Should Rafa go?

cson

As an Arsenal fan I only have to look back at the last two seasons, we we're in the exact same position. The difference between Arsenal last year and Liverpool this year? Wenger has unswerving loyalty from the board (and rightly so) and Arsenal had youngsters coming through.

Liverpool are playing an ageing defence - Carra, Hyypia and Finnan are getting on in years. Personally (and this isn't just a knee jerk reaction from the match tonight) I think that Jamie Carragher is in decline. Himself and Hyypia are just not good enough for a side with title aspirations. I think Woodgate would have been an excellent purchase for Liverpool in this case.

Now, Benitez has a Champions League under his belt and the owners undermining has destabilised the club somewhat imo. Lack of respect. By all accounts Liverpool could challenge for the Premiership beyond February next year with a few acute summer signings.

Imo, 5 players are needed - A CB, Full Back, Winger and Striker.
Here's who I'd pick out;
CB: Woodgate
Full back: Not sure on this one tbh
Winger: Rafa Quaresma
Striker: David Villa

Mr Alan

Yes

Agree with pretty much everything that Cson has said, thats an excellent post, except the centre half thing, we just need young Agger back and ready. Carragher is someone exploited when he is, in a sense, covering for Hypia, with Agger there, that problem doesnt exist. Plus agger also is able to bring the ball out, play with it at his feet and really partake in the building of attacks in a way that the other two arent.

jank

Hell ya let him stay forever. He might produce a title winning side this side of the century.

Liverpool are lucky that there isnt a team outside the top three having a really good season. They will have to fight for the 4th but i think they will get it, just.

Also i dont get this crap talk about liverpool being unlucky. They were lucky at the start of the season when they were playing crap but coming out with wins. Now they are unlucky because they are losing/drawing games.

(Penny drops!?)

WAKE UP LIVERPOOL FANS. The team isnt good enough and Rafa wont get you a title either.

I agree with PHB. The fans are hoping for another european adventure but i think this time around it will be very short lived. If they get hammered at the San Siro then fans will turn.

Mr Alan

Yes

I love how fans of Arsenal and Utd think that because their team have been successful in the PL, they (the fans,who had nothing to do with the success of the team)are the ****ing ultimate authority of on who can and cant/ what tactics will and wont, be good enough to win a league.

i cant make up my mind if its hilarious or sad as ****.

kryogen

as a non pool fan i have to say no, i actually enjoy the thoughts of playing liverpoll with benitez in charge, give him a job for life! and all the dirk kuyts that he wants

Peyton Manning

Mr Alan wrote: »

I love how fans of Arsenal and Utd think that because their team have been successful in the PL, they (the fans,who had nothing to do with the success of the team)are the ****ing ultimate authority of on who can and cant/ what tactics will and wont, be good enough to win a league.

i cant make up my mind if its hilarious or sad as ****.

Maybe we've picked up on what tactics work having actually watched sides that have won the premier league as opposed to watching one who havent?

jank

i cant make up my mind if its hilarious or sad as ****.

Well there is a forum for that.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=127


However, most other fans live in the real world.

I love how you mr alan seem to be the sole authority on rafa? Do you know what he is up to? Cause the rest of us are lost. So please explain his genius or get your coat.

joe123

No (Liverpool fans)

Kanney wrote: »

No, from a Liverpool fan, No... And those 3 who said Yes (Liverpool Fans), really only look at results as a week and leave it, they don't see what he has done for the club and what he has yet to accomplish. Bandwagon supporters when we won the Champions League, my guess.

I said yes and in no way am i a bandwagon supporter. Ive supported liverpool since i first started watching football and ive done so through thick and thin.

It makes me laugh when people like you come out with comments like that. I only look at results as a week?.....yeah try going back ten games now. Not to mention some of the games we have won we played terrible. Think back to derby for example.

I think Rafa should go and im entitled to think that.Its houllier era all over again.

kryogen

Tusky wrote: »

Is this a joke ? Theres so much wrong with it.

