Fox hunting poll in todays Irish Times

lightening

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Now now, leave dreadlocks alone.

I think you know I am not of that ilk. I am pro (certain) hunting, but the traditional fox hunt is antiquated, cruel and serves no real purpose. Even the farmers are getting a bit peeved at them.

lightening

Vegeta wrote: »

While I do not agree that fox hunting is cruel and unnecessary, they question still remains

Why put so much effort into this when on the grand scheme of things very little can ever be achieved. There are much bigger fish to fry.

Waste of effort really.

Another thread maybe?

It wasn't me!

I meant I like dreadlocks as a hairstyle man.

peasant

stevoman wrote: »

well yeah. im a field sports enthusiast and i do not just like to hunt, i love it. the anti groups in the uk that have caused the damage to fox hunting are far far more hardcore than we have in ireland. in fact the most part of the anti's in england that are hardcore are generally the "krustie" tree hugging dreadlock wearing folk that dont wash and have far more time on their hands, as they dont work. so they terrorise the hunts and generally cause sensationalism that makes it to the papers. luckily here in ireland, most of us work and have livings to take care of and in turn keeps most of the lunatics away from the hunts. Because of this i dont ever personally think that they will ban fox hunting her in ireland.

In truth if all of us hunters started becoming like those tree huggers and started to sabotage anti hunt meetings, as soon as the press got wind of it they'd propbobly support us just to sell papers!!

when it comes to hunting i just get on with it and i dont listen to other peoples facts and views as they are most often unfounded.

beleive half of what you see and none of what you hear!

I see the whole discussion went right over your head ...

Whispered

Hi, I have my own view on hunting, as posted here before, I think if you eat it and it's killed humanely then it's luckier than farmed animals.
I used to come up against my dad about this all the time. But as I grew older I learned there is a big difference between different types of hunting.
While I can understand, and have seen, the need to kill vermin, and even the enjoyment got from it in some cases, I dont understand the enjoyment gotten from fox hunting. Thats not for me to say there is no enjoyment. But hunters must understand why non-hunting people find it barbaric and hard to understand? It really is the only type of hunting (in Ireland) I have a problem with(besides illegal practises, which are illegal for a reason).

stevoman

peasant wrote: »

I see the whole discussion went right over your head ...

No it didnt. Im just telling it how i see it.

Bottom line. I'l always hunt in some form or another. Im just not going to let this anti foxhunting thing get under my skin. Thats why i pay my membership to the countryside alliance.

peasant

Vegeta wrote: »

While I do not agree that fox hunting is cruel and unnecessary, they question still remains

Why put so much effort into this when on the grand scheme of things very little can ever be achieved. There are much bigger fish to fry.

Waste of effort really.

Because animal rights is not just about the number of foxes dead or alive or the number of pigs(hens, cows) kept and killed in cruel circumstances ...it's about the mindsets of people. Those people that commit these cruelties and those that quietly tolerate them.

As long as there is a mindset in society that accepts the cruel ripping apart of one animal by other animals for "sport", you have a fat chance of getting people behind more humane conditions for their "food".

In order to change that mindset you have to work your way down on the scale of blatant cruelties.

Foxhunting to many people makes the top of that list.

Vegeta

peasant wrote: »

Because animal rights is not just about the number of foxes dead or alive or the number of pigs(hens, cows) kept and killed in cruel circumstances ...it's about the mindsets of people. Those people that commit these cruelties and those that quietly tolerate them.

The majority of people eat meat and therefore the majority of people aid these cruelties or as you put it quietly tolerate them(how many vegans do you know?). Banning a minority activity is a very poor way of trying to change the minds of the majority. So is a bad excuse really.

Unfortunately the mindset of people will more than likely always be in favour of eating meat grown in circumstances which make it cheap. Banning fox hunting will never make people buy free range or organic products.

Also lets do with less of the emotive language, you know the fox is already dead when torn apart so feels nothing of it and cannot be cruel.

Falconry is very similar to fox hunting, using animals to hunt animals. Yet there is never any negative media attention.

Fox hunting gets way over the top coverage for what it is.

peasant

You say "why worry about a few dead foxes, when there is so much other cruelty going on"

By the same argument the chicken farmer/egg consumer can say " why worry about the conditions of battery hens, at least that's necessary ...look at that (foxhunting) for real cruelty"

Both arguments are wrong, but both of them are a prime example for the prevailing mindset.

