-1 is the best finish a team has ever had,in the sense they went unbeaten week after week and just ran out of steam imo in the end, they beat the giants a few weeks previous, does that mean that the giants didnt deserve their SB victory? of course not, one result can change peoples perceptions of the facts, but not the facts themselves......if you think that one result changes a seasons achievment your more of an idiot then i thought

(i gladly accept a ban if its neccessary here, he is an idiot in fairness)


only an idiot would forget what the team has achieved this year, yes they lost a game, one game, i know how big that game was, but it doesnt undo the work of the season for me, they were outplayed on the night, the other team wanted it more, every dog has its day and all that.....

FglglglgUlgglglglgClglglglglKlhlhlhlhllhU

AngryHippie

Agree with Kryogen to a point. Patriots were impressive all season, but the Giants defensive plays smothered them, during the 2nd and 3rd quarter the Patriots never managed to return outside their won 22 and Brady was gettin closed down way to often, The fact that they managed to spring that 2nd touchdown drive was a testament to the character of the Patriots offense. They were outplayed in the 4th quarter but up to the 2 minute warning it was very difficult to foresee that outcome. Great finish, Mediocre game, 2 superb sides.

Vikings

dc69 wrote: »

the superbowl is the equivelant of the fa cup ,the premiership determines the best team that year.that says it all,patriots are the superior team,stupid system imo

Who had the best regular season record in 2001?
Who had the best regular season record in 2003?
Who had the best regular season record in 2004?

In case you can't see where i'm going with that, what I am trying to say is.. without looking up the records, I don't remember who had the best regular season record in each of those years. Was it the Superbowl champions (Patriots)? It's possible, but are they remembered for winning the Superbowl or for having the best regular season record?

At the end of the day the Champion is whoever hoists the Lombardi after the final whistle, and this year that is the Giants.

The Patriots had a great season thats not in question at all, I mean 18 straight wins in one season will probably never be equalled again, but because they did not win the Superbowl... well they are just mere stats now. They are not the champions and they are not the best team. The best team in the NFL this season is officially the Giants.

I think that is great because I can now say that the Vikings hammered the Superbowl champs 41-17 in the regular season

kryogen wrote: »

again your talking out your arse, pretty standard for you, im not going to argue with you cuz your pathetic constant hating of anything patriots just pisses me off, why do i think they are the best? what measure? ok ill give you one, they went more games unbeaten in a season then any other team in history, 18-1 is the best finish a team has ever had,in the sense they went unbeaten week after week and just ran out of steam imo in the end, they beat the giants a few weeks previous, does that mean that the giants didnt deserve their SB victory? of course not, one result can change peoples perceptions of the facts, but not the facts themselves......if you think that one result changes a seasons achievment your more of an idiot then i thought

(i gladly accept a ban if its neccessary here, he is an idiot in fairness)


only an idiot would forget what the team has achieved this year, yes they lost a game, one game, i know how big that game was, but it doesnt undo the work of the season for me, they were outplayed on the night, the other team wanted it more, every dog has its day and all that.....

FglglglgUlgglglglgClglglglglKlhlhlhlhllhU

Ehh... where to start. This is the NFL. All 32 teams know that there is 16 regular season games, wild card weekend, divisional playoffs, championship games and then the Superbowl. That's 19/20 games depending on if you are a wild card or not. Every team knows this before the season starts, how do you run out of steam? How are you the best if you run out of steam?

As I said above, the Patriots had a great season and i'm not trying to take anything away from them. I enjoyed watching them play early in the season but as they did not win the Superbowl well... they are only the AFC champions of 2007/8 not the Superbowl or "World Champions" as its referred to.

They had their opportunity to be great and to go down in history and they couldn't get the job done.

hanton12

davyjose wrote: »

Tell it to Brady and Moss. Two guys who can leave with their heads held high, all things considered: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/8562-NFL-New_England_Patriots-Super_Bowl_XLII_Randy_Moss_Teaches_Bill_Belichick_Early_Exit_Technique-040208

Third_Echelon wrote: »

I stand corrected....

I do hope you know that is a pisstake article?!!:rolleyes:


As regards to the best team debate, being a Pats fan I know where Kryogen is coming from. the Pats were be far the best team this year, they demolished so many teams and had some great close wins as well.

But, in the annals of sporting history, they will be known as the team who didnt win the Superbowl, who won every game and failed at the last hurdle. I suppose I am still hurting and just lashing out, but the team cant be considered the best as they didnt win the Superbowl. You really have to win it to finish off the year.

