Should FA cup 3rd round be seeded?

Nunu

Wouldn't it make sense to seed the FA Cup 3rd draw when the Premier League clubs are introduced? The 64 teams could be in 2 pots (Say, all 20Premiership teams and 12 Championship teams in pot 1 and the rest in pot2)

The wonderful spectacle that was the Liverpool v Havant game today reminded me of why I think this should be the case.

Everyone would be a winner. No premiership teams would be drawn together in that round and the smaller clubs would be delighted because it would drastically improve their chances of a big draw which is what their players/fans dream about...and so do the money men financially. It would guarantee a batch of romantic ties...plus I'm a Utd fan and am fed up getting premiership clubs in every round:D....but seriously I think it's something worth discussing.

Obviously, the seeding would only apply to the 3rd round and all other rounds would remain an open draw as before.

OPENROAD

No, open draw imo as you say you only have to look at the Liverpool match today.

Nunu

OPENROAD wrote: »

No, open draw imo as you say you only have to look at the Liverpool match today.

I don't get you? If you're saying an open draw produced this tie, well surely there would more such ties in a seeded draw?

OPENROAD

Nunu wrote: »

I don't get you? If you're saying an open draw produced this tie, well surely there would more such ties in a seeded draw?

Maybe, maybe not, we don't know,a non league team wants a premiership team, going by your system of a seeded draw they could get a league 1 club and so would go out. Open draw works fine, only have to look at this seasons cup.

Bubs101

The beauty of the FA cup is the open draw and lord knows the top 4 don't need another advantage. One of the best things about the cup is that alot of the premiership teams get knocked out in the first round which throws up interesting interdivisional ties for the next few rounds. If it was seeded I'd say you'd be looking at only 2, maximum 3 premiership sides going out in the 3rd round therefore reducing the chance of a Wycombe getting to the semis or a Millwall getting to the final. The more premiership teams who have to play each other in rounds 3 and 4 the better

Nunu

OPENROAD wrote: »

Maybe, maybe not, we don't know,a non league team wants a premiership team, going by your system of a seeded draw they could get a league 1 club and so would go out. Open draw works fine, only have to look at this seasons cup.

Well, no they wouldn't...the worst they could do is get a top championship team, but I know what you're trying to say.

As you said yourself a non league team wants a premiership team and seeding it would greatly increase their chances of getting one (20 of 32 possible opponents.

Indeed, there is nothing wrong with the open draw I just think seeding it at that stage could benefit so many clubs and the competition

Nunu

Bubs101 wrote: »

The beauty of the FA cup is the open draw and lord knows the top 4 don't need another advantage. One of the best things about the cup is that alot of the premiership teams get knocked out in the first round which throws up interesting interdivisional ties for the next few rounds. If it was seeded I'd say you'd be looking at only 2, maximum 3 premiership sides going out in the 3rd round therefore reducing the chance of a Wycombe getting to the semis or a Millwall getting to the final. The more premiership teams who have to play each other in rounds 3 and 4 the better

Good counter argument Bubs.

Edit: after reading your post again I don't agree with the last line...Say in round 3 all the premier league clubs draw each other and then again in round 4 that would leave you with 5 top flight clubs in Round 5. Now there is no way that sort of scenario would not devalue the competition.

Bottom line is the cream of the crop will always rise to the top no matter what the format, so why not give the lesser teams a better chance at the jackpot in round 3?

Y2J_MUFC

Seeding would take away from the competition. The way it is now, you never know who will get who? Could throw up a supertie like United vs Liverpool.... the more premiership teams that play each other in the 3rd round the better. Like its fine having like Liverpool vs Oldham, but the game is added to even more, in the later rounds.

Plus, when a big teams plays a small club, theres always the possibility of a shock, theres something special about the tie. If we had these ties every round because of seeding they wouldn't be as special when they do happen! The novelty factor will wear off.... Don't fix something that aint broken

Nunu

Y2J_MUFC wrote: »

Seeding would take away from the competition. The way it is now, you never know who will get who? Could throw up a supertie like United vs Liverpool.... the more premiership teams that play each other in the 3rd round the better. Like its fine having like Liverpool vs Oldham, but the game is added to even more, in the later rounds.