In a way, foxhunting is an "easy target" ...it's just so blatantly obvious that it's needless and pointless what's happening to that fox.

But everyone that gets hot under the collor about foxhunting (and lots of people do, once they see the bloody images) must let themselves be asked ..."so what is it that you do to protect animals?".

In that way a campaign against foxhunting (hopefully resulting in a ban) also raises general animal rights awareness.

stevoman

Vegeta wrote: »

Falconry is very similar to fox hunting, using animals to hunt animals. Yet there is never any negative media attention.

Fox hunting gets way over the top coverage for what it is.

excellent example. i am also a ferreter and keep and raise ferrets for the purpose of rabbit hunting/control. I have to enter the ferrets into the burrows in order to flush the rabbits out into nets where they are then dispathced. More often the ferret kils the rabbit in the burrow meaning i have to dig in to remove both the ferret and dead rabbit. This is on the same basis as fox hunting yet there is no anti lobbying against this sport.

Also what about the control of rats with terriers. This is what all the breeds of terriers where originally bred for. This is also a far more human way of getting a rat problem sorted out fast. a good group of terriers being worked in a large space can kill hundreds of rats in one nights hunting (iv seen it happen and i do mean hundreds), as opposed to poisoning them. again, i dont see the anti hunting lobby campaigning against this.

TBQH is beleive that the fox hunting groups are being singled out and attacked as happened in the UK. I do beleive though that fox hunting in ireland will not receive the same fate. In england it mostly happened on large gentry estates, which we dont have here and i beleive that the culture of "anarchism" against these levels of society that hunted on these estates, played a large part in the banning as most of your typical Uk anti's dont exactly look like they support the upper classes.

I also find it odd that in the animal and pet issue forum, nobody has yet to touch on the subject about how much work, love, time and money the fox hunters spend on training, kennelling and feeding their hounds, which on all occasions are top class dogs!

Vegeta

stevoman wrote: »

excellent example. i am also a ferreter and keep and raise ferrets for the purpose of rabbit hunting/control. I have to enter the ferrets into the burrows in order to flush the rabbits out into nets where they are then dispathced. More often the ferret kils the rabbit in the burrow meaning i have to dig in to remove both the ferret and dead rabbit. This is on the same basis as fox hunting yet there is no anti lobbying against this sport.

Also what about the control of rats with terriers. This is what all the breeds of terriers where originally bred for. This is also a far more human way of getting a rat problem sorted out fast. a good group of terriers being worked in a large space can kill hundreds of rats in one nights hunting (iv seen it happen and i do mean hundreds), as opposed to poisoning them. again, i dont see the anti hunting lobby campaigning against this.

TBQH is beleive that the fox hunting groups are being singled out and attacked as happened in the UK. I do beleive though that fox hunting in ireland will not receive the same fate. In england it mostly happened on large gentry estates, which we dont have here and i beleive that the culture of "anarchism" against these levels of society that hunted on these estates, played a large part in the banning as most of your typical Uk anti's dont exactly look like they support the upper classes.

I also find it odd that in the animal and pet issue forum, nobody has yet to touch on the subject about how much work, love, time and money the fox hunters spend on training, kennelling and feeding their hounds, which on all occasions are top class dogs!

Good post stevo

I know a lot of the english anti fox hunting crowd help the ICABS over here so they are a real threat us as well.

The anti hunt folk are a minority but they do know how to shout.

peasant

yes indeed, very good post stevoman

I don't think everybody on this forum was aware of all the other questionable practices that are going on besides foxhunting :D:D

stevoman

peasant wrote: »

yes indeed, very good post stevoman

I don't think everybody on this forum was aware of all the other questionable practices that are going on besides foxhunting :D:D

is this an attempt at being obnoctious. its not very good

peasant

no ...this is an attempt to point out that throughout all your contributions you've managed to shoot yourself in the foot ...this is not the hunting forum ...but never mind

stevoman

peasant wrote: »

no ...this is an attempt to point out that throughout all your contributions you've managed to shoot yourself in the foot ...this is not the hunting forum ...but never mind

how have i shot myself in the foot?

cowzerp

It wasn't me! wrote: »

so many elements are so vastly different. It's like telling someone they should stop playing rugby, that it hurts other people and that golf is the game they should be playing.