In todays market, Mascherano is worth 17m. (Sissoko sold for 10, Carrick 17, Hargreaves 17, Anderson 17).
.

now there is something seriously wrong with your pricings there.... do i need to point out each individual one?

just start you off on the first one, sissoko. 8 million

not disputing masch's worth however, i think he is worth about 15 especially if its inclusive of wages!

Dont be at yourself

Yes

When Rafa was appointed just over 3 years ago, few would have given him a chance of winning either the league of the champions league for a good five years. Pretty much every Liverpool fan recognised that we were quite a long way off competing with Arsenal and Man Utd (and later, Chelsea) across all fronts.

The squad he inherited was also aging, overpaid and lacking in talent. Djimi Traore was a first team player, as was the likes of Danny Murphy, Vlad Smicer, Igor Biscan. He was forced to sell Michael Owen - one of our 2 big players, and forced to bring in Cisse - a player he obviously didnt rate.

Then, somehow, he managed to win the Champions League less than 12 months after arriving at the club. Rafa's greatest achievement also turned out to be his biggest cross to bear. That night in Istanbul, Rafa returned Liverpool to the top ranks of European Club Football - at least in the minds of the fans. In that amazing success, he perhaps raised expectations amongst the fans unrealistically. Despite the success, the squad was clearly a long way away from that of Chelsea, Man Utd or Arsenals'.

And so Rafa has to set about rebuilding. We all know the whos and hows, and it is safe to say that he made some bad buys along the way. However, he shipped his flops out quickly and often at a profit, and he managed to improve the whole squad immeasurably on a relative shoestring. Some will say that it would be better to buy one great player than two or three good squad players, but such was the state of our squad, that virtually everyone needed to be replaced.

3 and a half years on, and the squad is significantly better player for player. Our defence is now regarded as one of the best in Europe, and this is due in no small part to the emergence of Jamie Carragher The Central Defender under Benitez. Our central midfield is unrivalled in terms of class and in terms of depth. In Torres, it looks like we have the most clinical finisher at our club since the days of Fowler and Rush. The youth teams are full of promising youngsters.

Are we there yet? No. Player for player, we're still short of the top teams, but we've closed the gap and we're within touching distance. We lack the killer ball in the final third. Until January, we lacked defencive cover. We lack a prolific partner for Torres (though Arsenal and Chelea both rely on a single forward to a large extent)

Moreso, we lack belief. Off the pitch problems only amplify this. There's no doubt in my mind that both our form and league position would be better if it wasnt for the media storm that's engulfed the club since November.

Rafa undoubtedly has his shortcomings too, but they're not terminal. His willingness to chop and change systems may work well in Europe, but it hasnt deliver the consistancy needed to win the league. He can be a little negative in terms of playing style. However, both of these can simply be put down to trying to make the best of the players he has at his disposal. In Reina, Carra, Agger, Gerrard and Torres, he has shown that he will play his truly quality players constantly and in their preferred positions whenever possible.

My verdict? Give the man 5 years, as intended from the start. There's no question that the team has progressed under Benitez, and I firmly believe that he will get it right if he is given time, money and support from the club.

Mr Alan

Yes

jank wrote: »

I love how you mr alan seem to be the sole authority on rafa? Do you know what he is up to? Cause the rest of us are lost. So please explain his genius or get your coat.

No i dont know wat he is up to....but i do know that the players are not performing the way they should be and that is the reason we are not getting the results we should be. rafa has of course made mistakes....wat manager hasnt? but Rafa has also had great success in his time at Liverpool.

We have won the CL and FA cup in his time at the club.

Utd have won only the league-in the time Rafa has been at the club.

Arsenal have won an FA cup only.

Sure, sometimes i am mystified by Rafas selection of Kuyt and Kewell....but the simple fact is, anytime Babel has started a game, he has faded from it unbelievably quickley and been quite disappointing, and Crouch has been given plenty of chances against quite week opposition and failed to impress imo.

Rafa has kept faith with Kuyt, possibly because even when Kuyt doesnt score he offers a lot to the team, the same cannot really be said for Crouch.

