Fox hunting poll in todays Irish Times

Bendihorse

helena.ryan wrote: »

LOL if my cats were left out overnight they would probably be baying for my blood! Most cats prefer to sleep indoors and are no more held captive than I am when I'm in bed!

This may be true helen but cats were not born indoors, theres a reason they have fur and their sharp claws and agile bodies were not designed for worrying carpets and climbing up the back of the couch. You are using my quote out of context. Peasent said she could minimise the damage a cat could cause in the wild by keeping it indoors, im saying that if you kept your cat indoors expressly to prevent it from hunting that would be against its instincts.

togster

Bendihorse wrote: »

if you kept your cat indoors expressly to prevent it from hunting that would be against its instincts.

Good point and also cruel... no?

peasant

Vegeta wrote: »

and as i have already shown a small % of vermin control is better than zero so your arguement falls down.

That would only hold true if that small percentage of vermin control did NOT involve cruelty!

As it stands, the achieved degree of "vermin control" stands in no relation to the cruelty inflicted. Especially as it is so much more effective and less cruel to just shoot the foxes if necessary.

Argument stands and wins hands down

If we then take into account the cost/benefit side of it all, I think that mainting a fully functioning hunt with hounds and horses for the purposes of vermin control stands no comparison to the cost of a few dedicated people with lamps and guns.

So ...come on ...admit it ...you do that way it because you like it exactly that way and because you have fun doing it.


Deriving enjoyment out of inflicting cruelty to animals (for no purpose whatsoever) is sick.


Now go home.

Vegeta

cowzerp wrote: »

Total crap, humans hunting foxes is not natural, by your way of talking we should just kill everything in the wild because there below us, hunting for food is natural, hunting for a warm coat was natural, hunting for fun shows the evil vindictive part of human nature, this ranks with dog fighting, bear baiting, badger baiting and cock fighting..

How many times do you have to be told. No one hunts for fun. They have fun while hunting there is a big big difference.

You yourself enjoyed the hunt of a goat. Did you hunt for fun. I doubt it

I hunt a lot, a lot and there are times I shoot nothing but still enjoy myself as the aspects people enjoy about hunting is not the killing

You simply will not accept this though and see it as some sort of lie or misdirection despite having experienced hunting for yourself.

People who hunt on horseback enjoy being out together in the countryside. They don't love to see an animal killed or else they would stop going as the number of foxes killed by this method is very low

Bendihorse

cowzerp wrote: »

Total crap, humans hunting foxes is not natural, by your way of talking we should just kill everything in the wild because there below us, hunting for food is natural, hunting for a warm coat was natural, hunting for fun shows the evil vindictive part of human nature, this ranks with dog fighting, bear baiting, badger baiting and cock fighting..

No, as long as the fox is given ample room to flee then its on a completely different level to the other things you have listed. Foxes are hunted in their own natural habitat, home ground if you like. They have a distinct advantage in the hunt. There is no room to flee in the other things you mentioned, just confrontation.

peasant

Bendihorse wrote: »

Peasent said she could minimise the damage a cat could cause in the wild by keeping it indoors, im saying that if you kept your cat indoors expressly to prevent it from hunting that would be against its instincts.

nope ...

The cats are outside hunting all day (or lying in the sun, if there is any) ...they just don't catch as much during broad daylight because their prey can spot them easily enough.

and btw ...they come home at dusk all by themselves, I don't have to rope them in either, so I'd say they're happy enough

Bendihorse

Im not suggesting that your cats arn't happy at all peasant, im just saying that preventing ANY animal from doing something that comes naturally to them is cruelty of a form.

cowzerp

Vegeta wrote: »

How many times do you have to be told. No one hunts for fun. They have fun while hunting there is a big big difference.

You yourself enjoyed the hunt of a goat. Did you hunt for fun. I doubt it

When did i say i enjoyed the hunt?? the bushmen i was with hunted 1 goat for its hide and for food that turned out horrible, it was quick and certaqinly did not go through any time of fear, it died instantly, i saw it-it dropped and did not move at all, also nearly all the pro hunt people above said they hunt for fun..

Vegeta

peasant wrote: »

That would only hold true if that small percentage of vermin control did NOT involve cruelty!

Why? because you say so.......am no.

Your arguement was that hunting horses with hounds is not a very efficient method of vermin control

Not being efficient is no reason to ban anything I'm afraid so you lose.

As it stands, the achieved degree of "vermin control" stands in no relation to the cruelty inflicted. Especially as it is so much more effective and less cruel to just shoot the foxes if necessary.

In your poorly educated opinion after all I doubt you have even tried to shoot one with a rifle.

So this is not necessarily true, people do miss, rifles lose zero and foxes are tough targets, so a fox could live for days in agony with a gut or snout wound. Which would be much worse than being chased for a while.

