Fox hunting poll in todays Irish Times

togster

Hellrazer wrote: »

All I keep hearing is that its for "vermin control" which is bull****.And we "dont hunt for pleasure" which is more bull****.

Thats your opinion. I hunt because i enjoy it but also becuase of vermin control. But i've said that as much as i can.

cowzerp

togster wrote: »

Thats your opinion. I hunt because i enjoy it but also becuase of vermin control. But i've said that as much as i can.

Good because your talking nonsense, and your done with me so wont reply-:D

Hellrazer

togster wrote: »

I hunt because i enjoy it

You see this is the part that I have the problem with--How anyone can openly say that they "enjoy" killing a defenceless animal is beyond me.

I just dont get it.If it was for vermin control then fine,if it was for food then fine.

I just feel that those who do it for fun and post pics up on websites for all to see have something wrong with them.

My 9 year old came across the "post your pics of dead animals that you shot here" thread and it took hours to calm her down.I feel that thread should deleted or put in a private forum.

cowzerp

Hellrazer wrote: »

You see this is the part that I have the problem with--How anyone can openly say that they "enjoy" killing a defenceless animal is beyond me.

I just dont get it.If it was for vermin control then fine,if it was for food then fine.

I just feel that those who do it for fun and post pics up on websites for all to see have something wrong with them.

My 9 year old came across the "post your pics of dead animals that you shot here" thread and it took hours to calm her down.I feel that thread should deleted or put in a private forum.

Agreed, paedophiles enjoy molesting children-but this does not make it right, they have a sickness and thank god its illegal, when fox hunting is banned these sicko's will have to face the law too. civilised society has to stop this torture of any animal, if they need culling, make it humane and not "FUN"

togster

Hellrazer wrote: »

You see this is the part that I have the problem with--How anyone can openly say that they "enjoy" killing a defenceless animal is beyond me.

I just dont get it.If it was for vermin control then fine,if it was for food then fine.

You selected part of my post. I said i hunted because i enjoyed it and because of vermin control. So its OK to hunt as long as we don't enjoy it?

Hellrazer wrote: »

My 9 year old came across the "post your pics of dead animals that you shot here" thread and it took hours to calm her down.I feel that thread should deleted or put in a private forum.

I don't really know what this has to do with the discussion in here.

togster

cowzerp wrote: »

Agreed, paedophiles enjoy molesting children-but this does not make it right, they have a sickness and thank god its illegal, when fox hunting is banned these sicko's will have to face the law too. civilised society has to stop this torture of any animal, if they need culling, make it humane and not "FUN"

Are you equating what i do to what a paedophile does? Its an animal for god sake, you need to understand that. NOT A CHILD.

Do you really think that if a ban is implemented here, that the government are going to provide guards to police every hunt?

cowzerp

togster wrote: »

Are you equating what i do to what a paedophile does? Its an animal for god sake, you need to understand that. NOT A CHILD.

YES-both get satifaction from abusing a weaker beings and are both sick minded gaining mental satisfaction from the abuse they do, oh i thought you where finished with me???

Hellrazer

togster wrote: »

You selected part of my post. I said i hunted because i enjoyed it and because of vermin control. So its OK to hunt as long as we don't enjoy it?

I selected part of your post because as I stated in my reply that "this is the part I have the problem with" if you want to go back and read the post again.

I would agree whole heartedly with it if it was just for vermin control or food.

As for the bit about the websites--it has a lot to do with the discussion at hand because it demonstrates that hunting is not just for vermin control but is used as a so called "sport" where hunters can show off their great prowess at killing a defenceless animal with a high powered rifle.

All arguments for it being just for "vermin control" go out the window by looking at that thread.

togster

cowzerp wrote: »

YES-both get satifaction from abusing a weaker beings and are both sick minded gaining mental satisfaction from the abuse they do, oh i thought you where finished with me???

I am not sick minded. Its not the first time you have attempted to abuse me in this thread. Jesus can you please read what i write....i do not get mental satisfaction from watching an animal die. Do you get it?

By the way a fox is not a human in case you have missed that. You really need to chill out.

togster

Hellrazer wrote: »

I would agree whole heartedly with it if it was just for vermin control or food.

So its acceptable to hunt with hounds as long as it is purely for vermin control. good to know.

Hellrazer wrote: »

As for the bit about the websites--it has a lot to do with the discussion at hand because it demonstrates that hunting is not just for vermin control but is used as a so called "sport" where hunters can show off their great prowess at killing a defenceless animal with a high powered rifle.

.