Rafa should have his 5 years at least to get it right.

walshki

No (Liverpool fans)

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

My verdict? Give the man 5 years, as intended from the start. There's no question that the team has progressed under Benitez, and I firmly believe that he will get it right if he is given time, money and support from the club.

I think people are being a little too deep. Looking past the performances to how everything other than the football has progressed. The reality is at the start of this season we were shorter odds to win the league than Arsenal. We're now 100-1 and climbing (might as well be 10000000-1) and Arsenal are challenging. Stop believing it was completely unrealistic for Benitez to have delivered a side who could have challenged. He could have by now. At the start of the season we were singing about the best midfield in the world, where's our creativity now? Stop excusing and saying he's suffering from unrealistic expectations. I know the CL win was not our level at that time but even last season we were far better than this season. As another poster has said I think we're back at the Houllier days.

Here's an idea - why can't we have two managers, Rafa for the CL and Jose for the league? It'd be worth it for the joint press conferences alone.

ziggy

No

This post has been deleted.

Mr Alan

Yes

ziggy wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

That depends on how long your arms are!

and we've got Crouch!:D

Racing Flat

Much as I hate to say it, I think he possibly has to go. Regardless of the interference from above, lack of money or any of the other things out of Rafa's control, I think he is failing in one of managements main duties, ie picking the right players. Riise, Kuyt and Voronin, the majority agree here, shouldn't have been playing most of the season. the fact that he's not given his best 2 strikers Crouch and torres a run together. and playing both Kewell and Yossi, 2 lightweight wingers....
Ironic that it's about 3.5 years the same amount of time that Fergie had beofre the fans wanted his head and he turned it around, and while I would love something similar to happen at Liverpool, as long as he's not picking the right team and he doesn't have the support of the senior players, that's never going to happen.
Sorry Rafa.
Breaks my heart to say it.

Mr Alan

Yes

Racing Flat wrote: »

and he doesn't have the support of the senior players.

????????????????????

Helix

Mr Alan wrote: »

????????????????????

hes referring to when rafa moved gerrard to right side last night and both gerrard and carragher looked at each other and shook their heads in a "oh ffs" kinda way

that pretty much looks to me like hes lost the senior players support

Racing Flat

Mr Alan wrote: »

????????????????????

SG has had countless opportunities in post match interviews etc (when asked - 'did the team want to play well for the manager?') and he's brushed it aside ('It's not about the manager, it's about the team' etc etc).

Mr Alan

Yes

Helix wrote: »

hes referring to when rafa moved gerrard to right side last night and both gerrard and carragher looked at each other and shook their heads in a "oh ffs" kinda way

that pretty much looks to me like hes lost the senior players support

but that is only peoples opinion of wat happened.

perhaps they were looking at eachother and thinking-

christ i am ****ing bolloxed!

or

about time this aussie clown was subbed!

or

how are we still not winning this game?!

or

when are we gonna get out of this slump in form!

or

countless other things, none of which are as sensationalist as

we no longer support our manager or have faith in him.

Helix

no alan, it wasnt

seriously, stop being such a fanboy and look at something liverpool related objectively for a change

its blatantly obvious that it was none of those, it was obviously an "oh sweet jaysus christ wtf is he doing" moment

and can you blame them?

Mr Alan

Yes

lol, fanboy-i like it! i've certainly been called worse.

I havent seen the incident in question, i'll check it out tonight if i can find it online and let ya know, but i still think its insane to say he doesnt have the support of the senior players based on the shaking of 2 of their heads

whatawaster

Yes

Helix wrote: »

no alan, it wasnt

seriously, stop being such a fanboy and look at something liverpool related objectively for a change

its blatantly obvious that it was none of those, it was obviously an "oh sweet jaysus christ wtf is he doing" moment

and can you blame them?

i can blame them. Gerrard i could believe but Carra and Rafa are supposed to get on really well. Not to mention the fact that Lucas changed the game when he came on.

It's time for Gerrard to go back out on the right for a spell, and to give Lucas a couple of starts.