Personally, if I was given the choice of winning every game in reg saeason, breaking records and not winning the superbowl, or, doing well in reg saeson, no records but win the Superbowl, I know which I would want. A ring is yours forever, records are good for measure and nice to have, but can be broken.

The Baltimore Colts still to this day talk about the one that got away from them against the Jets in SBIII. It still hurts them.

And do you know what is worse for me, I have to wait 8 fcuking months for it all again. At least iin the reg season if you lose, you have next week to bounce back and get on track again. We have to wait til next season and this loss is gonna hang over me until then. I cant imagine how the players feel.

RuggieBear

kryogen banned for abuse.

Third_Echelon

Sorry Pats fans.... Had to do it

http://www.rbk.com/us/perfectville/

davyjose

hanton12 wrote: »

I do hope you know that is a pisstake article?!!:rolleyes:

Ooh er ...
TBH it's not the only article I've read. It's widely been reported stateside that BB is a complete a**hole for doing what he did. And he did too. He knew well that therer was time left. He was even ushered off the pitch.

Kryogen, as someone pointed out, the Bears went 18-1 in '85 with a Superbowl win. I know which impresses me more.

hanton12

davyjose wrote: »

Ooh er ...
TBH it's not the only article I've read. It's widely been reported stateside that BB is a complete a**hole for doing what he did. And he did too. He knew well that therer was time left. He was even ushered off the pitch.

Yeah, BB is being given a hard enough time over it all. Shouldnt have walked off really. Both teams walked onto the field and were doing end of match thing, and BB hugged Coutghlin and was going away. Then the refs said there was one second left and called the teams back to do the final play. I suppose BB had just did his end of match thing and wasnt waiting around for the second. He should have alright, but I think more is being made of it than should be.

Think its fairly obvious its a pisstake tho! In fairness, not matter what kind of a pr!ck people think he is, do you really think he would come out after the game and say:

, but I've been a jerk since day one when I got here, and I'm still a jerk today. If anyone could teach me to be more of a classless jerk than I already am, it's Randy. When I saw that we could trade for him in the offseason, I knew that this season would be filled with less class than ever before."

davyjose wrote: »

Kryogen, as someone pointed out, the Bears went 18-1 in '85 with a Superbowl win. I know which impresses me more.

Thats it really tho. In 50 years time when peopl elook back, it will be on the Giants winning hte Superbowl, not how well the Patriots played during the year. I think thats what makes it harder to take. They showed they were be far the best team, but to make your mark in sporting history, you have to win the prize.

redspider

I thought it was a good final, and had a good sense of occasion given the Patriots record going into it and the possibility of their shutout season eclipsing the Dolphins record.

The match was dominated by both defenses, so it was not spectacular scoring wise. But defense is a part of the sport, a big part.

There was very little to split the teams. I thought the decision by New England to go for it rather than opt for a field goal when on a 4th down (wasnt it in the 3rd quarter) was a crucial one in a low scoring game as this and as it was at that point and as it proved to be. New England were very close to winning it, even though the Giants defense was better. But it did take a couple of near miracles to win the match in that final drive with the near-sacking of Manning who weaved and dodged away whilst having his shirt pulled and in the same play the close-to-a-hail-mary pass which was caught on his helmet by Tyree. That play was as close as you will get to a play being broken down, and such was the fine line between their winning of it and not.

And even after that there was no certainty. They had good position but securing a TD against any of these defenses was difficult. Hobbs made a fatal error when marking Buress at the same time that Manning picked him out and it was an easy score in the end.

Overall, a good final for NFL followers, but perhaps 'boring' for 'entertainment purposes'.

Redspider

Zzippy

kryogen wrote: »

why do i think they are the best? what measure? ok ill give you one, they went more games unbeaten in a season then any other team in history, 18-1 is the best finish a team has ever had

As others have said, the '85 Bears also went 18-1. Yes they lost to the Dolphins during the regular season, but better to lose one game in the 'league' than lose the biggest game of all. At least they won the Superbowl that year. And as others have said, that will be remembered far more than the 18-1 record of the Patriots this year.
Another measure of the greatness of a team is doing it when it really counts, and the Pats this year couldn't do that.

Wrecking Crew

redspider wrote: »

The match was dominated by both defenses, so it was not spectacular scoring wise. But defense is a part of the sport, a big part.

"Offenses sells tickets, but defenses win championships"

davyjose

Zzippy wrote: »

Another measure of the greatness of a team is doing it when it really counts, and the Pats this year couldn't do that.

