Could the US take China as they did Iraq in a conventional war

phil_w2@hotmail

the U.S would just rearm the japs and let them have another go. they would have taken the chinese in WW2 if they didnt have a go at the americans at the same time. just like hitler would have won if he waited to invade russia and finished off the brits. patience was a virtue they did not have in these situations as was propper planning and communication between axis powers that would have sealed victory i believe.

But everyone assumes america would invade china as they have a bit of a habit of invasions of late. what if china invaded the u.s? the question was who would win after all in a war, it didnt mention where!!

would the "rules" of war that the u.s tries to play by apply to the chinese who have a history of slaughtering its own population? - civilian slaughter like the old days etc to crush uprisings work better than the G&y "hearts and minds" media orientated campaign as lets face it the romans didnt have to deal with this kind of post war bullsh/t they just went in and killed everyone or enslaved them/bred then out as is the most efficient and less costly option.

If the chinese invaded the u.s then i think it would revert to a scramble for victory with no rules for the chinese as if they lost they would get nuked to f###ing hell afterwards so the gloves would be off on U.S soil with a crowd attracting UFC of war going on.

secondly i really doubt the u.s would nuke its own lands to stop the invading hoards of chinese. this cancels out the nuke question on the U.S side a bit but also this is where the numbers would come in. america cannot possibly sent is 2 million soldiers to take china but the chinese numbers landing in america backed up by the fact that the chinese could easily just send 50 mill bloodthirsty axe wielding conscripts to invade a lot easier than the americans could (media uproar, hippies, 60% obeisty etc) that and nuke major population centers like L.A and New York and you would cut the main resistance in half.

So, in this scenario i reckon we'd have a couple new interesting games for the xbox 360 and ps3 for summer (Halo 4 maybe??) although the wii would take the christmas market after everyone runs out of bullets and we have to all fight with sticks!!!!

irishsurfer

Christ, should this be in Walter Mitty Section

Manic Moran

what if china invaded the u.s?

How? Their ability to invade Taiwan is open to question, and that's right next door.

NTM

Fenian

I live in Hong Kong,so I think I can throw my two cents in when it comes to the minds of the people.

The thought of PLA regiments surrendering to a foriegn army is laughable. Chinese people (esp. those in Hunan province) are very distrustful of outsiders.

Any army (esp. a white one) that dared violate Chinese territory would rise the whole population. All the factories that are now making cars and cuddly toys would be transformed into a huge war machine.

The CCP would also have no problem arming the people because the militias that would be formed would be controlled by loyal party cadres.

The upsurge of patriotic feeling would be massive. People in the West think that most of the population are distrustful of the government. That is total bollocks. The people have no reason to distrust the CCP because the CCP has brought China out of the bad ole days and made China a major international player.

The only way for an army,the US or otherwise, to defeat the Chinese would be to wipe out the Chinese people, and the Chinese would take a fair few foriegners with them.

phil_w2@hotmail

definitely

And the chinese could take tiawan if they didnt have the americans sabre rattling about it. They would have been in there 5 years ago only for the U.S.

But its a bluff and the chinese will call it sooner rather than later. It would be a great victory for the CCP in china to finally crush the old enemy once and for all as tiawan is the safe haven for the exiled leaders from the war.

Then after getting a taste for victory it will start to get nasty - nostradamus 4:57

I still say they could take the U.S on U.S soil... they eat their own kids for christ sake!!!

http://www.heretical.com/cannibal/china.html

Tragedy

Until they have a vastly superior blue water fleet, the chances of them invading USA is quite quite slim.

the_syco

Cato wrote: »

American technology

"Made in China"

=-=

If the USA went against China, they would have to go in with a reason. No reason, and the Chinese would go up against them. Oh, and Russia may take the invasion the wrong way, and "help" their Chinese friends out.

Cato

the_syco wrote: »

"Made in China"

=-=

If the USA went against China, they would have to go in with a reason. No reason, and the Chinese would go up against them. Oh, and Russia may take the invasion the wrong way, and "help" their Chinese friends out.

I thought most arms/amunition were produced in the US? what sense would it be to have a foreign maybe future enemy produce your arms? i could be wrong though...