Throughout, when assessing where we were short and needing to make improvements in the summer, my priorities were:

1. Striker
2. L/R Winger
3. Left Back
4. Winger/Forward,

with numbers 1-3 being absolute necessities. I am, however, very concerned with Finnan's form throughout this season. I'd be tempted to stick a RB in at number 4 on that list.

I'm a little unhappy at the lack of faith Rafa has shown in his younger players. It's plain for all to see that Riise should never play for us again, and Insua has been remarkable for the reserves (i know the difference in levels is huge) and is in a different class technically to JAR. I would make the same point regarding Nemeth and Voronin/Kuyt (at the moment). The trouble is, we've got ourselves into such a dogfight for fourth that they're unlikely to get a chance this season. I'm convinced those two and a couple of others (Plessis, Huth and Pacheco) can make the grade. I just hope Rafa gives them their chance soon.

I still think we'll finish fourth, even if we lose all three away ties to Utd/Ars/Chelsea. The home ties with Everton and city are must win.

jameshayes

I was talking to a liverpool fan about the Rafa situation last night and it's actually something that baffles me...

In a time where if a manager loses 3 games in a season he is out on his ear(metaphorically) Rafa has complete back up from the fans, what does he have that other managers dont in the line of keeping the fans on his side? I just cant understand it..

Mr Alan

Yes

Football is rotten, when a manager is under pressure as easily as they are these days, there is something seriously wrong.

i am proud that liverpool fans are not following the same route other clubs have gone down.

also, a carling cup final, FA cup win, champions league final, world club championships final, and Champions league win in three years have also helped!

Helix

Mr Alan wrote: »

In a time where if a manager loses 3 games in a season he is out on his ear(metaphorically) Rafa has complete back up from the fans, what does he have that other managers dont in the line of keeping the fans on his side? I just cant understand it..

rafa has been made a martyr v the yanks, thats why

Mr Alan

Yes

goood shout Helix, lets just ignore in his first 3 years, the carling cup final, FA cup win, champions league final, world club championships final, and Champions league win as well as finishing above arsenal the last two seasons shall we?

missingtime

Yes

Gerrard had arguably his best season on on the wing so I don't know why they (Carra & Stevie) would be saying "ffs". Perhaps it was "ffs a bit late now".

I voted no because I dont want him to be sacked by the americans who stabbed him in the back but more because he deserves to get the rest of his 5 years to turn this around.

This season has been a weird one for liverpool fans due to all the turmoil in the board and we need to hopefully move on from this.

Liverpool have been very patient with managers and I dont think changing that now is going to make things better.

whatawaster

Yes

jameshayes wrote: »

I was talking to a liverpool fan about the Rafa situation last night and it's actually something that baffles me...

In a time where if a manager loses 3 games in a season he is out on his ear(metaphorically) Rafa has complete back up from the fans, what does he have that other managers dont in the line of keeping the fans on his side? I just cant understand it..

i think there are a few reasons

1. Liverpool have always been very loyal to their managers - even Houllier stayed far longer than he should have.
2. It's clear Rafa has a lot of love for the club and its fans and the feeling is mutual.
3. A lot of long term planning has been going on. at youth level we have some fantastic players and people want to give rafa a chance to bring them on, and a new manager might want to come in with his own ideas and start from scratch.
4. There aren't imo that many great managers out there. And almost none who you would think can overturn Arsenal and United (two of the best and longest serving managers we've ever seen) or Chelsea (with their endless pockets).
5. Finally and most importantly, i think Rafa has improved us a lot since he came in, though the table and our form at the moment may suggest otherwise. The Champions league achievements shouldn't be underplayed. We have a lot of young, potentially very good players for possibly the next 10 years (Reina, Agger, Skrtel, Lucas, Mascherano, Babel, Torres - and they're just the ones in the first team). It took SAF more than 4 seasons to win the league, and his record in those four years was far less consistent than Rafa's.