But this is about fox-hunting is it not?

cowzerp

togster wrote: »

I am not sick minded. Its not the first time you have attempted to abuse me in this thread. Jesus can you please read what i write....i do not get mental satisfaction from watching an animal die. Do you get it?

By the way a fox is not a human in case you have missed that. You really need to chill out.

You have stated many times you enjoy it, animal abuse is awful aswell as child abuse, you need to have a sick mind to want to abuse either in my opinion, i never abused you, im just stating my opinion. and im not bothered if it hurts your sensitive soul.

~Thalia~

togster wrote: »

i do not get mental satisfaction from watching an animal die.

What do you get from it?

Naturally you are entitled to your opinion but I think it's optimistic in the extreme for you to air your views in an animals and pets forum and expect anything but utter disgust for the practice you deem 'sport'. It quite simply isn't and personally speaking there is little point in your protestations to the contrary because it's unlikely you will get any hearing amongst genuine animal lovers.

Whispered

WOW - this conversation has gotten crazy!

My own personal opinion on hunting is if it needs to be done - it should be done humanely. I am not anti hunting, but I am certainly not pro hunting. If all hunters were responsible about things then there may be less of a problem. For example, earlier in the conversation it was brought up about the state some dogs are kept in, witnessed first hand by EGAR. It was shot down by a comment like "I've seen more than you" Yes I would imagine that it is the minority of dogs that this happens to but the fact it happens and the fact that other hunters must know about it,and perhaps turn a blind eye is unforgiveable. If these people were reported then I think a bit more respect would come from the non-hunting community. I know that is probably not a very good example but what I mean is if acts of unnecessary cruelty are not tolerated by other hunters, people might be more accepting. (I feel the same about greyhound racing/horse racing - any sport involving animals really).

Out of interest, is there a body which governs the hunts? Do you need some sort of license? If a fox runs over land you are not allowed on, is it common practise to trespass, and what are the legal implications if you do? Is it common practise to dig the fox up? About how many foxes are killed by hunts every year? If a dog gets badly injured- out on the hunt, what usually happens? Thanks.

peasant

togster wrote: »

By the way a fox is not a human in case you have missed that.

Correct, a fox is not human.

But it is a fellow living being, sentient, with individual personality and behaviour.

It deserves our respect and to be treated with dignity.


Chasing it down with dozens of hounds or digging it out with terriers and shovels is neither respectful nor dignified.

Hellrazer

togster wrote: »

So its acceptable to hunt with hounds as long as it is purely for vermin control. good to know.

Nope-Hound hunting is never for vermin control despite what you lot say.Its all about "the day out"

But this is about fox-hunting is it not?

I havent looked at more than one or two pages of that thread but maybe you can enlighten us--Is there pictures of Foxes blown to bits on it??

togster

helena.ryan wrote: »

Out of interest, is there a body which governs the hunts? Do you need some sort of license? If a fox runs over land you are not allowed on, is it common practise to trespass, and what are the legal implications if you do? Is it common practise to dig the fox up? About how many foxes are killed by hunts every year? If a dog gets badly injured- out on the hunt, what usually happens? Thanks.

The IMFHA governs hunts. Yes you need to register your pack. It is not common practice to tress-pass on the land. I don't know of the legal implications. I don't know how many foxes are killed each year by hunts. It is not common practice to dig up a fox. Actually it is frowned upon. It depends on the injury what course of action will be taken. I know we have a vet on our staff who treats any of our injured hounds.

togster

~Thalia~ wrote: »

hearing amongst genuine animal lovers.

Who decides who and who is not a genuine animal lover? I love my horses and dogs and cats. They are mine. But they are animals. And i treat them accordingly.

togster

peasant wrote: »

Chasing it down with dozens of hounds or digging it out with terriers and shovels is neither respectful nor dignified.

Thats your opinion.

togster

Hellrazer wrote: »

Nope-Hound hunting is never for vermin control despite what you lot say.

I thought you said different a minute ago. Apologies.

Hellrazer wrote: »

I havent looked at more than one or two pages of that thread but maybe you can enlighten us--Is there pictures of Foxes blown to bits on it??

I didn't realise you were talking about the thread on boards. I have never looked at it tbh. Although i still fail to see the relevance of it here. Perhaps in feedback?

cowzerp

You've done the last 4 posts, thats trolling and your not new to boards so know this..

~Thalia~

togster wrote: »

Who decides who and who is not a genuine animal lover? I love my horses and dogs and cats. They are mine. But they are animals. And i treat them accordingly.

