Fox hunting poll in todays Irish Times

togster

cowzerp wrote: »

But there is a guarantee that it will be painful with dogs ripping it apart, where a clean bullet shot will make it very quick and less painfull.

Yet again you have missed the point of my post.

Bendihorse

~Thalia~ wrote: »

Christ, did you require special training to become so patronising or does it just come naturally? *Awaits ignore*

You are making a lot of assumptions that any of the anti fox hunter contributors to this thread are not aware of hunts, have never been to a hunt or know nothing about it. For what it is worth you are wrong.

I wasn't being patronising at all, If someone is new to hunting - as i was too at a stage, someone had to explain to me how the thing worked. What i meant about Togster being an experience hunts man and horse person, that he may have used horsy 'jargin' that Helena, and other people that are new to the thing do not understand. I guess i was putting it in lay mans terms so everyone can understand. No need to be so defencive.

Also, I did not make assumptions that any of the 'anti fox hunter' contributors to this thread were 'not aware of hunts, have never been to a hunt or know nothing about it' or any thing of the sort for that matter.

I asked that anyone that DIDN'T have experience of it to go out and see it for themselves and make their own minds up, and not be relying on second hand information from media and propaganda.

If Helena feels patronised, then i apologise to her but i dont think she will as it was not intended that way at all.

I think you may be angry because you realise that iv made valid points here and expressed them without gettin drawn into conflict and heated debate with other people.

Tell me your experience of hunts, im open to everyones side of the story as long as its valid and not emotive drivel. I dont expect everyone to agree with me either, im just tellin my side of the story. I dont know why this offends you so much.

peasant

togster

I have no doubt that a solitary hound (or one with a few minutes headstart from the pack) can provide a quick and "clean" death for the fox if it's skilled and experienced enough and knows where and when to place that bite.

An excited, highly agitated, squabbling, adrenalin pumped unruly mass of a pack on the other hand can't ...and that's my point. Especially so as the pack is what the foxhunt is all about.

You may well have seen that solitary hound performing the quick, clean kill ...but I bet you, you also have witnessed hunts were it all went terribly wrong for the fox and it ended up in bloody bits, still squealing and writhing about (or possibly even standing its ground and fighting back) for ages until finally one hound got a proper hold of it and finished it.

It wasn't me!

You're suggesting that a pack is unruly, when it's an immensely complex network of relationships and hierarchical chains. The lead hound makes the kill, then other dogs may attack, that's the way pack animals kill. You seem to keep ignoring that this works in a certain way.

peasant

It wasn't me! wrote: »

You're suggesting that a pack is unruly...

Indeed I am ...the video bet is still open

It wasn't me!

To suggest such is to ignore animal behaviour patterns entirely. Just because it looks unruly to you doesn't mean it is such.

peasant

You read too much Jack London

It wasn't me!

Not really, animal behaviour is well established. Even among a few domestic dogs, a strong sense of hierarchy is visible.

peasant

Oh, is it now ?

I must tell my dogs that

It wasn't me!

Good good, best that they know their nature.

peasant

Show me a foxhound pack that kills according to hirarchy (and not on a first come, first "serve" basis) ...the video challenge still stands.

20-50 foxhounds is not a "pack" (i.e something with a hirarchy similar to a wolf pack) it's a rabble at best. The first to get the scent leads the hunt and the first to reach the fox makes the kill ...and as there usually are several "firsts" reaching the fox simultaneously, the kill is messy ..the fox suffers ..the hunters cheer.

Now stop trying to tell me I know nothing about dog behaviour ...

It wasn't me!

I disagree entirely. Just because it looks sloppy, doesn't mean it is. To analogise, a battle may look chaotic and messy, with no clear patterns, but there are countless tactical ploys, feints and charges going on at a given time that one might not necessarily spot just by watching a battle.

AckwelFoley

Even among a few domestic dogs, a strong sense of hierarchy is visible

peasant wrote: »

Oh, is it now ?

I must tell my dogs that

You dont know very much about dogs do you?

If you know as little as i suspect, i suggest you stop feeding your dog Heads of Cabbage washed down with motor oil.

arybvtcw0eolkf

BryanL wrote: »

of course hounds don't form a orderly que when meeting the fox but they've usually become strung out in the hunt. The hunting inquiry in England still found that death for the fox took 80 milli seconds from hounds and that the average hunt lasted less than 20 minutes!!! not the fairy tales some would ask you to believe.

Rubbish.

I'll say this, and guys I am sensitive to the anti-hunt lads feelings. But I'd love to believe that even I could kill a fox that quick with a bullet, and even with a head shot I can't believe death is that quick.

