The majority DO NOT believe Ahern

guinnessdrinker

I'm amazed that more and more information is coming from the tribunal every time Bertie appears at it.

But the thing that gets me is, if it turns out Ahern is corrupt then what is it going to say about the politicians that are backing him 100% now?

Is the spin going to be "ok, he recieved some money but sure aren't they all like that". Hopefully this won't be the case as it tars all politicans with the same brush, one bad egg etc.

This is not fair on the honest hard working politicans in the Dail (yes, I believe we do have some) from FF and all the other parties that do their best for their communities and for the country.

In saying all of that, if Ahern is proved to be innocent of any corruption allegations then those politicans that stood by him and defended him will have shown extreme loyality in the face of mounting pressure and should be commended, however, I have my own doubts.

El Stuntman

I don't think that any unbiased onlooker with any measure of intelligence can be convinced by the tales that Bertie and his team have been spinning.

the nub of the matter is that very large, unexplained sums of cash were washing through his bank account (and his famous safe) at a time when he was Minister for Finance. His stories about where he got these vast (and yes, they were huge) sums do not tally with the known evidence. He cannot furnish a tax clearance cert either (alone of the 166 TDs)

No amount of delaying tactics in the High Court, attacking the Tribunal or sending out Martin Mansergh to act like a maniac can hide this

He's an embarrassment and should resign - now. I don't really care who replaces him - Cowen seems to be the best bet.

is_that_so

kbannon wrote: »

Well it appears that John Gormless isn't too bothered by it: www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhojauojmhcw

The "Minister of FF Statements" sold his soul the day he convinced himself that the pragmatic implementation of Green policies at all costs would be enough to counter any negative perception about the movable ethics of the Green movement. As the tribunal is unlikely to report for some time he can just carry on with his "see no evil speak no evil" cant .

DrumSteve

as a minister for finance he really has to set the example for the rest of the country. i mean if he is gonna dodge his taxes what incentive is there for us to pay them? we wouldnt even have the luxury of a tribunal. fair enough he might of thought at the time that it was just a few quid to help him out( im sure at some point we've all got that) but he should have declared it. all this messing about and dodging answers and waiting 12 years to sort out loans is well... making him look like a liar. and as much as i would like to believe him (ive met him and he's a nice bloke) he should really just get all his **** out in the open if he is to retain any respect in the eyes of the people.

bazwin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nE5o79AOXAw

tech77

bazwin wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nE5o79AOXAw

One of the funniest things i've ever seen.
Tears in my eyes watching it.
Everyone should see this- post it up in Cool Vids in AH as well.

I love Dragon's Den and the unimpressed, puzzled, confused and bored looks on their faces at Bertie's guff was one of the funniest things i've ever seen.
Your man (Duncan Banatine?) throwing his head back was priceless.
It's so true though.
:D:D:D
ROFLMAO

stepbar

Where now for Bertie? I believe that his position is now untenable. I think he should do the honourable thing and step aside.

LostinBlanch

is_that_so wrote: »

The "Minister of FF Statements" sold his soul the day he convinced himself that the pragmatic implementation of Green policies at all costs would be enough to counter any negative perception about the movable ethics of the Green movement. As the tribunal is unlikely to report for some time he can just carry on with his "see no evil speak no evil" cant .

Well he may have a problem if I heard correctly on newstalk yesterday. Some journo was on explaining why the Greens were split on this. You know Gormley speaking like he's a PJ mara controlled glove puppet, and Dan Boyle saying Berties in a Tony Blair situation.
Apparently they're afraid of Bertie going too soon and leaving Cowen cosying up to Gilmore putting the Greens out in the cold.

Beelzebub

zippy 99 wrote: »

People who think Ahern was right in beating the system (his system I might add, funny that) need their heads looked at.

The system is corrupt to the core, i'll admit that.

What about these people who think he was right, stand up with the people who think he was wrong and demand a new system.