I don't believe anyone who engages in a sport where the ultimate aim is the death of an animal is an animal lover. My opinion. To claim oneself an animal lover while taking part in hunting is hypocrisy (sp?).


You are obviously entitled to your opinion on this but I'm sorry you won't get an inch from me. Like I said previously should you like to debate this with people who are more likeminded maybe this isn't the best place to start.

Whispered

Thanks togster, glad to know the fox is not usually dug up, when I heard that I was bit shocked as I assumed the "fun" of it was in the chase.

Is it usual to have a vet there for the dogs? And is there a way we could find out the numbers. I'm not taking a dig but in fairness if fox hunting is a conservation sport I assume the numbers killed are available if I went looking for them?

I see you declined to comment on my reporting unnecessary cruelty part of that post so I will ask outright, Hunters - if you know of a fellow hunter who you are sure mistreats his pack do you report him/her?

togster

cowzerp wrote: »

You've done the last 4 posts, thats trolling and your not new to boards so know this..

No i wasn't trolling. i was trying to repond to each post individually and i have yet to figure out how to do that in one post:)

MsFifers

togster wrote: »

I love my horses and dogs and cats. They are mine. But they are animals. And i treat them accordingly.

What does that mean exactly? If you "own" an animal you treat it kindly, and if you don't you can terrorise it?

Would you let your dogs chase and try to kill a stray cat? If not - why not? Because it would be cruel?

There is no logic to your arguments.

cowzerp

MsFifers wrote: »

What does that mean exactly? If you "own" an animal you treat it kindly, and if you don't you can terrorise it?

Would you let your dogs chase and try to kill a stray cat? If not - why not? Because it would be cruel?

There is no logic to your arguments.

Well said, that is so true.

togster

helena.ryan wrote: »

Is it usual to have a vet there for the dogs? And is there a way we could find out the numbers. I'm not taking a dig but in fairness if fox hunting is a conservation sport I assume the numbers killed are available if I went looking for them?

Thanks for your reply Helena. I know many vets hunt with many packs. I know our vet carries a little first aid pack with her. I don't know about the numbers part tbh! Im sure each hunt has their own records.

helena.ryan wrote: »

I see you declined to comment on my reporting unnecessary cruelty part of that post so I will ask outright, Hunters - if you know of a fellow hunter who you are sure mistreats his pack do you report him/her?

Sorry i wasn't trying to evade your question...i simply missed it. First of (not trying to be smart!) a huntsman usually looks after the pack or indeed a kenelsman. I have never seen hounds improperly treated so i have never had to report anyone. But to answer your question i have reported people who have kept horses,dogs,shee,cows in the past so i would not hesitate to do the same agian.
Theres bad eggs in every walk of life.

togster

MsFifers wrote: »

What does that mean exactly? If you "own" an animal you treat it kindly, and if you don't you can terrorise it?

I didn't mean that to sound that way.

MsFifers wrote: »

Would you let your dogs chase and try to kill a stray cat? If not - why not? Because it would be cruel?

No.

MsFifers wrote: »

There is no logic to your arguments.

OK.

MsFifers

togster wrote: »

OK.

Well glad you concede that much!

Vegeta

Hellrazer wrote: »

I selected part of your post because as I stated in my reply that "this is the part I have the problem with" if you want to go back and read the post again.

I would agree whole heartedly with it if it was just for vermin control or food.

As for the bit about the websites--it has a lot to do with the discussion at hand because it demonstrates that hunting is not just for vermin control but is used as a so called "sport" where hunters can show off their great prowess at killing a defenceless animal with a high powered rifle.

All arguments for it being just for "vermin control" go out the window by looking at that thread.

There are loads of pictures of game in that thread (which are eaten) so "vermin control" only applies when its vermin.

Are you a vegan family? The reason I ask is because your kids might get a bit of a shock when they realise animals are being killed/suffer to feed them or for other products like leather etc. Or is that ok because someone else has to do the killing?

Vegeta

~Thalia~ wrote: »

I don't believe anyone who engages in a sport where the ultimate aim is the death of an animal is an animal lover. My opinion. To claim oneself an animal lover while taking part in hunting is hypocrisy (sp?).

Clearly you are a vegan then as by the same logic you couldn't love animals and eat meat, eggs, butter etc etc etc

reminds me a a quote I once saw "Of course I'm an animal lover, they're delicious"

Also I suppose no-one here owns a cat because lord knows how hard you'd cry at night knowing your cat is outside killing mice, song birds etc

Vegeta

MsFifers wrote: »

What does that mean exactly? If you "own" an animal you treat it kindly, and if you don't you can terrorise it?