Barlow07

MooseJam wrote: »

What do you think folks could the US invade and take red China in a conventional war

NO chance:)

Offalycool

I found this the other day. Its an article concerned with the future mechanisation of war. It would seem the US intends to deal with its lack of personnel in the future. Such a situation may make other countries uneasy forcing there hand at a pre-emptive strike.
http://www.newstatesman.com/200606120018

Manic Moran

And the chinese could take tiawan if they didnt have the americans sabre rattling about it

You still have the question of 'with what'?

Having a gazillion man Army is pretty irrelevant if you don't have the amphibious assault capability to move them. The PLAN is surprisingly short of landing ships. Granted, the Chinese are looking to fix this, but they're not there yet.

NTM

Kaiser_Sma

I though this argument was based on invasion. But i guess not.

If the americnas just wanted to punish china, they could easily defeat their navy and eventually defeat their airforce, the could cut of chinas trade it's foreign investments, it's resources, destroy it's infrastructure and never have to set foot on china. It's perfectly possible for the US to wage a war completly by the air, if the object is destruction and not specifically tactical. It did say in the topic "in a conventional war" but theres no gaurnetee that the chinese wouldn't use missles in such an event.

If the US wanted to hurt china, as a number of economists have stated, a military engagement isn't even necisary, since chinese investment is so heavily tied up in the US.

Also the Americans could possibly orchestrate cold war style proxy wars. While the majority of the chinese population is seemingly deeply nationalistic, there are a number of ethnic diasporas around the country that are not.

phil_w2@hotmail

Manic Moran wrote: »

You still have the question of 'with what'?

Having a gazillion man Army is pretty irrelevant if you don't have the amphibious assault capability to move them. The PLAN is surprisingly short of landing ships. Granted, the Chinese are looking to fix this, but they're not there yet.

NTM

well it wouldnt take so long to buils ships if they wanted.

look at how they work at the mo. the americans took 50 years to build their current road network... the chinese have done the equivilant if you measure it in road distance and cement used ... in 5 years!!

the americans when they entered world war 2 were building individual merchant ships in 5 days each!!! thats not a lie or an exageration. a population with a will can do a lot in a short time. i'm sure the CCP could "manufacture" an attack by tiawan just like sep 11 and use it as a pretext for getting the population fired up. all they need is the desire and 1 billion people could do a lot.

a massive navy is about 2 years away if they really wanted it. an enemy or threat to a way of life can be percieved a lot sooner than that. look at how george bush took afganistan and iraq on speculation and ghost stories. i'm sure its not beyond the CCP to do something similar.

besides they have about 2000 small to medium subs that they could pack with men and run aground... talk about a surprise assault. plus i'm sure the 4000 fighter planes they have would wipe out any hard targets and deter even the 2000 strong U.S airforce of which only about 25% are in the pacific.

Tenger

phil_w2@hotmail wrote: »

the americans when they entered world war 2 were building individual merchant ships in 5 days each!!! ...............................a population with a will can do a lot in a short time. ....................all they need is the desire and 1 billion people could do a lot.

a massive navy is about 2 years away............... an enemy or threat to a way of life can be percieved ..... look at how george bush took afganistan and iraq on speculation and ghost stories. i'm sure its not beyond the CCP to do something similar.

besides they have about 2000 small to medium subs that they could pack with men and run aground... talk about a surprise assault. plus i'm sure the 4000 fighter planes they have would wipe out any hard targets and deter even the 2000 strong U.S airforce of which only about 25% are in the pacific.

I agree with Funan concerning the patriotism of the Chinese poulation. Massive support would be the outcome of a US invasion. The US would be under constatn attack from citizen militias. The Chinese would fight.

The Chinese have a large coastal fleet and many subs. However these have no chance of making it to the US. Crossing the pacific under satellite and aerial scrutiny is close to suicidal. Remember that the best (3-4) Chinese subs are ex Soviet Alfas which are comparable to early Los Angeles class boats. With the American SOSUS system these would be overheard and sunk. And purely landing troops from subs would have little effect unless you had heavy armour and mechanised support close behind them.
The PLAN have 2 missile subs neither of which is operarational. The PLAN also have an ex Soviet Kiev class aircraft carrier/aviation cruiser(the Riga). This is being used as the prototype/trainer for 2 new carriers for the PLAN.