Do you ever get the feeling smug Ahern is laughing at the lot of us plebs?

He's laughing just like C.J. was but he ain't got no class...

Seth Brundle

stepbar wrote: »

Where now for Bertie? I believe that his position is now untenable. I think he should do the honourable thing and step aside.

I agree. However, its not up to us. The electorate had their chance. Now, its up to FF and sure don't they condone this kind of stuff?

LostinBlanch wrote: »

Well he may have a problem if I heard correctly on newstalk yesterday. Some journo was on explaining why the Greens were split on this. You know Gormley speaking like he's a PJ mara controlled glove puppet, and Dan Boyle saying Berties in a Tony Blair situation.
Apparently they're afraid of Bertie going too soon and leaving Cowen cosying up to Gilmore putting the Greens out in the cold.

Eamon Ryan was on the wireless last night and would not take sides but in reality took the same side as Gormley.

Beelzebub wrote: »

He's laughing just like C.J. was but he ain't got no class...

But its his down to earth-ness, poor diction, etc. that makes him so loveable and cuddly to all the dumb feckers who voted him in again!
In fairness, Enda Kenny doesn't have anywhere like the same level of charisma as Bertie! Gilmore may have but Labour aren't strong enough to take the Taoiseach role.

badge55

stepbar wrote: »

Where now for Bertie? I believe that his position is now untenable. I think he should do the honourable thing and step aside.

I like your idea that Bertie should do the honourable thing and step aside -- but one fatal flaw in that plan -- This prick aint got no honour --

Also just read all of this thread and still no one defending "dis man"

redspider

kbannon wrote: »

However, its not up to us. The electorate had their chance. Now, its up to FF and sure don't they condone this kind of stuff?

Yes, the electorate had their chance and blew it.

What riles me though is the way that many of these politicians are defending Bertie to the last with things like:
- the people have voted and have accepted it (implying that the people accept a wrong!)
- wait until the tribunal reports (sticking their head in the sand)
- it was a done thing in the times (so was gassing the Jews by the Nazi's, still doesnt make it acceptable)
- sure how many of us can remember those sums of money all those years ago (recanted by O'Cuiv)
- sure look what that man did for NI, isnt he great, why look at the past, lets look at his achievements (argumet is completely vacuous)

It will take a backlash from the grass-roots within FF to turn this around and the FF hierarchy, and probably an 80-20% one at that. That hasnt happened yet, and only will in time if it the tribunal keeps continuing to throw out new revelations.

Another way to accelerate Bertie's tarnished demise would be if Mahon were to make an interim report which lambasted him. ie: publish some findings. Then neither the Greens nor FFers could hide behind that line any more.


> read all of this thread and still no one defending "dis man"

No, no-one can defend the indefensible, apart from brass-necked and 'stupid' politicians who have grown up on telling half-truths and blatant lies, usually to save their own necks.

At the end of the day, its the people en masse that are stupid. They/we voted Bertie back in, they had the choice, and blew it. They've no-one to blame but themselves, the poor health service, etc, - take a look in the mirror and who did ye vote for? Million(s) voted for FF.

Cecelia Larkin received a "loan" of 30k from FF funds. Bertie is saying that until recently he was unaware she got such a loan. Yeah, right, pull the other one, there are bells on it. If there is anyone in the country that actually believes that line, really believes that line (ie: not a politician who is pretending that they believe that line) then we have doctors that can sort you out.

And dont expect the Revenue to be the 'police' on this. Wasnt it they that let off Dunnes Stores millions of tax after CJ set up a meeting between Ben and the head of Revenue? They are complicit by their decisions in some of the shenanigans.

There are some facts. That shopping centre in Athlone got special tax treatment designation. Bertie assigned it as such on his last day in office.

We are all suffering from 'Bertie-fatigue'. He wont go. He knows he should go.