Would you let your dogs chase and try to kill a stray cat? If not - why not? Because it would be cruel?

There is no logic to your arguments.

Doe you own a cat, I hope not due to the cruelty it inflicts on the local mice and song bird population

cowzerp

Vegeta wrote: »

There are loads of pictures of game in that thread (which are eaten) so "vermin control" only applies when its vermin.

Are you a vegan family? The reason I ask is because your kids might get a bit of a shock when they realise animals are being killed/suffer to feed them or for other products like leather etc. Or is that ok because someone else has to do the killing?

When i was in oz, the lads i was with hunted and killed a goat with a crossbow, i was with them-it was very quick and they used the coat and the meat off the goat, i had no moral problem with this-if we left it dead by the side of the road i would have said it was immoral and done just for the sake of killing. if its done for pleasure and for no good reason there is something wrong.

cowzerp

Vegeta wrote: »

Doe you own a cat, I hope not due to the cruelty it inflicts on the local mice and song bird population

Thats natural, not organised by a bunch of pompous snobs.

Vegeta

cowzerp wrote: »

When i was in oz, the lads i was with hunted and killed a goat with a crossbow, i was with them-it was very quick and they used the coat and the meat off the goat, i had no moral problem with this-if we left it dead by the side of the road i would have said it was immoral and done just for the sake of killing. if its done for pleasure and for no good reason there is something wrong.

Can I ask did you enjoy being out in the countryside?

Did you enjoy the show of skill needed to get close to a goat with a crossbow?

Did you enjoy the meat?

Did you enjoy the death of the animal?

togster

cowzerp wrote: »

When i was in oz, the lads i was with hunted and killed a goat with a crossbow, i was with them-it was very quick and they used the coat and the meat off the goat, i had no moral problem with this-if we left it dead by the side of the road i would have said it was immoral and done just for the sake of killing. if its done for pleasure and for no good reason there is something wrong.

So they killed this goat with a bow and arrow and used its coat for what?
Did their survival depend upon it? I mean would you have died without killing this helpless goat?
So are you saying that if we hunt the fox and eat it and use its fur everyhing is OK?
Because to follow your point to conclusion that is what you are saying?

peasant

Vegeta wrote: »

Doe you own a cat, I hope not due to the cruelty it inflicts on the local mice and song bird population

just as an aside ...the damage a cat can do can easily be minimised by keeping it inside during the night and dusk & dawn

Vegeta

cowzerp wrote: »

Thats natural, not organised by a bunch of pompous snobs.

So pack animals (hounds) chasing prey (fox) is suddenly un-natural. Not true I fear

So lets say there were no pompous snobs (not that I believe there are any) does it suddenly change from being un-natural to natural. I think not

togster

Vegeta wrote: »

So pack animals (hounds) chasing prey (fox) is suddenly un-natural. Not true I fear

So lets say there were no pompous snobs (not that I believe there are any) does it suddenly change from being un-natural to natural. I think not

Very good point.

Vegeta

peasant wrote: »

just as an aside ...the damage a cat can do can easily be minimised by keeping it inside during the night and dusk & dawn

peasant don't tell me you own one of the vile creatures

Only cold hearted scum bastards own such mice killers. They rip them apart and eat them. its sick

Clearly Joking

peasant

As we are going round in circles, I think it's about time, I resurrected a post from page one (yes, page 1!) of this thread:

Originally Posted by It wasn't me!
It contributes to effective vermin control, albeit a small part of it. For every fox killed by dogs, hundreds are shot every week.

Thank you!

End of debate ...you've just proven (and conceded to) the point that foxhunting (the dog-pack/horseback version) is pointless.

It can therefore be classified as what it is ...an act of needless animal cruelty that should be banned.


I rest my case.

cowzerp

To answer togser and vegeta, i got no joy out of the goat been killed, i ate it because i would have felt terrible if it was killed for the purpose of fun, nobody else ate it, i taste like crap! the coat was used as a mat and again this meant that something came out of the goat been killed, in oz goats are ferrell animals and cause all the natural animals to die off, the death was instant and not torture,

i wear leather and at least the animal that supplied it was used for good reason and not tortured so i cn have leather, i eat meat and try to eat free range food, do you eat the fox? if there vermin why cant they just be shot by an expert and not tortured?

my brother shot about 50 rabbits in an army barracks that was over ran with them, he then gave all the rabbits to the cook and they all had rabbit stew for dinner, he may have enjoyed it! i dont know, but he used the kill for a good reason.. dont compare your torture of animals to this..

