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Should the Government ban fox-hunting?

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    #62
    Blisterman
    Registered Users Posts: 7,457 ✭✭✭Blisterman


    Rossibaby wrote: »
    now your saying foxes have less of a right to life because humans dont use them or rear them.i dont really need to defeat this arguement it speaks for itself.all animals that are not used by humans in the primary sector are fair game lol

    Yes. That is what I'm saying. Would you support a ban on mousetraps or insect spray?
    Foxes are overpopulated vermin.


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    #63
    Genghiz Cohen
    Registered Users Posts: 7,182 ✭✭✭Genghiz Cohen


    If you don't know anything about the subject, you shouldn't comment.
    I have seen 1 person here who wants hunting banned and said they were at a fox hunt.

    That gives that person a reasonable foundation on which to lay his opinions, everyone else that I have seen is being silly and repeating what they hear in the tabloids.

    Why don't you stop human suffering first? There are a lot of charities out there screaming for money.

    http://trocaire.org]Here.
    Or here.
    These are good places to start.


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    #64
    Red Hand
    Registered Users Posts: 4,986 ✭✭✭Red Hand


    Blisterman wrote: »
    Yes. That is what I'm saying. Would you support a ban on mousetraps or insect spray?
    Foxes are overpopulated vermin.

    So are most domesticated cats.;)


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    #65
    Rossibaby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 421 ✭✭Rossibaby


    the priority is to get a better past-time...perhaps reading will suffice,books are wonderful you can learn things and educate yourself from them.

    just like to extend my thanks to all who fox hunt...the countryside would be like no-mans-land without ye

    [even though not that many foxes are killed on a hunt,barely any] it contributes very little to what you call helping the biosphere.but in my arguement on the other hand,one fox killed is too many


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    #66
    It wasn't me!
    Registered Users Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »
    So are most domesticated cats.;)

    Grand so, you get the bridle, I'll rev up the hounds.


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    #67
    Doctor DooM
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 25,868 Mod ✭✭✭✭Doctor DooM


    Genghiz Cohen wrote: »
    If you don't know anything about the subject, you shouldn't comment.
    I have seen 1 person here who wants hunting banned and said they were at a fox hunt.

    That gives that person a reasonable foundation on which to lay his opinions, everyone else that I have seen is being silly and repeating what they hear in the tabloids.

    Why don't you stop human suffering first? There are a lot of charities out there screaming for money.

    http://trocaire.org]Here.
    Or here.
    These are good places to start.

    Um... by that logic, we should all go to BNP rallies before we decide they're rascist gits?


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    #68
    Blisterman
    Registered Users Posts: 7,457 ✭✭✭Blisterman


    SDooM wrote: »
    The argument was that dogs should be allowed do what they "do": you're making my point for me, its a silly argument.

    Well that's why farmers protect their sheep by keeping them fenced.

    I wouldn't blame a dog for killing a sheep. I just meant that it's not a fair comparison.


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    #69
    Doctor DooM
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 25,868 Mod ✭✭✭✭Doctor DooM


    Blisterman wrote: »
    Well that's why farmers protect their sheep by keeping them fenced.

    I wouldn't blame a dog for killing a sheep. I just meant that it's not a fair comparison.

    But it is: the argument was that the dogs should be allowed do whats in their nature; you now seem to agree with me that its not the dogs fault what their natural drives are, but that they should not be allowed to engage in it?

    I dont blame a dog for killing a sheep: I don't blame a dog for killing a fox: I blame the people that allow it to happen.


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    #70
    It wasn't me!
    Registered Users Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    A dog's owner is responsible for moderating its behaviour. Hunters are responsible for moderating, and far from stopping, the adverse effect foxes have on the countryside.


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    #71
    AngryBadger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,251 ✭✭✭AngryBadger


    No.

    Not unless someone can present me an argument that isn't based on sensationalist vitriol, but rather logistical data as to why this is a feasible, and practically beneficial objective.


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    #72
    Doctor DooM
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 25,868 Mod ✭✭✭✭Doctor DooM


    It wasn't me! wrote: »
    A dog's owner is responsible for moderating its behaviour. Hunters are responsible for moderating, and far from stopping, the adverse effect foxes have on the countryside.

    Really? Was it you who said they only kill 1% of the foxes destroyedin the thread in the animal forum? Then they aren't doing a very good job of it.