Argument stands and wins hands down

Not really when you don't have any first hand knowledge and form opinions based on second hand material from questionable sources. Always amazes me that.

If we then take into account the cost/benefit side of it all, I think that mainting a fully functioning hunt with hounds and horses for the purposes of vermin control stands no comparison to the cost of a few dedicated people with lamps and guns.

Cost is no reason to ban anything its not like you have to pay for it and horses are not needed for hounds to chase foxes.

So ...come on ...admit it ...you do that way it because you like it exactly that way and because you have fun doing it.

I have never ridden a horse and live in an estate. I have seen many hunts on foot and shoot foxes myself so have a great deal of first hand knowledge but am not a member of any horse back hunt group. I am standng up for the right of the hunters to hunt on

Deriving enjoyment out of inflicting cruelty to animals (for no purpose whatsoever) is sick.

You're right it is, luckily hunts do have a purpose and no one enjoys making animals suffer so its all good

Now go home.

Its not 5.30 yet

Vegeta

cowzerp wrote: »

also nearly all the pro hunt people above said they hunt for fun..

Again you try poorly to twist things, they hunt because its fun, they don't kill for fun. HUGE difference

You really have to accept this as that's the truth

Hellrazer

Bendihorse wrote: »

If you ask someone in the morning who has no real knowledge of hunting if they thing it should be banned, then 99% of them will say ‘Yes’ as they don’t know enough about it themselves to make an informed decision so its safer to say that it should be banned.

If you want to understand something and have an opinion on it then go out there and experience it yourself. People that are misinformed should not be asked to vote on something that they know nothing about. That’s not democracy, that’s like giving a child a gun to play with.

Members of my wifes family were and still are involved in Fox hunting and to be totally honest some of the things I saw there are exactly what has me so anti fox hunting.So I am making an informed decision as to why it should be banned.

rosyposy

well said bendihorse

I've just had a look at the thread, I have never been on a fox hunt or witnessed anything that goes on at them, so who am I to form comments and opinions, when I havent even attended one? I sincerely hope those who have such strong opinions have done the same, not just looked at pictures and listened to reports.

I find theres too many posts full of emotional involvement, smart comments, personal digs and misinformation on this topic. (I stress not in everyones posts:))

Theres nothing wrong with being emotional and passionate, but sometimes with these debates its better to leave the emotion at the door.

Bendihorse

Vegeta wrote: »

How many times do you have to be told. No one hunts for fun. They have fun while hunting there is a big big difference

I think this is a very important point as the pro hunting argument are coming across incorrectly in their own points - i think its fair to say (despite what may have been said in the incorrect context thus far) that nobody that hunts for fun, they have fun while hunting. Hunting and killing is a necessary 'evil' in the cycle of life on this planet, people just dont understand this!

Bendihorse

Hellrazer wrote: »

Members of my wifes family were and still are involved in Fox hunting and to be totally honest some of the things I saw there are exactly what has me so anti fox hunting.So I am making an informed decision as to why it should be banned.

You are perfectly entitled to your well informed opinion Hellraizer, as long as its based on something you have seen with your own two eyes and formed your opinion based on that. I am not asking everyone to be pro fox hunting, just to make an informed decision based on fact. I think that its a crazy idea to ask people to vote on something they have no idea about. Like the bloody Niece treaty, id say up to 50% of people who voted on that didn't have the foggiest what they were voting for, so they voted no to be on the safe side.

peasant

Vegeta wrote: »

Not being efficient is no reason to ban anything I'm afraid so you lose.

It is when it is uneccesarily cruel

In your poorly educated opinion after all I doubt you have even tried to shoot one with a rifle.

Correct, I have never shot at a fox and I don't posess a rifle. But as the best shot in my regiment during my stint in the army ...given a rifle and some refresher practise on moving targets, I bet you I could kill one with the first shot

So this is not necessarily true, people do miss, rifles lose zero and foxes are tough targets, so a fox could live for days in agony with a gut or snout wound.

Sounds to me like a good few people need their gun licences revoked

I have never ridden a horse and live in an estate. I have seen many hunts on foot and shoot foxes myself so have a great deal of first hand knowledge but am not a member of any horse back hunt group. I am standng up for the right of the hunters to hunt on

Och ..poor you ...they wouldn't let you into their elite circle, did they?
And now you're trying to rack up browny points by fighting the good fight agains those stubborn "animal lovers" ...Well I hope it works out for ya

cowzerp

Bendihorse wrote: »

You are perfectly entitled to your well informed opinion Hellraizer, as long as its based on something you have seen with your own two eyes and formed your opinion based on that.