True, as a Colts fan it's ironic. Peyton Manning came in for a lot of criticism before he won a SB. And I think what people thought the one thing Brady had over him (before this season anyway) was his temperament - his ability to win the big games. And then on the season he goes and breaks Manning's records, he plays one of the worst games of his recent career. Certainly his worst of this year.

davyjose

Zzippy wrote: »

As others have said, the '85 Bears also went 18-1.

'84 49ers too???

RuggieBear

tbh i'm just delighted someone is arguing that the 14-2 chargers were the real champions last season.:D

kryogen

kryogen wrote: »

18-1 is the best finish a team has ever had

18-1 and winning the Spuerbowl is actually the best finish ever for that number of games.

And that has been done twice. Afaik the 49ers and the Bears in the mid 80s did it.

But it is the best finish for a loser. Pats will go down as the best runners up alright.

davyjose

http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d8067d05e

Ah that's Bass.

What an incredible catch.

RuggieBear

Didn't the 91 Redskins only lose 2 games. One competitve one and then their last regular season game when they played no starters. Now that team slaughtered a good many teams on it's way to the superbowl.

Zzippy

davyjose wrote: »

'84 49ers too???

Yep, sorry missed them.

http://www.pro-football-reference.co...s/sfo/1984.htm

RuggieBear wrote: »

tbh i'm just delighted someone is arguing that the 14-2 chargers were the real champions last season.:D

westair

RuggieBear wrote: »

Didn't the 91 Redskins only lose 2 games. One competitve one and then their last regular season game when they played no starters. Now that team slaughtered a good many teams on it's way to the superbowl.

Yep sure did - they had a 14-2 season. Like your word "slaughtered" - it was a great year!!! The playoff game against the Atlanta Falcons was incredible for the rain, the spirit, the doggedness - in the earlier game Rypien had 442 passing yards and 6 touchdowns... memories, memories.

RuggieBear

yeah that was my first real season paying attention to American football. Think it was on channel 4 or something

magog

there are fair points being made about the bears and the 49ers (my team!) but i think i understand what he meant when he said it was a great run

i agree with alot of what Kryogen said though, and as an american football fan, not just a 49ers fan, i would have liked to see the patriots win, even though i predicted a giants win! they were the best team this year, the giants took it to another level in the SB, they stopped what is without doubt in my mind, the best offence i have ever seen......they stepped it up for that game, i think its sad though that the patriots team will be remembered as the team who blew their great chance at perfection

im sure alot of the more bitter type fans are delighted that they lost, but thats just dont to jealousy,and proves how big the pats are, how good they are, nobody hates the worst team do they

westair, you continuously insult anything to do with the patriots....why? we know you hate them, tbh, i dont care if you hate them! they arent my team, they arent your team, why spend so much time devoted to them? i really think you should just grow up in fairness

so, 49ers for superbowl 43 anyone???? lol

SantryRed

Deleted User wrote: »

18-1 and winning the Spuerbowl is actually the best finish ever for that number of games.

And that has been done twice. Afaik the 49ers and the Bears in the mid 80s did it.

But it is the best finish for a loser. Pats will go down as the best runners up alright.

Bet the Patriots will be delighted so.:p

westair

magog wrote: »

t
westair, you continuously insult anything to do with the patriots....why? we know you hate them, tbh, i dont care if you hate them! they arent my team, they arent your team, why spend so much time devoted to them? i really think you should just grow up in fairness

so, 49ers for superbowl 43 anyone???? lol

Actually I am using a debating method of answering what is written each time to give another point of view - fact is there is no one that I can see with my point of view on the cheating so I guess I do tend to answer when i see no one else is. Where I live the cheating scandal is getting a huge amount of time in the media - especially the possibility of Senate hearings. I am in the DC catchment media area.

I began this when I saw all the acclaim for the Pats and thought I should inject some other points into the discussion. So many people answered me - and continue to do so - that I did feel compelled to give answers - and they were answers [plural] I do readily admit it. But I disagree that it is anything more than that. Each time I say that I will say no more someone else comes out of the woodwork and attacks me - frequently with quite personal remarks. Like you just did.

davyjose

I agree with you Westair, and had it been against one of the teams that pushed them close (like the Colts, Baltimore or Giants regular season), I would be callling for blood. But as it stands, I don't think it made that much difference to their season. And as I said before in another thread, I think it hurt them more than anyone else because it caused a shadow over their performances.

hanton12

westair wrote: »

Actually I am using a debating method of answering what is written each time to give another point of view - fact is there is no one that I can see with my point of view on the cheating so I guess I do tend to answer when i see no one else is. Where I live the cheating scandal is getting a huge amount of time in the media - especially the possibility of Senate hearings. I am in the DC catchment media area.