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    #73
    Rossibaby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 421 ✭✭Rossibaby


    SDooM wrote: »
    But it is: the argument was that the dogs should be allowed do whats in their nature; you now seem to agree with me that its not the dogs fault what their natural drives are, but that they should not be allowed to engage in it?

    I dont blame a dog for killing a sheep: I don't blame a dog for killing a fox: I blame the people that allow it to happen.


    well said


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    #74
    Genghiz Cohen
    Registered Users Posts: 7,182 ✭✭✭Genghiz Cohen


    AngryBadger wrote: »
    No.

    Not unless someone can present me an argument that isn't based on sensationalist vitriol, but rather logistical data as to why this is a feasible, and practically beneficial objective.
    :)
    http://www.vet-wildlifemanagement.org.uk/hunting-with-hounds/a-veterinary-opinion.html


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    #75
    It wasn't me!
    Registered Users Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    SDooM wrote: »
    Really? Was it you who said they only kill 1% of the foxes destroyedin the thread in the animal forum? Then they aren't doing a very good job of it.

    I meant hunters in the broader sense, those on horseback, those with shovels and those with rifles.


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    #76
    Rossibaby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 421 ✭✭Rossibaby


    SDooM wrote: »
    Um... by that logic, we should all go to BNP rallies before we decide they're rascist gits?

    im a republican socialist and as you can imagine they re what i woulkd refer to as the enemy...but i champion free speech and have heard them speak on many occasions...that is how i form my opinions...not from prejudices


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    #77
    Red Hand
    Registered Users Posts: 4,986 ✭✭✭Red Hand


    Genghiz Cohen wrote: »
    :)
    http://www.vet-wildlifemanagement.org.uk/hunting-with-hounds/a-veterinary-opinion.html

    From the above page:

    "Wild animals almost certainly lack the complex brain and mental abilities necessary to perceive the human concepts of fear and death".

    Oh really, Sherlock? They don't percieve fear, eh? Now, that's a laugh!

    Jaysus, what sh*te.


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    #78
    Doctor DooM
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 25,868 Mod ✭✭✭✭Doctor DooM


    Rossibaby wrote: »
    im a republican socialist and as you can imagine they re what i woulkd refer to as the enemy...but i champion free speech and have heard them speak on many occasions...that is how i form my opinions...not from prejudices

    you, as an Irishman, physically went to a BNP meet? Not read or heard about it?

    If thats true I salute your bravery.


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    #79
    Rossibaby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 421 ✭✭Rossibaby


    i think it means they dont percieve it on the same complex scale that humans can.humans have more mental capabilities thats a fact.all it was saying that animals instincts dont occupy the same plain


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    #80
    Genghiz Cohen
    Registered Users Posts: 7,182 ✭✭✭Genghiz Cohen


    Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »
    From the above page:

    "Wild animals almost certainly lack the complex brain and mental abilities necessary to perceive the human concepts of fear and death".

    Oh really, Sherlock? They don't percieve fear, eh? Now, that's a laugh!

    Jaysus, what sh*te.

    Yes and please link us to the studies you have preformed that prove the contrary. Or a link to the college where you got your veterinary degree, that should do just fine.

    EDIT: The BNP (who I have never heard of before the above post) have their ideals and beliefs, maybe they are gits, maybe not, from what I've read in wikipedia I don't agree with them but do you see me trying to get their organisation banned?


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    #81
    Doctor DooM
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 25,868 Mod ✭✭✭✭Doctor DooM


    Genghiz Cohen wrote: »
    Yes and please link us to the studies you have preformed that prove the contrary. Or a link to the college where you got your veterinary degree, that should do just fine.

    Are you seriously debating whether animals can feel fear or not?


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    #82
    togster
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,931 ✭✭✭togster


    I wasn't going to fuel this argument but antway here it goes...:p

    I am sick to my teeth of people who know next to nothing about hunting claiming all sorts of bull. I will not deny that it is primarily a source of enjoyment for thousands of people in this country. A welcome by-product of this is vermin control.

    Foxes are vermin and predators. I have seen the aftermath of a fox kill in a pheasant pin and they are indiscriminate killers.
    I have also seen lambs killed by foxes.
    And yes i have seen foxes both shot and killed by dogs. The foxes are always killed outright by a group of hounds.

    In one cover last year 8-10 foxes were flushed from a cover. For me that is over-population. The area was a big sheep farming area.


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    #83
    Rossibaby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 421 ✭✭Rossibaby


    SDooM wrote: »
    you, as an Irishman, physically went to a BNP meet? Not read or heard about it?