But you guys get stuck back into each other, don't let me spoil the fun.

peasant

It wasn't me! wrote: »

I disagree entirely. Just because it looks sloppy, doesn't mean it is. To analogise, a battle may look chaotic and messy, with no clear patterns, but there are countless tactical ploys, feints and charges going on at a given time that one might not necessarily spot just by watching a battle.

Next you will tell me that foxhounds wear shoulder pads, displaying their rank

snyper wrote: »

You dont know very much about dogs do you?

If you know as little as i suspect, i suggest you stop feeding your dog Heads of Cabbage washed down with motor oil.

I suggest you and it wasn't him read this forum a bit more ...

I'm tired, im going to bed ...the video challenge still stands

AckwelFoley

Pesant, educate yourself a little on dogs..

Heres a start.

http://www.italian-greyhound.net/packbehave.htm

peasant

Mairt wrote: »

Rubbish.

I'll say this, and guys I am sensitive to the anti-hunt lads feelings. But I'd love to believe that even I could kill a fox that quick with a bullet, and even with a head shot I can't believe death is that quick.

But you guys get stuck back into each other, don't let me spoil the fun.

Thanks Mairt

always nice to be talking to someone who actually knows their stuff ...for a change

peasant

snyper wrote: »

Pesant, educate yourself a little on dogs..

Heres a start.

http://www.italian-greyhound.net/packbehave.htm

old hat

get with the times

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055139999

togster

Peasant you have done very little other than try and provoke people here. But that is neither here nor there.

I have told you what the lead hound is and how that works. For you to suggest there isn't a system of hierarchy in a pack of dogs is ridiculous. We have 3 pets dogs at home and there is a hierarchy in this too.

Like snyper said educate yourself on the basics. If you don't know that a system of hierarchy exsists in packs of dogs well then any other argunment you make hold slittle merit.

And stop trying to provoke people, its childish and make you look like you have very little knowledge of what you are talking about.

togster

peasant wrote: »

old hat

get with the times

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055139999

Are you seriously suggesting that hounds do not have a pack mentality? They are born in to the pack.

peasant

So now it's my problem that you still believe in the big, bad wolf with its strict alpha to omega pecking order, when it's long since proven that that model is wrong and never applied to dogs in the first place ?

I repeat ..there is no pecking order at the kill. Whosoever gets the first chance, takes the first attempt and the rest falls in afterwards as they arrive.

In a small group or "pack" that makes no difference, because it's only the end result that counts ...getting the prey.

Wolves in the wild would starve if they always waited for the alpha to make the kill.

The problem with a foxhunting pack is its size and there is always a chance for several dogs to arrive at the prey at the same time. Then there is jostling about and every dog takes a bit out of that part of fox that it can reach ..resulting in a cruel and very painful end of the fox as its torn to pieces alive.

Yes I got narky last night ...because this simply isn't an informed debate anymore.

Foxhunting is cruel and archaic and like someone said very early in this thread it will go the way bear baiting went.

But you lot are so enamoured with this cruel and archaic hobby of yours that you blindly defend it to last bit and loose every argument along the way.

Foxhunting is ineffective as a form of population control ..you get more kills by shooting

Foxhunting is cruel, as there is always the chance that the fox will be torn to pieces insted of dying a clean, quick death.(Or you may even dig it out even though that's supposedly not happening any more)

It is also cruel because you take enjoyment out of watching an animal fight for its life and you make that the basis of a social occasion while "a good day out" could easily be achived in a different way.

Several people (not just me) have made these arguments and they all stand.

Each of these arguments alone should be enough to justify a ban of foxhunting ...yet you keep coming back over and over with misinformation, propanganda and outdated half-knowledge trying to defend a practise that is indefencible.

I understand that you will not agree to a foxhunting ban, because it's what you love doing (for some perverse reason or another) but at least have the good grace and stop arguing moot points and just quietly go away.


On a more personal note:
I went into this thread as an opponent of foxhunting but a supporter of hunting and hunters, but having seen some of the condescension, belligerance and ignorance with which you argue, I might have to reconsider my position of giving all hunters the benefit of the doubt ...you foxhunters really are something else.


As was to be expected, this thread has achieved nothing of worth, as you foxhunters simply will not change your ways of thinking and keep clinging to your outdated practices.

But it has convinced me personally of one thing:
Foxhunting definetly has to be banned (by some higher authority) because I wouldn't trust you lot anymore with self imposed regulations ...you say digging out and using the terriers doesn't happen anymore ...I don't believe you anymore. With your often ridicoulus arguments and defences you have lost my respect and all credibility.

I will now go and see what I can actively do and who I can support to put a quick end to this practise ...you have shoved me off the fence and got my lazy arse in gear.