Vegeta

peasant wrote: »

As we are going round in circles, I think it's about time, I resurrected a post from page one (yes, page 1!) of this thread:

and as i have already shown a small % of vermin control is better than zero so your arguement falls down.

cowzerp

Vegeta wrote: »

So pack animals (hounds) chasing prey (fox) is suddenly un-natural. Not true I fear

So lets say there were no pompous snobs (not that I believe there are any) does it suddenly change from being un-natural to natural. I think not

If they where wild dogs chasing a fox i'd say it was natural, been bred for this purpose and lead by snobs is not, so the answer is yes it does change from natural to un natural..anyway fox is not a natural prey for dogs anyway, rabbits, birds, lambs etc would be..

togster

cowzerp wrote: »

To answer togser and vegeta, i got no joy out of the goat been killed, i ate it because i would have felt terrible if it was killed for the purpose of fun, nobody else ate it, i taste like crap! the coat was used as a mat and again this meant that something came out of the goat been killed, in oz goats are ferrell animals and cause all the natural animals to die off, the death was instant and not torture,

i wear leather and at least the animal that supplied it was used for good reason and not tortured so i cn have leather, i eat meat and try to eat free range food, do you eat the fox? if there vermin why cant they just be shot by an expert and not tortured?

my brother shot about 50 rabbits in an army barracks that was over ran with them, he then gave all the rabbits to the cook and they all had rabbit stew for dinner, he may have enjoyed it! i dont know, but he used the kill for a good reason.. dont compare your torture of animals to this..

No but you said you went hunting with some guys in australia. You used a bog and arrow and shot the goat. I asked you (and you didn't answer) if we ate the fox or used its fur would you have a problem with what we did? And if so why? What you did in Oz was no different to what we do here. You partook in an exercise for enjoyment (or was it survival?) then you ate the goat because you felt guilty. Right? Are you also suggesting the goat experienced no stress during your hunt?

Whispered

Vegeta wrote: »

Also I suppose no-one here owns a cat because lord knows how hard you'd cry at night knowing your cat is outside killing mice, song birds etc

I own a cat, two in fact, and I dont cry at night over them killing songbirds or mice as I keep them in at night, during the day they have full access to the house so i suspect they sleep most of the day and also they have bells to try minimise what they kill. I try stop them doing it and most certainly dont organise it! Cats hunting, while not being very nice, is natural. To be honest I take the same stance with hunting with one or two dogs, it's almost a fair contest then. But you cant compare a hunt of 50+ dogs, flusing everything out thats in it's way, with a cat hunting.

Granted I have never been on a hunt but I have, as a child, gone with my father with his dogs, and at the time there was a fascination with how his two terriers and lurcher worked together. It was pretty amazing to watch, they almost read each others minds! Hated the kill part, but it was very rare it happened. (perhaps because I was there and used to get upset dear old dad delayed letting the lurcher into the chase) I can't imagine that type of communication in such a large pack? My view of a hunt is simply a blanket of noise which scares everything out of hiding and takes little skill or communication on the part of the dogs.

Whispered

Vegeta wrote: »

So pack animals (hounds) chasing prey (fox) is suddenly un-natural. Not true I fear

So lets say there were no pompous snobs (not that I believe there are any) does it suddenly change from being un-natural to natural. I think not

Is the size of the pack natural?

togster

cowzerp wrote: »

If they where wild dogs chasing a fox i'd say it was natural, been bred for this purpose and lead by snobs is not, so the answer is yes it does change from natural to un natural..anyway fox is not a natural prey for dogs anyway, rabbits, birds, lambs etc would be..

Eh a wolf is a fox's natural predator. A hound is a descendant of wolf. Am i wrong?

togster

helena.ryan wrote: »

Is the size of the pack natural?

That has no bearing on anything with respect. The reason we use a large pack is to draw large covers. It is the "lead" hound who takes up the scent. The hounds do not ambush the fox, they hunt on scent. So numbers have no bearing.

Whispered

togster wrote: »

The reason we use a large pack is to draw large covers.

What does that mean?

togster

helena.ryan wrote: »

I can't imagine that type of communication in such a large pack? My view of a hunt is simply a blanket of noise which scares everything out of hiding and takes little skill or communication on the part of the dogs.

Well then you would be wrong! I can see you have learnt alot from watching the lurcher and terriers work. In the pack of hounds (usually 20-30hounds) there is a hierarchy. With experience the pack learns to watch the more senior members of the pack. The same hounds will draw the flanks of the covert and others will draw center. It is not a blanket of noise. The hounds (lead hounds) bay upon taking up scent. The people on horses stay quiet as the hounds draw a covert.