    If thats true I salute your bravery.

    no mate i havent gone to a cosy little bnp meeting like in a wee hall...i have however heard public speeches,seens little nazi **** talking ****e lol they are actually very very stpuid hte younger members and make little sense....well i suppose not many neo-nazi's do....ask any member why they hate black people and if you get an educated well thought out answer i would eat my hat!but i hate the irish nationalist party aswell they are fascist idiots but luckily their membership is about 6 people:p


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    #84
    Doctor DooM
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 25,868 Mod ✭✭✭✭Doctor DooM


    togster wrote: »
    I wasn't going to fuel this argument but antway here it goes...:p

    I am sick to my teeth of people who know next to nothing about hunting claiming all sorts of bull. I will not deny that it is primarily a source of enjoyment for thousands of people in this country. A welcome by-product of this is vermin control.

    Foxes are vermin and predators. I have seen the aftermath of a fox kill in a pheasant pin and they are indiscriminate killers.
    I have also seen lambs killed by foxes.
    And yes i have seen foxes both shot and killed by dogs. The foxes are always killed outright by a group of hounds.

    In one cover last year 8-10 foxes were flushed from a cover. For me that is over-population. The area was a big sheep farming area.

    None of which counters what the other side are saying:

    1) There are more effective and humane methods of vermin control.

    2) Enjoying scaring an animal to death is not a reason to do it.


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    #85
    Genghiz Cohen
    Registered Users Posts: 7,182 ✭✭✭Genghiz Cohen


    SDooM wrote: »
    Are you seriously debating whether animals can feel fear or not?

    I'm asking you can you prove they do.


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    #86
    Rossibaby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 421 ✭✭Rossibaby


    SDooM wrote: »
    Are you seriously debating whether animals can feel fear or not?

    they can...but a more basic level of it


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    #87
    Red Hand
    Registered Users Posts: 4,986 ✭✭✭Red Hand


    Genghiz Cohen wrote: »
    I'm asking you can you prove they do.

    LMAO!:D

    God, go back into Discworld man, looks like fantasy is where you belong...


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    #88
    Degsy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,397 ✭✭✭✭Degsy


    An end to fox hunting and field sports will mean an end to the countryside and most of the creatures in it.The countryside is maintained for man's benefit and not the other way round.People who dont understand this are missing the whole point.


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    #89
    Doctor DooM
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 25,868 Mod ✭✭✭✭Doctor DooM


    Rossibaby wrote: »
    no mate i havent gone to a cosy little bnp meeting like in a wee hall...i have however heard public speeches,seens little nazi **** talking ****e lol they are actually very very stpuid hte younger members and make little sense....well i suppose not many neo-nazi's do....ask any member why they hate black people and if you get an educated well thought out answer i would eat my hat!but i hate the irish nationalist party aswell they are fascist idiots but luckily their membership is about 6 people:p

    Well see... tbh I listen to people who defend hunting and they sound exactly like the nazis you are describing. A point which you have hit on, and is interesting, is this: Our views are formed on the resources we have access to. Ultimately, you cannot know the ultimate truth: it is your responsibility to try and find out as much as you can about a subject and when you are happy. form an opinion.

    I have never seen one letter, programme,word or hunt ( and I have seen one, in passing) which convinces me that in all honestly, deep down, a hunt comes down to people enjoying animal cruelty. Any other fringe benefits are just that.


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    #90
    togster
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,931 ✭✭✭togster


    SDooM wrote: »
    None of which counters what the other side are saying:

    1) There are more effective and humane methods of vermin control.

    2) Enjoying scaring an animal to death is not a reason to do it.

    Name the more effective methods? Have you witnessed a fox being gassed? Poisoned? Shot? Killed by hounds?

    I don't hunt because i enjoy scaring a fox to death. Have you ever witnessed a fox being pursued by a group of hounds? He doesn't run yelping and shaking with his tail between his legs. He runs to get away. That is his sole purpose.

    I have seen foxes leisurely trot across a field with hounds in it. And i have also seen one speeding away from baying hounds. Have you ever witnessed a fox being chased?


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    #91
    Doctor DooM
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 25,868 Mod ✭✭✭✭Doctor DooM


    Genghiz Cohen wrote: »
    I'm asking you can you prove they do.

    Try saying the word "vet" to my dog and you will see fear.


This discussion has been closed.
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