Redspider

El Stuntman

good post red spider

Timmy Dooley (Clare FF TD) said on Newstalk this morning that he believes all of the evidence that Bert has given to Mahon

oh dear

El Stuntman

Green Ink's blog summarises this thread beautifully

Tea drinker

redspider wrote: »

.....
It will take a backlash from the grass-roots within FF to turn this around and the FF hierarchy, and probably an 80-20% one at that. That hasnt happened yet, and only will in time if it the tribunal keeps continuing to throw out new revelations.

> read all of this thread and still no one defending "dis man"

No, no-one can defend the indefensible, apart from brass-necked and 'stupid' politicians who have grown up on telling half-truths and blatant lies, usually to save their own necks.

At the end of the day, its the people en masse that are stupid. They/we voted Bertie back in, they had the choice, and blew it. They've no-one to blame but themselves, the poor health service, etc, - take a look in the mirror and who did ye vote for? Million(s) voted for FF.

Cecelia Larkin received a "loan" of 30k from FF funds. Bertie is saying that until recently he was unaware she got such a loan. Yeah, right, pull the other one, there are bells on it. If there is anyone in the country that actually believes that line, really believes that line (ie: not a politician who is pretending that they believe that line) then we have doctors that can sort you out.

And dont expect the Revenue to be the 'police' on this. Wasnt it they that let off Dunnes Stores millions of tax after CJ set up a meeting between Ben and the head of Revenue? They are complicit by their decisions in some of the shenanigans.

There are some facts. That shopping centre in Athlone got special tax treatment designation. Bertie assigned it as such on his last day in office.

We are all suffering from 'Bertie-fatigue'. He wont go. He knows he should go.

Redspider

Absolutely
While we may get a chance to change the cute hoors out after the election, we still should have a system of checks and balances in place to get us through the electoral term. This would be in the form of the government bodies e.g. standards of public office and the Rev commissioners. This is apart from expecting the coalition partners to have some standards. I hope there behaviour is remembered. As I see it the opposition is doing an "ok" job, but to overcome the corruption at all levels of Gov we need something extraordinary. It seems the tax office is taking a very strange route with this. I don't know of any citizen who is given this sort of leeway. I know for sure that Tax officials have been told in the past to lay off the big guys in construction. I would guess similar "looking after the party officials" type behaviour is going on with Mr A.
The only people who can protect us are the Gov themselves. Who will do it? Who is going to be a whistleblower?

DancesWithChimp

RE: title of this thread

I seriously doubt that Ahern believes Ahern...

Seth Brundle

Well his two brothers were interviewed separately by Newstalk today and both were spouting the same shíte about it all being a witchunt!

unkel

The one thing that I can't get over is that clearly corrupt politicians get re-elected time and time again. Ireland is a true democracy, there's no issue with rigging election outcomes like in banana republics in Africa or South America. I'm not mentioning any names. Politicians found out to be corrupt. Even convicted in court, or lost libel cases. And still they are democratically elected. That's the thing I can not get my head around

Do people think these corrupt leaders are better than others? Is Ireland the only country of the EU (15) where this kinda corruption / politics can thrive? No way a government leader in Germany or the UK would politically survive this, surely?

This guy in Tipperary - clearly as corrupt as can be and he is still the most popular politician in his county?

Red Alert

I think in Ireland the electorate voted him under the impression he was corrupt. They thought they'd miss their 2.4 jobs in rent-a-multinational otherwise. And Bertie could deliever, so to hell with morality and integrity. :eek:

guinnessdrinker

Red Alert wrote: »

I think in Ireland the electorate voted him under the impression he was corrupt. They thought they'd miss their 2.4 jobs in rent-a-multinational otherwise. And Bertie could deliever, so to hell with morality and integrity. :eek:

Well in fairness he was only elected in one constituency, not everyone in FF should be labeled as corrupt.

STEVO B

guinnessdrinker wrote: »

Well in fairness he was only elected in one constituency, not everyone in FF should be labeled as corrupt.