Concerning building a fleet: The Chinese currently do not have the ability to mass produce modern and capable naval vessels. In 10-20 years time this may very well be a different situation. The boats (Liberty ships) produced in WWII were very basic,all they did was steam across the Atlantic. The Chinese need quality naval vessels to protect these boats. In theory 1-2 US subs could take out 10 times their numbers of simple transport vessel if not properly protected.

Air warfare: "4000 fighter planes" of dubious quality (copies of Mig21/Mig25/Mig29/Su27) and training with no AWACs system versus 1000 fighters of proven quality (F15/F16/F18),high levels of training,beyond visual sight AA missiles plus well rehearsed airborne control aircraft. The US can also re-activate some of its (recently) mothballed F14 fleet.

phil_w2@hotmail

well we were just talking about invading tiawan first. i honestly do not beliee that they could invade america with what they have.... although something has to be said for ambition and determination playing a part.

a couple of hundred underwater nukes would clear a path through any navy for an invasion fleet... i think about this way too much...

the_syco

phil_w2@hotmail wrote: »

besides they have about 2000 small to medium subs that they could pack with men and run aground... talk about a surprise assault. plus i'm sure the 4000 fighter planes they have would wipe out any hard targets and deter even the 2000 strong U.S airforce of which only about 25% are in the pacific.

The USA subs could launch some tomahawks, wipe out some of the Chinese air bases, and the Stealth bombers could destroy the rest. That's easy, though.

The hard bit is wiping out enough Chinese so they can't attack back, but keep enough of them alive so that they can become "good citizens".

The F22 that the USAF has built could actually be used. The A10 Warthogs could help keep anything bullet-ridden.

Tenger

phil_w2@hotmail wrote: »

well it wouldnt take so long to buils ships if they wanted...................

a massive navy is about 2 years away if they really wanted it............................

besides they have about 2000 small to medium subs that they could pack with men and run aground....

An update on the status of the PLAN sub fleet:

They are currently building nuclear powered attack subs. The plan is for 4 6500t Shang class to be added to the 5 5000t Han class by 2010. The US Los Angeles class attack subs are 6000t displacement and the US have 23 of them baswed in the Pacific. The Han are not a big threat to US fleets as they can be found and traced 'relatively easily'. The Shang class are comparable to Soviet Victor IIs which are more of a threat but are still lagging behind current us capabilities. According to wikipedis they have 2 missile boats. I have read elsewhere that one of these is no longer seaworthy due reactor difficulties.

The PLAN has a number of Soviet Kilo class diesel electric attack subs which are very quiet and would cause probelms for the US in a conflict. In the book Nimitz class bt Patrick Robinson a Kilo stays on the bottom while a carrier group passes overhead and ambushes it with a nuke torpedo.

elvis jaffacake

Bramble wrote: »

An update on the status of the PLAN sub fleet:

They are currently building nuclear powered attack subs. The plan is for 4 6500t Shang class to be added to the 5 5000t Han class by 2010. The US Los Angeles class attack subs are 6000t displacement and the US have 23 of them baswed in the Pacific. The Han are not a big threat to US fleets as they can be found and traced 'relatively easily'. The Shang class are comparable to Soviet Victor IIs which are more of a threat but are still lagging behind current us capabilities. According to wikipedis they have 2 missile boats. I have read elsewhere that one of these is no longer seaworthy due reactor difficulties.

The PLAN has a number of Soviet Kilo class diesel electric attack subs which are very quiet and would cause probelms for the US in a conflict. In the book Nimitz class bt Patrick Robinson a Kilo stays on the bottom while a carrier group passes overhead and ambushes it with a nuke torpedo.

The Xia class, although there was only ever one, apparently it was as close to a disaster as you could get and still sail, noisy, and something of a cursed ship reports say she had numerous mishaps and injured/dead crew, the septics called here the "boom boomer" because she was so noisy and easy to track, they have a project for 3 new SSBN's to replace her, the Russians have helped....which is nice

http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/sub/type094jin.asp

the Xia replacement the "Jin" class

SHH

The Chinese army is the biggest and one of the best equipped in the world. Even if they did just bomb it to **** out of the cities that would just make occupying it harder. Chinese people would just grow to hate the Yanks and resistance groups would flourish. Plus for an invasion to work they need the support of the regular people, that's the mistake the Americans made with Iraq and Cuba.