I began this when I saw all the acclaim for the Pats and thought I should inject some other points into the discussion. So many people answered me - and continue to do so - that I did feel compelled to give answers - and they were answers [plural] I do readily admit it. But I disagree that it is anything more than that. Each time I say that I will say no more someone else comes out of the woodwork and attacks me - frequently with quite personal remarks. Like you just did.

I can honestly say I never attacked you with personal insults. I can also say you never answered my questions for you [plural]. So keep going on about how you are here to debate. Keep going on about how there are hundreds of articles about spygate and how it is such a big senate issue. Keep going on about how there are hundreds of articles about Belichick and walking off the fieald and never mind the fact that you are seriously overblowing everything and totally exaggerating things to suit your own viewpoint. Trying to make out like those issues are huge? Get real. They may be huge to you, stop trying to make out that they are the biggest talking points in America. Dick Vermeil is the latest coach to come out and say its all a load of nothing.

ditpoker

i've listened to lots of people telling me how the superbowl was such a great game, an amazing show-piece etc etc...

would it be fair (and much more reasonable) to say that it was in fact a bad game of american football, that got interesting with 2mins to go. many of the playoff games were far more enjoyable to watch.

Zzippy

ditpoker wrote: »

i've listened to lots of people telling me how the superbowl was such a great game, an amazing show-piece etc etc...

would it be fair (and much more reasonable) to say that it was in fact a bad game of american football, that got interesting with 2mins to go. many of the playoff games were far more enjoyable to watch.

IMO you're confusing high-scoring/spectacular with good. Just because a game is low-scoring doesn't make it a bad game. The SB for me was a great game to watch because of the great defence play on both sides, but especially from the Giants. 5 sacks on Brady! American football isn't all about touchdowns and 60-yard kickoff returns ya know!
For me the SB was a really good game that got even better in the last quarter. Crowned by possibly the most spectacular play I've ever seen - that unbelievable catch by Tyree and I still can't figure out how Manning wasn't sacked. Now that was an amazing showpiece!

Charlie

ditpoker wrote: »

i've listened to lots of people telling me how the superbowl was such a great game, an amazing show-piece etc etc...

would it be fair (and much more reasonable) to say that it was in fact a bad game of american football, that got interesting with 2mins to go. many of the playoff games were far more enjoyable to watch.

No. Not for me anway. I really felt that New York's defence made it interesting. When you consider how lethal New England's offence has been all season, it was great to see New York constantly coming up time and time again to shut out Brady, and manage to keep their team within touching distance of the game.

Thus, when New England were on offence you knew, on one hand that Brady may well pull off something special, but on the other hand, from the get go the New York D looked superb (and had been for the most part of the season) so they will make it extremely difficult for Brady. Great battle IMO.

I also thought New York's running game was great to watch.

cooker3

Zzippy wrote: »

IMO you're confusing high-scoring/spectacular with good. Just because a game is low-scoring doesn't make it a bad game. The SB for me was a great game to watch because of the great defence play on both sides, but especially from the Giants. 5 sacks on Brady! American football isn't all about touchdowns and 60-yard kickoff returns ya know!
For me the SB was a really good game that got even better in the last quarter. Crowned by possibly the most spectacular play I've ever seen - that unbelievable catch by Tyree and I still can't figure out how Manning wasn't sacked. Now that was an amazing showpiece!

I completely agree. I felt the entire game was enthralling and the final quarter was the most exciting quarter I have seen in any superbowl

davyjose

I don't say this lightly but it was in the top 3 games I've ever seen ... in any Sport. It is often hard for someone this side of the atlantic to say this about what many call a stop-start game, but it was completely enthralling from Mannings 1st 3rd down pass right up to Brady's last Hail Mary.

Third_Echelon

davyjose wrote: »

I don't say this lightly but it was in the top 3 games I've ever seen ... in any Sport. It is often hard for someone this side of the atlantic to say this about what many call a stop-start game, but it was completely enthralling from Mannings 1st 3rd down pass right up to Brady's last Hail Mary.

+ 1

Spongey1975

Enjoyed it thoroughly even though it was relatively low scoring, 4th quarter was best i've seen all year. Mannings drive for the game winner was coolness personified, thats what Brady has been doing all season. Biggest joy for me in the match was watching the Giants defense get to Brady so much.