Surley they follow their leaders example on such matters

He makes me sick, man of the people wha? Dont kid yourselves

Red Alert

We rightly criticised people who weren't involved in abuse for standing by and letting it happen in church and other institutions. Let the honest people if any in FF do the decent thing, because they obviously are in fear if Ahern is toppled. I'd love to know why.

eoin5

I hate our celeb politicians hanging on for dear life with their charming personalities. From 1998 - 2002 bertie spent over 95,000 of our monies on makeup. I want a new taoiseach.

STEVO B

eoin5 wrote: »

I hate our celeb politicians hanging on for dear life with their charming personalities. From 1998 - 2002 bertie spent over 95,000 of our monies on makeup. I want a new taoiseach.

If thats the case I wouldnt like to see him without it.

guinnessdrinker

STEVO B wrote: »

If thats the case I wouldnt like to see him without it.

Lol, never thought about it like that before :eek:

redspider

unkel wrote: »

The one thing that I can't get over is that clearly corrupt politicians get re-elected time and time again. Politicians found out to be corrupt. And still they are democratically elected. That's the thing I can not get my head around. Do people think these corrupt leaders are better than others?

Yes, you are right, this is a major problem and even defies the logic of a 4-year-old!

And this is the sub-text to the tribunal(s) - the people/electorate do not just care enough, or are not smart enough to care, ironically about themselves, because corrupt behaviour sends out signals and establishes a culture of neglect and under-performance which hits people in the long run in bad decision making and poor services. This is one of the underlying causes of our problems in Ireland, and for example makes the HSE a complete joke of a system.

However, the unwashed electorate voter does not realise that when they vote for Mr A or Mr L, or even someone of the same party, that they are condoning that same action, and that the very same voter could be (and in all probability is on average) the person who dies, yes actually dies, because of the inefficient health service they are getting. They do not realise that their voter action is what is delivering the government of the country on an ongoing basis, year after year. We reap what we sow. We get the results of the behaviour that we allow.

Jesus, (who I have no affiliations with), once coined the apt phrase: "forgive them, for they know not what they do". This can be readily applied to the average Irish voter, as lemming after lemming they give their vote to the "lemming-crusher-machine-handler" and even thank them for doing so and they walk right into it time and time again. Only when the sh.it is hitting the proverbial fan do the people actually complain on Joe Duffy or Newstalk or similar, and the reality is that the problems are seen on a daily basis by those involved. In fact they are predictable and planned for. Poor services are endemic across the board - you name it, its below par.

People have no-one to blame but themselves, and we are talking about endemic attitudes in place here.

The poor running of this country is also another sub-text to the emmigration that was seen down through the years, in the 50's/60's and the 80's/early 90's. People got out because the country was craply ran. People only came back in the meantime or new nationalities arrived because of the money and bonanza, not because that they thought things have changed fundamentally in how things are ran.

We are still left with the same underlying problems, and the symptoms are playing out on a daily basis in the Mahon Tribunal. How any Minsiter or backbencher with any backbone did not immediately remove themselves from the government whip when hearing any one of the many revealations teased out unwillingly at the Mahon Tribunal, is beyond any rational thought.

What a circus .... what a joke ....

Redspider

STEVO B

unkel wrote: »

The one thing that I can't get over is that clearly corrupt politicians get re-elected time and time again. Ireland is a true democracy, there's no issue with rigging election outcomes like in banana republics in Africa or South America. I'm not mentioning any names. Politicians found out to be corrupt. Even convicted in court, or lost libel cases. And still they are democratically elected. That's the thing I can not get my head around

Do people think these corrupt leaders are better than others? Is Ireland the only country of the EU (15) where this kinda corruption / politics can thrive? No way a government leader in Germany or the UK would politically survive this, surely?

This guy in Tipperary - clearly as corrupt as can be and he is still the most popular politician in his county?

Make me wonder if we are living in a 'democracy' at all.