So we must go and kill a fox before our judgement is worthwhile, if everyone done that the fox population would be extinct, there is a video at the start of this which i watched with my own 2 eyes, i've also watched more unfortunately, the purpose of the hunt is fun otherwise they would just cull them in a more humane way, 1 shot 1 kill. and if it was for the reasons they say they would only shoot old or sick animals, and we know this is not what goes on..even when they get away there dug up and killed, no chance given..

Bendihorse

peasant wrote: »

Correct, I have never shot at a fox and I don't posess a rifle. But as the best shot in my regiment during my stint in the army ...given a rifle and some refresher practise on moving targets, I bet you I could kill one with the first shot

Thats exactly his point i think, not everyone out there that has a gun SHOULD have one, and im pretty sure that most of them would not have had the firearm training that you have. Maybe you SHOULD get a gun licence and start hunting Foxes!

peasant wrote: »

Och ..poor you ...they wouldn't let you into their elite circle, did they?
And now you're trying to rack up browny points by fighting the good fight agains those stubborn "animal lovers"

There it is again, bashing on the basis of opinions of gentry and eliteism being participants in the sport, is this really part of the argument and not just the animals?

togster

cowzerp wrote: »

even when they get away there dug up and killed, no chance given..

Simply not true. You have watched some videos made by who? An independant party? You are grossly mis-informed.

Bendihorse

cowzerp wrote: »

So we must go and kill a fox before our judgement is worthwhile, if everyone done that the fox population would be extinct, there is a video at the start of this which i watched with my own 2 eyes, i've also watched more unfortunately, the purpose of the hunt is fun otherwise they would just cull them in a more humane way, 1 shot 1 kill. and if it was for the reasons they say they would only shoot old or sick animals, and we know this is not what goes on..even when they get away there dug up and killed, no chance given..

Sorry Cowzerp, i think you KNOW that is not what i meant when i said experience it, i meant get up off your arse away from Youtube and propaganda and go out and watch the hunt and how it operates. Im not going to comment further.

Also, i have NEVER been on a hunt where the animal was dug out. When hes gone to ground hes gone to ground, game over. This practice is seen as outdated and does not happen in 99% of hunts, it has died out with the older generation of hunts masters.

MsFifers

Bendihorse wrote: »

You are perfectly entitled to your well informed opinion Hellraizer, as long as its based on something you have seen with your own two eyes and formed your opinion based on that. I am not asking everyone to be pro fox hunting, just to make an informed decision based on fact.

It is a false premise to say you actually have to experience something to appraise yourself of the facts. I can read and research something and make an informed choice without actually doing it myself. I don't need to kill a criminal to know I am against the death penalty.

Jak

Some good points, nice post Bendi.

I generally avoid these debates, but just wanted to throw in a few perspectives.

Foxes are cute animals, but they are animals. Fox Hunts, and in the broader spectrum hunting, is a significant industry in this country and in part contributes directly to the livelihood of many human beings. Many more foxes may be shot than hunted, but the hunt generates far more economic activity and therefore has a major upside to it... Albeit not for the fox in question.

People are dismissing the pleasure some obtain from fox hunting as bad, evil etc. and no justification for the act. Again, human enjoyment of this nature, whether you agree with it or otherwise, has a positive value to be accounted.

I imagine in a formal analysis, when these two factors are weighed against the potential death of a single fox on a given day, the fox will probably lose out.

In general, animals hunted in this fashion, or birds hunted in a driven shoot have an infinitely higher chance of survival compared with anything bought in a supermarket. These animals often have a far higher quality of life than things bought in a supermarket also, as they live in the next level up from free range.

In relation to vegans and vegetarians posting on this issue, I fully respect someones choice in this regard, I also think it shows great culinary ingenuity. However, I believe it is really a great luxury to be in a position to make such a choice about your diet. Human beings are omnivores and will remain so. Mankind owes much of its success to the successful exploitation of a wonderful renewable resource - Other animals. Don't lose sight of the chain here.

Finally, the cat thing is quite funny. Whatever about attaching bells and locking them indoors (which I do not agree with, I think animals should be treated as animals and allowed their normal behaviour) - but I was wondering do you feed your cat meat? Perhaps the Whiskas rabbit?

Why not support free range living and just let the cat hunt and feed itself?

cowzerp

togster wrote: »

Simply not true. You have watched some videos made by who? An independant party? You are grossly mis-informed.

Oh so because it does not happen everytime im wrong? the videos are proof that it goes on, the fox obviosly does not always run down a hole, anyway it was asked earlier what would be wrong with doing a drag with a humanely killed fox so the fox is not put through hell..

peasant

Bendihorse wrote: »

There it is again, bashing on the basis of opinions of gentry and eliteism being participants in the sport, is this really part of the argument and not just the animals?