Helix

Mr Alan wrote: »

goood shout Helix, lets just ignore in his first 3 years, the carling cup final, FA cup win, champions league final, world club championships final, and Champions league win as well as finishing above arsenal the last two seasons shall we?

that means nothing now, youre in 7th place and dont look like winning any time soon. the players dont seem to believe in him or themselves, and theres a very real possibility of not qualifying for the champions league. if that happens you wont have money to spend in the summer without selling coz hicks and gillett sure as hell wont plough money in (especially considering you owe £30m a year INTEREST before the loan is even touched in terms of repayments). liverpool are teetering on the brink of a serious disaster, and benitez has to take the blame for some of that

hes spent far too much money, and has players of too high a quality to be struggling for a champions league spot. the blame for that is exclusively his

you can make all the excuses you want, but all youre doing is making yourself look a bit silly

Mr Alan

Yes

The question was asked why the fans were back Rafa, you reckon its cause he is being made a martyr, i pointed out actually that bar this season, which i think we will turn around, its because he has been very successful!?

If we dont qualify for the CL then a lot of fans opinions and Rafas job stability may change. but again, thats the future and probably wont happen, so lets not worry about that for the minurte.

redspider

Yes

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

When Rafa was appointed just over 3 years ago, few would have given him a chance of winning either the league of the champions league for a good five years. Pretty much every Liverpool fan recognised that we were quite a long way off competing with Arsenal and Man Utd (and later, Chelsea) across all fronts.

The squad he inherited was also aging, overpaid and lacking in talent. Djimi Traore was a first team player, as was the likes of Danny Murphy, Vlad Smicer, Igor Biscan. He was forced to sell Michael Owen - one of our 2 big players, and forced to bring in Cisse - a player he obviously didnt rate.

Then, somehow, he managed to win the Champions League less than 12 months after arriving at the club. Rafa's greatest achievement also turned out to be his biggest cross to bear. That night in Istanbul, Rafa returned Liverpool to the top ranks of European Club Football - at least in the minds of the fans. In that amazing success, he perhaps raised expectations amongst the fans unrealistically. Despite the success, the squad was clearly a long way away from that of Chelsea, Man Utd or Arsenals'.

And so Rafa has to set about rebuilding. We all know the whos and hows, and it is safe to say that he made some bad buys along the way. However, he shipped his flops out quickly and often at a profit, and he managed to improve the whole squad immeasurably on a relative shoestring. Some will say that it would be better to buy one great player than two or three good squad players, but such was the state of our squad, that virtually everyone needed to be replaced.

3 and a half years on, and the squad is significantly better player for player. Our defence is now regarded as one of the best in Europe, and this is due in no small part to the emergence of Jamie Carragher The Central Defender under Benitez. Our central midfield is unrivalled in terms of class and in terms of depth. In Torres, it looks like we have the most clinical finisher at our club since the days of Fowler and Rush. The youth teams are full of promising youngsters.

Are we there yet? No. Player for player, we're still short of the top teams, but we've closed the gap and we're within touching distance. We lack the killer ball in the final third. Until January, we lacked defencive cover. We lack a prolific partner for Torres (though Arsenal and Chelea both rely on a single forward to a large extent)

Moreso, we lack belief. Off the pitch problems only amplify this. There's no doubt in my mind that both our form and league position would be better if it wasnt for the media storm that's engulfed the club since November.

Rafa undoubtedly has his shortcomings too, but they're not terminal. His willingness to chop and change systems may work well in Europe, but it hasnt deliver the consistancy needed to win the league. He can be a little negative in terms of playing style. However, both of these can simply be put down to trying to make the best of the players he has at his disposal. In Reina, Carra, Agger, Gerrard and Torres, he has shown that he will play his truly quality players constantly and in their preferred positions whenever possible.

My verdict? Give the man 5 years, as intended from the start. There's no question that the team has progressed under Benitez, and I firmly believe that he will get it right if he is given time, money and support from the club.

I'd agree with most of that. This is season 4 we are on, right?

But the new owners and the stadium project are perhaps keeping him/the club/changes/development back, and also Benitez is not 'their man'. That can reduce a 5 year stint to a 4 year one. Overall, Rafa is far from perfect I think we all agree on that and he does make mistakes. But as a general principle, yes, a 5 year window is a sufficient time window for a manager to exert his influence on a club.