And this really was my last post on this thread.

cowzerp

togster wrote: »

I have told you what the lead hound is and how that works. For you to suggest there isn't a system of hierarchy in a pack of dogs is ridiculous. We have 3 pets dogs at home and there is a hierarchy in this too.
.

Dogs do have a hierachy but they dont wait for the top dog to make the kill, its clear they all just get stuck in, the fastest and nearest will be 1st to get there teeth into the poor fox, and it could be its tail, ribs anywhere, they will try for neck but its not that simple!

togster

Foxhunting won't get banned. Come back to me in 5 years time when we are still hunting.

Like you Peasant this thread has also reinforced some previous notions i had.

That anti's are fanatics. As long as this element exsists in your "cause" you will never be taken seriously. Any group who slices a horses legs in the name of animal rights has a lot to answer for.

Or anyone who uses pepper spray on children on ponies needs to get their priorities right.

So this too is my last post on this thread.

I will hunt untill the day i die. Do you really think if a ban is implemented
i will stop hunting?

cowzerp

togster wrote: »

Foxhunting won't get banned. Come back to me in 5 years time when we are still hunting.

That anti's are fanatics. As long as this element exsists in your "cause" you will never be taken seriously. Any group who slices a horses legs in the name of animal rights has a lot to answer for.

Or anyone who uses pepper spray on children on ponies needs to get their priorities right.

who has been protesting at the fox hunts on this board? i never have and would never support other animals been hurt to make a point, this may have happened but your tarring us with this fanatical brush because we dont agree with fox hunting with dogs.

togster wrote: »

So this too is my last post on this thread.

Thanks be to god. Bet its not!!!

togster wrote: »

I will hunt untill the day i die. Do you really think if a ban is implemented
i will stop hunting?

So you have no problem breaking the law, that is clear, im not suprised at all-someone who is so into harming animals hardly has high morals.

AckwelFoley

cowzerp wrote: »

im not suprised at all-someone who is so into harming animals hardly has high morals.

Only for there are board rules preventing me from calling you an ignorant asshole i refrain form calling you that.

But i will however say this, how dare you make a judgment like that about other people.

togster

cowzerp wrote: »

but your tarring us with this fanatical brush because we dont agree with fox hunting with dogs.

You are an expert at that yourself.

cowzerp wrote: »

Thanks be to god. Bet its not!!!

I will stop posting when you stop baiting me. Again not the forst time in this thread.

cowzerp wrote: »

im not suprised at all-someone who is so into harming animals hardly has high morals.

See the first sentance you wrote in the last point about tarring people with a brush:rolleyes:

Hellrazer

snyper wrote: »

Only for there are board rules preventing me from calling you an ignorant asshole i refrain form calling you that.

Snyper consider this a warning.The above quote is still a breach of the rules.That goes for everyone else aswell--Ive had 2 reports about this thread so far.One more and its locked.

Whispered

togster wrote: »

I will hunt untill the day i die. Do you really think if a ban is implemented
i will stop hunting?

Just to be clear on where I stand at the moment - I am still anti fox hunting - bendihorse, togster etc tried to educate me and I suppose I'm about as informed as I will be. It is my personal decision to be anti fox hunting and not a personal vendetta against the people who do it. It is the actual act I have a problem with. Some of the arguements for fox hunting make fair points but in my opinion it does not stop the fact that an animal is killed for sport and I for one will be happy when it is banned. I am not trying to cause arguements here, I have kept an open mind and still feel the same way.

However, a running theme from the hunters is as I have quoted togster above as saying. This I have a huge problem with - who in the name of God do you think you are to say - I will continue - if the people of Ireland vote against this, or if laws are passed which outlaws it, then it is the height of arrogance to say you will continue to do it and to be honest would sway my opinion - and a lot of peoples opinions - on hunters in general.

AckwelFoley

I suppose I'm about as informed as I will be. It is my personal decision to be anti fox hunting and not a personal vendetta against the people who do it

.

Which makes you different to many anti foxhunting people.

You are well entitled to be for or against somthing , its the vendetta against the people who are involved in foxhunting that bothers me about this debate.

I sincerely believe you are genuine about fox welfare whereas most of the anti brigade couldnt give a fcuk about the fox.

15,000 dogs are put down by the state every year because of irresponsible ownership, where is the outcry? mTheres none, because the ppl that are against the killing of a few dozen of foxes every week during the winter presume the ppl involved in it are toffs and people of wealth.

And Ireland hates people with money.

Whispered

snyper wrote: »

.


15,000 dogs are put down by the state every year because of irresponsible ownership, where is the outcry? .

Thankfully there has been a big write up in the daily mail today about it. front cover and 3 pages inside. I am going to mail them thanking them for bringing up the issue and would ask anyone who cares to do the same. If a national newspaper got behind a campaign it could make a real difference.