Yes, I have to admit, I do carry a bit of a grudge there ...during all the runnings-in I've had so far with foxhunters (over such trivial matters as parking in my driveway unasked and scaring my dogs) I have been met with elitist put-down arguments ...basically I was told as a nobody and a foreigner I better shut up and go back from where I came.

So ...from what I have seen with my own two eyes (something that seems to be very important in relation to foxhunting) that crowd is riddled with elitist assholes. ...and this one is from my own experience.(another thing you seem to place so much emphasis on)

Bendihorse

MsFifers wrote: »

It is a false premise to say you actually have to experience something to appraise yourself of the facts. I can read and research something and make an informed choice without actually doing it myself. I don't need to kill a criminal to know I am against the death penalty.

Going on what hellraiser said, i dont think hes ever directly participated in a hunt himself but has seen what goes on with his own eyes, or certainly has some perspective outside of the medias portrayal of hunting. Sure you can read up and make a decesion based on that, but its based on second hand information.

Its very easy to go out some sunday and follow a hunt on foot and observe the proceedings on the day, this is what im advocating, not actually participating in the hunt.

togster

cowzerp wrote: »

Oh so because it does not happen everytime im wrong? the videos are proof that it goes on

Where was the video taken? In Ireland? Because as far as i am aware its forbidden but i might be wrong.

cowzerp wrote: »

anyway it was asked earlier what would be wrong with doing a drag with a humanely killed fox so the fox is not put through hell..

I don't see anything wrong with that. But i don't see why i should have to. I see nothing wrong with hunting a fox. (you've probably guessed that).
So for me it isn't appealing. Drag hunts don't offer the same degree of uncertainty. Many days when we hunt we don't get a scent at all. Some days we do. You still have to offer me a reason as to why i should drag. I don't accept your reasonings of cruelty etc so it is hard for me to accept.


I would also like to ask what the anti's would do with the thousands around the country if a ban is implemented?

cowzerp

Elitist is sure, they dont represent the normal people of ireland, remind me of aristrocratic upper class british to be honest, i think thats why the old man called them black and tans on 1 of the earlier posts..

Hellrazer

Jak wrote: »

Fox Hunts, and in the broader spectrum hunting, is a significant industry in this country and in part contributes directly to the livelihood of many human beings. Many more foxes may be shot than hunted, but the hunt generates far more economic activity and therefore has a major upside to it... Albeit not for the fox in question.

Christ I really cant believe in this part of your post--Now you lot are trying to justify it by saying it contributes to the local economy.
Just like whaling and the fur trade so :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Sure its alright to do it then if it contributes to the economy.
More bull**** from the pro hunting lobby.

peasant

Hellrazer wrote: »

Christ I really cant believe in this part of your post--Now you lot are trying to justify it by saying it contributes to the local economy.
Just like whaling and the fur trade so :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Sure its alright to do it then if it contributes to the economy.
More bull**** from the pro hunting lobby.

If in doubt, pull the "it creates X amount of jobs"-card

togster

cowzerp wrote: »

Elitist is sure, they dont represent the normal people of ireland, remind me of aristrocratic upper class british to be honest, i think thats why the old man called them black and tans on 1 of the earlier posts..

Such a load of bull****. You don't know what you are talking about. I could make sweeping statements about your kind too but i won't. I know better than that, have lived in the real worl and actually am capable of making my own opinion based upon my interactions with an individual. If anyone sounds elitist i would sugget it is you. No where in this thread have i seen anyone refer to anti's as scum or scumbags blah blah. Because if you want to start we can.... I know anti's who sliced a huntsmans horses tendons but i'm not stupid enough to believe that all are hypocritical, hippies with nothing better to do. Or the time i was assaulted by another anti with a large branch and i can go on. So keep your generalisations to yourself please.

Also what would you do with all the hounds? Re-home them?

Bendihorse

peasant wrote: »

Yes, I have to admit, I do carry a bit of a grudge there ...during all the runnings-in I've had so far with foxhunters (over such trivial matters as parking in my driveway unasked and scaring my dogs) I have been met with elitist put-down arguments ...basically I was told as a nobody and a foreigner I better shut up and go back from where I came.

So ...from what I have seen with my own two eyes (something that seems to be very important in relation to foxhunting) that crowd is riddled with elitist assholes. ...and this one is from my own experience.(another thing you seem to place so much emphasis on)

How did you apporach the person on the matter? It may have been obvious from your body language that you resented their presence - outside of them being parked in your driveway.

Im not excusing anybody being rude here, but is it possible that you may not have been the most polite in your approach - beeing that your are anti hunting? If not i stand corrected.

I dont like snobs as much as the next, but i honeslty dont meet them when im hunting, its all farmers, farmers daughters and sons, horse dealers and the like. There are very few gentrified people still in existance in ireland.