No Confidence Referedum?

Sleepy

What are people's thoughts on giving the general populace the ability to hold a vote of no-confidence in a sitting Taoiseach?

Obviously we'd need to bring in some form of petition requiring a minimum number of signatures to arrange this in order to prevent it becoming farcical but with most polls showing that the majority of the population don't trust Bertie Ahern surely we should have the right to call on him for his resignation?

It can be argued that the General Election provides this opportunity but I don't believe it really does. Our electoral setup doesn't allow us to choose our leader, merely individuals to represent a local area. How many people would be aware of how their TD would vote in a leadership contest within their party?

DadaKopf

Our electoral setup doesn't allow us to choose our leader, merely individuals to represent a local area.

Actually, our electoral system fuses the national with the local. The two levels are confused. This suits the largest parties, and particularly FF; FF supporters see the party as identical to the state. This has more in common with post-colonial Africa than it does a European democracy.

The problem with these polls - and they show this - is that while people may no longer believe Bertie, they trust the party (or they recognise that the party delivers personal benefits through its command of the state). The main opposition, Fine Gael, and its supporters want Bertie out and do not trust the party because Fianna Fáil is not Fine Gael. The other remaining parties that count, well, Labour and maybe the Greens, at least have some rational basis for their opposition to Bertie and FF.

I mean, I think he should get the chop not on the basis that he *is* or *is not* actually corrupt, but that his explanations lead me to think he's lying, and therefore cannot be trusted to lead the country. The larger issue is creating a culture of zero tolerance for corruption in Ireland. How we do that is another matter, but this is an extremely potent test case. If he went, FF would continue to rule and sally forth, relatively unscathed because: FF is the state.

Do you know that Brian Cowen, when defending Mary Harney the day before the vote of (no) confidence said about the Dáil:

"It is for this House to represent citizens, not resisters of change."

So lemme get this straight, Bri, those who disagree with the government (FF, really) are not citizens. I thought I lived in a republic, not Ceaucescu's Romania.

It's also worth noting that the establishment of the Criminal Assets Bureau is likely to confiscate Gilligan's and others' estates which are worth well in excess of the cost of the tribunals themselves.

murphaph

I am totally frustrated with the electoral system here. I am an urban dweller and I believe we still have a left over antipathy towards urban dwellers and cities themselves hanging around since the bad oul brits left. Our political system seems to me to be dominated by people from the country while the country doesn't generate the feckin money, the cities do. Perhaps it's also to do with so many urban dwellers being themselves not far removed from the country.

I think we have policies tailored to keep minorities in remote back of beyond places happy while the urban masses are forgotten about and left to sit in gridlock 24/7.

I would like a total overhaul of the system, perhaps dropping PRSTV altogether. To my mind, the cities should have a number of representatives pretty much exactly proportional to their population with the rest of the countryside being represented by the remainder of the representatives divided up.

Ireland used to be an agrarian dominated society with all the wealth in the farms and associated sectors. ireland has changed and urban dwellers now generate the wealth. The political system needs to catch up.The county councils should be totally reformed starting with boundary changes to reflect the reality on the ground. The number of councils should be reduced to eliminate duplication of services. Regional authorities roughly corresponding to the provinces might be an idea and one would hope to see fewer disgraceful whore like planning policies with swathes of countryside destroyed in an effort to increase the little council's rates and/or funding from central government.

The whole thing is in a bad way IMO. it will never change though as voter apathy is way too high, especially in towns and cities.

gurramok

Dadkopf, the Greens are pro-FF.

They are the ones who can the give the quickest shove to FF in power. They won't because it suits them in the pocket.

Agree with murphaph.
Just look at the Drugs minister Pat Carey for example. He is from the back end of Kerry, represents Dublin NW and lives in a small Co. Meath town!!

Yeh, our Drugs minister is on the frontline alright!

Victor

DadaKopf wrote: »

The main opposition, Fine Gael, and its supporters want Bertie out and do not trust the party because Fianna Fáil is not Fine Gael.

Note quite, there is a strong element of:

Fianna Fáil do not trust Fine Gael because Fine Gael is not Fianna Fáil.

Fine Gael do not trust Fianna Fáil because Fianna Fáil is Fianna Fáil (and not Fine Gael).

DadaKopf

Victor wrote: »

Note quite, there is a strong element of:

Fianna Fáil do not trust Fine Gael because Fine Gael is not Fianna Fáil.

Fine Gael do not trust Fianna Fáil because Fianna Fáil is Fianna Fáil (and not Fine Gael).

Your logic is flawless!

AckwelFoley

We already have a system in place.

Its called a general election

The people have voted.

mikemac

murphaph wrote: »

I would like a total overhaul of the system, perhaps dropping PRSTV altogether. To my mind, the cities should have a number of representatives pretty much exactly proportional to their population with the rest of the countryside being represented by the remainder of the representatives divided up.