Redspider

Helix

if the whole thing with the yanks didnt happen, pool fans would be calling for his head right now. ive no doubt about that

Trampas

No (Liverpool fans)

Go (Liverpool fan)

I want premier league and he aint going to delivery it.

If we were challenging i would keep him but we are far away from that.

He has been given lots of money and bought bad.

Torres has been his best buy.

He wants Europe cause it looks better on his CV than premier league.

ike

No (Liverpool fans)

Been on the fence about this for a while now but eventually have to conceed he has to go - the premiership has to be the yardstick for progress and consistancy - its Rafa's 4th season and things have'nt improved on the premiership. At this stage we no longer seem to be confident of getting results against what we would have precieved to be 'lesser' opposition

whatawaster

Yes

Trampas wrote: »

He wants Europe cause it looks better on his CV than premier league.

Rubbish. If he only cared about his CV he would be with Real Madrid now.

Trampas

No (Liverpool fans)

whatawaster wrote: »

Rubbish. If he only cared about his CV he would be with Real Madrid now.

If he was this number of points behind barca he would been long gone

kida

posted this in the pool thread yesterday but its long gone now
http://www.goal.com/en/Articolo.aspx?ContenutoId=566844

'Liverpool manager Rafa Benitez believes that Premiership rivals Arsenal and Chelsea are envious of their record in the Champions League.

While the Reds’ fans have set the Premier league title as their number one priority, Benitez insists the club has made considerable progress during his time at the club.

"How many teams have won the Champions League? That is a massive trophy and it is more difficult to win than any other trophy" Benitez said.

"The Premier League is our target because we have won the Champions League. If you ask Chelsea or Arsenal what they would like to win most of all, I am sure they would say the Champions League.

"After 18 years without the Premier League we want to win it, but we have to be more consistent."

Liverpool face West Ham tonight at Upton Park looking for their first league win of 2008 after four consecutive draws.

"I came here to improve things and I still remember my first conversations about what we wanted to do here. In three years' time the target was to be contenders, and in three years we have won four trophies and played in seven finals" the Spanish manager said.

"So we have improved. We haven't been at the top level in the league for 15 years. Before I came we hadn't won the Champions League for 21 years.

"We are improving, but we cannot say it is enough" he added.'

He actually thinks the CL is harder to win.

Yes there was a 5 year plan but surely if year 4 has been a massive step back why bother giving him year 5?

~Rebel~

Yes

Trampas wrote: »

If he was this number of points behind barca he would been long gone

Yes, because Madrid is an absolute joke full of knee jerk reactions.

Thankfully LFC is not like that and anyone who wishes they were is nuts.

Helix

i dont think itd be a knee jerk reaction to sack rafa at this stage

~Rebel~

Yes

kida wrote: »

posted this in the pool thread yesterday but its long gone now
http://www.goal.com/en/Articolo.aspx?ContenutoId=566844



He actually thinks the CL is harder to win.

Yes there was a 5 year plan but surely if year 4 has been a massive step back why bother giving him year 5?

On point a) This one is relative, but if you look at Uniteds domestic success, but with only one Champions league, it does tend to look that way. At the end of the day there is usually only 3 challenging for the league at any one time, in the champions league any one of 10 or 15 teams have a great chance, so in that sense its harder.

On point b) We're playing rubbish right now, but you'd be nuts to look at our squad now compared to when Rafa joined and say we're not much much better off. He's worth a final year to add another top class player and try to get them playing like they can.

Helix wrote: »

i dont think itd be a knee jerk reaction to sack rafa at this stage

Personally I think it would be insanity to fire him mid-season. Also the comment was made based on what madrid would do if they were off the pace for a year, not on liverpools current position.

kida

~Rebel~ wrote: »

On point b) We're playing rubbish right now, but you'd be nuts to look at our squad now compared to when Rafa joined and say we're not much much better off. He's worth a final year to add another top class player and try to get them playing like they can.

on paper the squad is better - so why are they going backwards? simple answer - the manager

~Rebel~

Yes

kida wrote: »

on paper the squad is better - so why are they going backwards? simple answer - the manager

On paper the squad is better, and on the field its about as bad right now. (Do you forget how bad we were in Houlliers last 2 years?). We've only gone backwards from Rafa's own success benchmark.