Ridiculus, rugby players choose to participate so if they get hurt they knew the risks, just like boxers do-foxes dont get a choice, also many other animals get killed along the way-stags, birds, badgers etc...
hunters are pompous scum, i genuinely would love if someone shot fox hunters to see how they like it.

stevoman

cowzerp wrote: »

Ridiculus, rugby players choose to participate so if they get hurt they knew the risks, just like boxers do-foxes dont get a choice, also many other animals get killed along the way-stags, birds, badgers etc...
hunters are pompous scum, i genuinely would love if someone shot fox hunters to see how they like it.

your obviously highly educated in this subject (NOT!).:D

why would you shoot fox hunters to see how they like it when they are following them on horseback with hounds.

If you said "maybe foxes should follow hunters on horseback with hounds and see how they like it", you might make some more sense. :rolleyes:

cowzerp

stevoman wrote: »

why would you shoot fox hunters to see how they like it when they are following them on horseback with hounds.

If you said "maybe foxes should follow hunters on horseback with hounds and see how they like it", you might make some more sense. :rolleyes:

Yeah because thats likely to happen!! i would like to see cruel animal hunters hunted by any means-and been ripped to bits in the end would be the best end for me, im not anti all hunting but needless cruel hunting by snobs who get there kicks out of cruelty makes me sick-bang bang, i'll laugh if it happens..:D

stevoman

cowzerp wrote: »

Yeah because thats likely to happen!! i would like to see cruel animal hunters hunted by any means-and been ripped to bits in the end would be the best end for me, im not anti all hunting but needless cruel hunting by snobs who get there kicks out of cruelty makes me sick

cheers mate you just proved my point .anyone looking please refer to my post earlier about the "anarchism" in the anti hunting lobby. this fits the bill.

cheers for your input mate, but trust me. your views aint anything im gonna lose any sleep over :D

togster

peasant wrote: »

yes indeed, very good post stevoman

I don't think everybody on this forum was aware of all the other questionable practices that are going on besides foxhunting :D:D

But thats the point. What you deem acceptable is different to what i see as humane. I have hunted my entire life. I was brought up with animals in the country. Have seen animals born and dying. We at our hunt have strict rules of etiquette regarding flushing covers, and giving chase. I would like to point out that there is often 2 distinct groups that go hunting of a day. Those that are there for the craic of jumping walls and travelling cross-country and those who are there to hunt. I am one of these people. I whip-in and in doing so i am quite knowledgable of a fox's actions and a hounds. I have seen many foxes dispatched by hounds. All were killed outright....So taking that away.... Do you have an issue with the chase or the kill. People use the terminology "ripped to pieces" oe "ripped to bits" and yes they are but after death. I do not criticise anyone for having an opinion but at least please have an informed one. And by this i mean go and see a hunt... see how foxes and hounds interact in their environment...witness the chase etc.

cowzerp

yeah right!! your non sport is going with the dodo's, bye bye..

togster

OK good contribution there. I don't believe it will be banned but sure you do so we will beg to differ. I don't understand why their is such hostility towards hunters tbh.

peasant

togster wrote: »

Do you have an issue with the chase or the kill. People use the terminology "ripped to pieces" oe "ripped to bits" and yes they are but after death. I do not criticise anyone for having an opinion but at least please have an informed one. And by this i mean go and see a hunt... see how foxes and hounds interact in their environment...witness the chase etc.

I have an issue with both.

Wherever the fox population needs to be controlled, this can most effectivley be done by shooting them.

A chase by dogs is not effective as vermin control, as foxes tend to escape. It is done for the "sport" ...but during all that the poor fox is subjected to massive stress and fear, even if it does escape in the end.

The kill by dog(s) is not always humane either, there is a severe risk of very painful injury to both fox and dogs.

It is needless, pointless and cruel. If you want to have a hunt, gallop around in the country side, see the dogs in action ...have a well organised drag hunt with several scent lines ...it'll be just as "fun" and no fox has to suffer.