Plus, when a big teams plays a small club, theres always the possibility of a shock, theres something special about the tie. If we had these ties every round because of seeding they wouldn't be as special when they do happen! The novelty factor will wear off.... Don't fix something that aint broken

Read my post again not every round, just 3rd round.

...and I'm not saying it's broken and needs to be fixed, just that it can be improved.

Drag00n79

Leave as is. It's what makes it.

OPENROAD

Shamrok wrote: »

Leave as is. It's what makes it.

Agree 100%, still something very special about the 3rd round imo.

Nailz

Y2J_MUFC wrote: »

The way it is now, you never know who will get who? Could throw up a supertie like United vs Liverpool.... the more premiership teams that play each other in the 3rd round the better.

In all fairness I'd rather see United against Liverpool in the Quarters or the Semis than the 3rd round... It would have alot more to do with winning the FA Cup than the 3rd round.

redzerdrog

no

MrJoeSoap

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I think the cup has survived this long without it for a reason.

Nailz

redzerdrog wrote: »

no

No what? It wasn't question, so it didn't require an answer.

MrJoeSoap

Nailz wrote: »

No what? It wasn't question, so it didn't require an answer.

I assume he meant "no" to the thread title...

Time for bed perhaps?

Nailz

Perhaps your right, a few Jagerbombs must have went to me head aswell...

Zaph

Nunu wrote: »

Bottom line is the cream of the crop will always rise to the top no matter what the format, so why not give the lesser teams a better chance at the jackpot in round 3?

Because for the lesser teams the FA Cup isn't just all about the money, it's the glory of a cup run they love, especially if they get drawn against a big team. Even though they would have made a load of money against Liverpool, I'm sure Havant would have been just as happy playing that game for free. Seeding the competition would mean that the 4th round would most likely have at least 25 Premier League and Championship sides in it. There's already the League Cup if all anybody's interested in doing is eliminating the non-league clubs.

Bubs101

Nunu wrote: »

Good counter argument Bubs.

Edit: after reading your post again I don't agree with the last line...Say in round 3 all the premier league clubs draw each other and then again in round 4 that would leave you with 5 top flight clubs in Round 5. Now there is no way that sort of scenario would not devalue the competition.

Bottom line is the cream of the crop will always rise to the top no matter what the format, so why not give the lesser teams a better chance at the jackpot in round 3?

Well for starters, all the Premier League clubs would never draw each other in one round and certainly wouldn't twice. I know that it could technically happen but the odds are so small it's not worth counting as a serious argument and even if it did, when Wycombe got to the semis and a guy who got his job from an ad on teletext scored a goal did it devalue the competition? No, it added to it's alure, the romantacism of the FA cup which is what sets it apart from other seeded cups like the La Coppa d'Italia and the Copa Del Rey which have virtually no value.

I also think that you have misplaced the value of the FA cup. Sure you can get a big payday and get Manchester United at Old Trafford but the chances are that if your not in the top half of the premiership your going to lose every time. So whereas you will get one big payday (and I severly doubt there are even many of those left, after all, Mansfields ground was half empty and they hosted a Premiership team that will probably finish from 10 to 15. In reality there are 4 jackpot games, maybe 7 if you include,Spurs Everton and City) if you can get to the final you will probably get a Uefa Cup spot (assuming one of the finalists is a big 4 team) which is far more lucrative than one big gate. That is the real jackpot and seeding would lessen the chance of a small team getting it. Keep in mind, the FA cup is the real prize,not a day on the BBC

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

Nunu

Bubs101 wrote: »

No, it added to it's alure, the romantacism of the FA cup which is what sets it apart from other seeded cups like the La Coppa d'Italia and the Copa Del Rey which have virtually no value.

I can assure you the Copa del Rey is just as important in Spain as the FA Cup is in England and is valued by all the big clubs.