Huh?
Constituencies elect a number of TD's based on their population. Some are 3, 4 or 5 seaters. So it is a fair system
You say rural areas are overrepresented but Tipperary have two constituencies and Dublin has far, far more than this due to larger population.
The system is far and balanced as it is

murphaph

micmclo wrote: »

Huh?
Constituencies elect a number of TD's based on their population. Some are 3, 4 or 5 seaters. So it is a fair system
You say rural areas are overrepresented but Tipperary have two constituencies and Dublin has far, far more than this due to larger population.
The system is far and balanced as it is

You're right, but wrong at the same time. The system has a MINIMUM of of a 3 seater, so mickey mouse (no disrespect intended) places Like Leitrim (pop 26k) had until the last election 3 seats and up until the last general election my own constituency with a population of 52,676 had 3 also. the system is biased in favour of sparsely populated (read: rural) places. They jigged aorund with it a bit but the minimum seat rule means that rural areas will tend to be overepresented.

Zaphod

2002 GE:
Dublin West: Electorate 52,676; Seats 3; (Total Potential) Voters per TD 17558
Sligo-Leitrim: Electorate 70,460; Seats 4; Voters per TD 17615

2007 GE:
Dublin West: Elecorate 52,193; Seats 3; Voters per TD 17397
Sligo Leitrim North: Electorate 57,517; Searts 3; Voters per TD 19172

The constituency with the smallest quota in the 2007 GE was Dublin South East, encompassing rural backwaters in Dublin 6 such as Ranelagh (no disrespect intended), with 15867 voters per TD.

http://electionsireland.org/results/general/index.cfm

gurramok

snyper wrote: »

The people have voted.

Some would say conned hence a democratic deficiency!

murphaph

The profitable cities should have an elected mayor with tax raising powers and control for all aspects of things such as transport.

Everyone knows that the political parties pander to the counties who simply don't produce the goods economically and the urban dwellers are largely forgotten about, despite making the money to send to these places.

brianthebard

murphaph wrote: »

I am totally frustrated with the electoral system here. I am an urban dweller and I believe we still have a left over antipathy towards urban dwellers and cities themselves hanging around since the bad oul brits left. Our political system seems to me to be dominated by people from the country while the country doesn't generate the feckin money, the cities do. Perhaps it's also to do with so many urban dwellers being themselves not far removed from the country.

If you ask anyone from the country they'll say its the other way around. Everything's about dublin. What you are referring to sleepy is popular referendum, a la the 1922 free state constitution. Great document.

Edit: also murph, leitrim doesn't even have a td, north or south, so you can hardly claim its overrepresented.

murphaph

brianthebard wrote: »

If you ask anyone from the country they'll say its the other way around.

To me the 'country' is not "outside dublin". The likes of Cork get shafted just as much if not more than Dublin. The cities need to unite!

Anyway, I find it hard to listen to people from unprofitable counties complain that dublin gets this and that and they get nothing when the CSO figures clearly show more money is spent in their counties than are generated by them. that money comes from Dublin, Cork, Waterford etc..

brianthebard

If a quarter of the population live in one county/city, then its ineviteable that some of "their money" will have to be spent elsewhere. Dublin is getting four cancer centres, cork and galway one each. Sligo gets? none. The whole of the country north of the Dublin-Galway line gets? none. zip. Not one cancer centre. And you claim that we have it easy?

murphaph

brianthebard wrote: »

If a quarter of the population live in one county/city, then its ineviteable that some of "their money" will have to be spent elsewhere. Dublin is getting four cancer centres, cork and galway one each. Sligo gets? none. The whole of the country north of the Dublin-Galway line gets? none. zip. Not one cancer centre. And you claim that we have it easy?

Well, you do get more money spent in your county than it generates (by some margin). It's not self sufficient and is subsidised by others. What more do you want? A University or something?

Dublin does indeed have a quarter of the population-doesn't have anywhere near a quarter of the spending though and all those government departments that administer the WHOLE country pay ZERO rates to our city council for their large office blocks.

gurramok

brianthebard wrote: »

If a quarter of the population live in one county/city, then its ineviteable that some of "their money" will have to be spent elsewhere. Dublin is getting four cancer centres, cork and galway one each. Sligo gets? none. The whole of the country north of the Dublin-Galway line gets? none. zip. Not one cancer centre. And you claim that we have it easy?

Maybe they're expected to goto Northern Ireland instead?

As its said, if you live in an sparsely populated area, you can't expect services to go to you but you have to go where the services are serviced to where most people are.

oscarBravo

Boys'n'girls: read the subject line before posting again. Ta.

gurramok

Sleepy wrote: »

What are people's thoughts on giving the general populace the ability to hold a vote of no-confidence in a sitting Taoiseach?

Obviously we'd need to bring in some form of petition requiring a minimum number of signatures to arrange this in order to prevent it becoming farcical but with most polls showing that the majority of the population don't trust Bertie Ahern surely we should have the right to call on him for his resignation?

It can be argued that the General Election provides this opportunity but I don't believe it really does. Our electoral setup doesn't allow us to choose our leader, merely individuals to represent a local area. How many people would be aware of how their TD would vote in a leadership contest within their party?

Whats the minimum(number) signature petition to allow this?..100,000?

AckwelFoley

gurramok wrote: »

Some would say conned hence a democratic deficiency!

3 terms in a row?

No.