It wasn't me!

http://www.vet-wildlifemanagement.org.uk/print_html/VetOpinion_html.htm

Worth a read I daresay. Taught me a few new things, though I dunno how much credence I give the stuff about shooting. I can't imagine that many wounded survivors, personally, even including the useless cowboy shots.

togster

peasant wrote: »

The kill by dog(s) is not always humane either, there is a severe risk of very painful injury to both fox and dogs.

OK. I am not trying to be condescending here but.....
Have you ever gone to a hunt?
I can only speak from my experience which is alot;) but i think people often try and superimpose human feelings onto an animal. I will try and explain... I do not refute the fact that the fox feels "fear". However i believe that his fear is different to what you or i would classify as fear. I have seen foxes calmly jog away from a cover and others streak away. To what extent they experience fear is debateable. Is it not just a natural thing to do.

peasant

togster wrote: »

OK. I am not trying to be condescending here but.....
Have you ever gone to a hunt?
I can only speak from my experience which is alot;) but i think people often try and superimpose human feelings onto an animal. I will try and explain... I do not refute the fact that the fox feels "fear". However i believe that his fear is different to what you or i would classify as fear. I have seen foxes calmly jog away from a cover and others streak away. To what extent they experience fear is debateable. Is it not just a natural thing to do.

I have never been to a hunt and I will never go to one either , I could not guarantee for my actions.

I do keep several animals though (dogs and cats) and I can tell you from my experience that what an animal experiences and what it allows itself to outwardly display are two very different things. I can tell when my dogs are under severe stress for example, a bystander probably wouldn't be able to, because it is their instinct not to display or show any weakness or fear.

Just because they look and act calm doesn't mean that they are.

Might it be you who has to learn about animal behaviour?

doctor evil

peasant wrote: »

If a good shooter kills a fox, the fox will never hear the shot that killed it.
That is humane vermin control.

Being chased by lots and lots of dogs to exhaustion and possibly death is cruelty.

Simple as that.


But it gets compounded by the fact that this is done needlessly and for entertainment/enjoyment ...that's just plain wrong.

A shooter is not always going to get a clean shot. If a fox is caught by hounds it is quickly dispatched.

Participants at the hunt get enjoyment out of riding through country and obstacles at different speeds. Those who work for the hunt get joy out of honing their skills and doing the job well (controlling and hounds and what not), not the actual kill itself.

Drag hunting is a lot different to fox hunting. It can be a lot faster over bigger jumps, fox hunting is more social as it allows a breather for horses while the hounds are drawing a scent. With drag hunting there may also be a problem with access to land, the farmer would like some return in vermin control now matter how small.

I seriously doubt it is the same fox hunted through out the day.

togster

peasant wrote: »

Might it be you who has to learn about animal behaviour?

If you have never been to a hunt how do you know what happens?
Just a question.

I don't need to learn about animal behaviour...i've experienced it;) There is a huge difference. I can comment on fox behaviour because i've encountered many. Of course you can too.... thats your perrogative. But have you ever seen a fox chased? Under stress? Wild animals experience stress differently to domesticated pets. Thhey have not been conditioned to feel a certain way. This occurs because of their interaction with their environment and the individuals who inhabit said environment. Wild animals have never experienced affection from a human. That in itself is a good indicator to show that fear and stress coping mechanisms are self learned.

peasant

If you have never been to a hunt how do you know what happens?
Just a question.

Believe it or not, there are people out there who, rather than just spurting out prejudices and hearsay, inform themselves through various sources.
I'm one of them.

Wild animals experience stress differently to domesticated pets

Agreed.

Being chased (and possibly killed)by dozens of your mortal enemies is stress at the highest level though ...wild animal or not.

Getting enjoyment out of participating in / facilitating such a chase is animal cruelty.


And that's what it boils down to.

togster

peasant wrote: »

Agreed.

Being chased (and possibly killed)by dozens of your mortal enemies is stress at the highest level though ...wild animal or not.

Getting enjoyment out of participating in / facilitating such a chase is animal cruelty.


And that's what it boils down to.

What sources? How long does the average chase last for? Being an informed poster you will know right?

"mortal enemies"...really? How so? A tad sensationalist no?

Its hard to debate something with someone who has no experience in what they are discussing. By all means you can debate it but its the same old points and sensationalism. Your idea of cruelty is different to mine.