Nunu

Zaph wrote: »

Because for the lesser teams the FA Cup isn't just all about the money, it's the glory of a cup run they love, especially if they get drawn against a big team. Even though they would have made a load of money against Liverpool, I'm sure Havant would have been just as happy playing that game for free. Seeding the competition would mean that the 4th round would most likely have at least 25 Premier League and Championship sides in it. There's already the League Cup if all anybody's interested in doing is eliminating the non-league clubs.

You do realise the hilarity of that statement?:D

Zaph

Nunu wrote: »

You do realise the hilarity of that statement?:D

Well yeah, I know that the bigger clubs don't give a crap about the League Cup any more, but they're still the ones that win it every year. The point I was trying to make was that there's already a competition that excludes the non-league sides and that the smaller league clubs don't have much of a chance in, and consequently is devoid of any of the "romance" that's attached to the FA Cup. Do we need a second competition like that?

Nunu

Zaph wrote: »

Well yeah, I know that the bigger clubs don't give a crap about the League Cup any more, but they're still the ones that win it every year. The point I was trying to make was that there's already a competition that excludes the non-league sides and that the smaller league clubs don't have much of a chance in, and consequently is devoid of any of the "romance" that's attached to the FA Cup. Do we need a second competition like that?

Oh right. I thought you were saying the non league sides get eliminated from the League cup early on because of seeding. You could see why I'd laugh at that because as you said there are no non league teams in it.

Bubs101

Nunu wrote: »

I can assure you the Copa del Rey is just as important in Spain as the FA Cup is in England and is valued by all the big clubs.

Is that why there are so many Barca - Real finals . NO domestic cup is valued as highly as the FA cup. Fact

redspider

I dont think there should be any more seeding than there currently is (allowing the bigger clubs to enter at the 3rd round is already seeding!).

What I would like to see are home and away 2-legged ties. That would guarantee a big pay day for all the small clubs, and would also mean the big teams have to play at the stadia where grassroots football is played. It also reduces the lucky aspect in terms of the draw, to some extent.

But the league cup should be abolished. There are no major leagues that have two cup competitions. It defies any logic, sporting or business-wise.

redspider

mike65

League Cup is important revenue for the Nationwide League I think.

Mike.

PHB

I think the issue is that with Europe, does England really need a cup competition anymore? IMO there is no way that anybody in the Champions League should be playing in the League Cup, I think its stupid. But then again, if you took them out, it would greatly reduce interest for the league cup. At this stage, the top 4 are so strong that its pretty much impossible to see one of them not winning it. Because of this, the rest of the league are asking whats the point in playing in it?
The FA Cup is certainly losing its romance.

The League cup is doing better, because two of the big teams play youth sides, one plays somewhat weakened teams (Liverpool) and one plays a full strength team. As such, there's a much better chance for the rest of the clubs to actually win it.

OPENROAD

PHB wrote: »

I think the issue is that with Europe, does England really need a cup competition anymore? IMO there is no way that anybody in the Champions League should be playing in the League Cup, I think its stupid. But then again, if you took them out, it would greatly reduce interest for the league cup. At this stage, the top 4 are so strong that its pretty much impossible to see one of them not winning it. Because of this, the rest of the league are asking whats the point in playing in it?
The FA Cup is certainly losing its romance.

.

Are you serious re FA Cup, it is still a great English tradition that still means a great deal to supporters. I certainly want to win it, FA Cup final day is still a great day out for supporters, Abide with me etc... just a special day for supporters. As for the romace of the cup, just look at the faces of the people at Anfield on Saturday.

As for the League cup, well for us it has worked out great the last few years a chance to see the kids and fringe players, and again the final is a great day out.

Zaph

redspider wrote: »

But the league cup should be abolished. There are no major leagues that have two cup competitions.

France does and Portugal are introducing a League Cup competition this season.

astrofool

They are also two of the fringe leagues where not as many teams would compete in Europe. The League cup not including CL teams would be a good idea (but take a few seasons to catch up, or a better idea, imo, change the two legged ties to one match at a neutral ground.