Given the fact that a change of manager would more then likely set us back a few years anyway, we may as well give Rafa his year. He's changed everything in the club, all the youth is his, all the staff are his, I dont really want us going back to square one before giving this every chance.

missingtime

Yes

kida wrote: »

on paper the squad is better - so why are they going backwards? simple answer - the manager

The ****e with the board that we've had to deal with this season?

Look, we are not Newcastle (yet ) so we'll see what happens, he deserves to finish his contract anyway.

PHB

No

If you ignore all the stuff about the past, and say Rafa has done a decent enough job at rebuilding from a poor position [And it really is unfair to compare him to Wenger, Wenger is an absurdly special manager who has built a title challenging team, gotten to a CL final, on a net spend of like 1 million, amazing]

Look at Rafa taking them to the next level, has he shown he's able to do it?
He can't get the best out of his current team.
Maybe if he gets new players they'll be better, of that I've no doubt, but Rafa can't find a decent formation or system to get the best out of the players he currently has. Kevin Philips managed to get 30 goals one season, he's was better than Kuyt. Fergie managed to go on an incredible run of wins with Giggs and O'Shea in midfield. Rafa can't decide on a system, and can't seem to get the best out of his players. I don't think he will.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

No (Liverpool fans)

Benitez is not capable of winning the Premier League, end of story. Even taking the background **** out of the way, he's too conservative. Example - Mascherano is a defensive midfielder - who play him agains Havant and Waterlooville?

The draws are a testament to this - we won't be beaten often, but we won't win often either. There's an arrogance about Liverpool that they almost assumed they'd be in the hunt with a minimal workload, avoiding defeat and winning the occasional game. Then they realise somewhere about the 60-minute mark that they're being bossed around, make a few susbsititions and start playing, but by that stage it's too late.

We need creative, attacking midfielders/wingers. Not defensive kindpins. We needed either a Walcott, Tevez or someone like that, but I don't think that'll ever happen with Benitez on board and, even if he does sign them, will he field them from the start?

PHB

No

The draws are the issue. Rafa is too conservative, and doesn't know how to win games. He would prefer a draw to risking defeat or victory. That works great in cups, but you can't win the league on penalties, and that means you can win the league on drawing games.

As for replacements? Mourinho would do better I think.

Killme00

Of the 20 premiership managersi would like to see where Rafa stands in tersm of ability. Definite behind Wenger and Ferguson. Possibly behind ONeill but on a par with Harry Rednapp and David Moyes

joe123

No (Liverpool fans)

Martin O neill has got Aston Villa doing far better than us...and hes spent ALOT less than rafa. If it was David Moores still in charge and not the americans I bet the fans would be on Rafas back alot more.

Hes done some great things for us, but he just can cut it in the league. His record against the top 3 is terrible. Weve won like 4 games against them since he took over.


Can anyone point me in the direction to a video of where Gerrard shakes his head at rafa from last night?

PHB

No

I don't see how you can possibly say he is on par with O'Neill. He has won La Liga, twice. He has won the Champions Leauge. That's just ludicrous.
Maybe you could say Moyes has potential or something, and could overtake Rafa, but in terms of looking at them, it's ludicrous to put him anywhere but 3rd.

joe123

No (Liverpool fans)

PHB wrote: »

I don't see how you can possibly say he is on par with O'Neill. He has won La Liga, twice. He has won the Champions Leauge. That's just ludicrous.
Maybe you could say Moyes has potential or something, and could overtake Rafa, but in terms of looking at them, it's ludicrous to put him anywhere but 3rd.

Its unfair to compare trophies won with O neill. Id be willing to bet anyting if O neill took over liverpool or any Big club hed do great things.

The way liverpool play is bad. If you just look at preformances we just dont look like a good team.

We are far to conservative.We have alot of **** players. We have alot of **** players who Rafa CONSTANTLY picks.

And hes only started picking torres regularly since we started drawing with teams such as wigan. Its not good enough.